should a BO/BM know how to do IV shots?? In case of an emergency (as Banamine is risky doing IM but works more quickly when injected?)? I've worked for multiple people that didn't know how to do it, I don't know how to do it, but I'm thinking that might be a nice skill to have (although probably not for me- paranoia of doing something wrong..). I've known people that knew how to do it and were not Vet Techs, and either worked as one or had to learn for some other reason. Just curious how many of you all out there know how to do it. Doesn't seem like it would be too terribly hard to do, but if you've never been taught it doesn't seem like a good idea to attempt it..
Now here's where it gets tricky.. WHO'S horses you can IV. I have been in the tricky position more than once, of having to make a decision about a litigation-happy owner and the needle in my hand, holding something the far-away vet has advised me to give them.
Could a BO/BM be liable if he/she does an IV and hits the artery instead of the vein. It would be bad enough if a vet did it but a BO/BM has had no formal education. Would an insurance company pay up if this happened?
The problem that is in most states, there are laws preventing a person like a BM from giving injections to someone else's horse (especially without the owner present and giving explicit permission). These states consider it a vet's job.
Can you imagine the liability if you were BM, you give a IV injection, some freak reaction happened, and the horse died? Can you really afford a good enough lawyer to protect you from that lawsuit?
I'd be a little wary of a BO or BM who's bragging they'll do shots and other treamtents on just anyone's horse. Some people don't have the respect they need to about injections, injectable medications, and reactions.
However, that being said, it would be nice from an academic point of view if they knew how to, even if they didn't do it themselves. A BO should be well educated in all aspects of horse care. How will they spot a bad vet if they don't know much about care & rely on their vet to tell them how to think?
I'm a BO and I don't do IV shots period. If IV is needed, I suggest that my boarders do what I do, call a vet. I'm fine with IM shots, but the liability exposure for the IV shots is huge. Better to pay the vet.
What about when the vet can't get there? We are out in the middle of nowhere.. my vet RELIES on me to be able to do IV's. Things get tricky when it's not my horse. I recently had a horse choke and was threatened - in a rather veiled way - by the owner, that if I did what the vet told me to do (he was attending a colic, my choke rated under that) and her horse died, I was going to be in deep S***.
This is a pretty serious issue, regardless of care, custody and control insurance.
Hollywood, but not the one where they have the Oscars!
I have it in my boarding agreement that I have permission to give both iv and im shots and that either may kill the horse. They have to initial those items before they can board here. I would not board my horse somewhere that didnt have someone around who was capable of giving both kinds of shots. I live in the land of no vets, and your horse could die waiting on one just to call you back around here.
"You can't really debate with someone who has a prescient invisible friend"
I can give IM, SQ as well as IV injections. I have managed breedings farms in the past. I will treat the owners horses (I do inform them about the potential risks when the subject comes up for the first time) but will only treat client's horses on the advise of a veterinarian.
I worked as a vet assistant for 3 years. I have given hundreds of IVs by now and feel very comfortable doing it but I am always VERY careful. I am aware of the risks.
A BO/BM should not be treating clients horses with out permission.
Injectable banamine can be given IM, IV or orally. It is not risky to give banamine IM. The formation of an abcess at the injection site is rare and only significantly increases with frequent IM injections in the same area.
Why not get banamine paste or simply use the injectable orally? This works very well for a mild colics.
Give me a real life example of a situation where this would be the case.
Most recent was a choke. Vet prioritized the colic he was treating over it. Had to give the horse 10cc Banamine IV, of course the Ace could have been done orally or IM but ideally, IV.
Before that, was my own horse, but could have been anyone else's... got into a nest of hornets. Needed Dex RIGHT NOW. Really could have been a bad one as the horse was thrashing and rolling around, trying to rub it's body all over the ground.
Why? DVMs can't. That's why we carry hefty insurance policies.
Do people actually file claims against you when an IV goes wrong? Not being facetious, I am truly curious. I think the big issue might be how it is viewed by the owner.
Yes I think they should know how to do it. Saying that I have never do it. The Vet and I have talked and he thinks I should know how but we never have time. He has said if I even need to do it fast he will talk me thoght it on the phone and that even with out him he knows I could do it if need be. Next time he is hear I will make him show me a few times
If a horse is about to die, I would fully expect to watch it die vs have any thoughts of IV's or injections.
When I was 14 I basically watched a horse beginning to die after witnessing a terrible set of circumstances that could have been prevented had the owner known better. This took place at the boarding barn my horse was kept at. It was a Sunday afternoon and the BO was away but boarders were allowed to come on out and ride their horses anyway. Well, that changed after this accident.
The horse was going to die even though the Vet was able to arrive minutes before it took its last breath. There was simply nothing that could be done. It was horrible and I am sure the Vet even felt helpless.
I board one horse and I would NOT give any IV injections...not even to my own horses or ponies. I can't think of any IV that could truly save a horse or pony in an emergency.
I guess I am in an odd situation.. my vet will even ask me to pull blood and bring it to where she is. I have been expected to run IV's for fluids. Everything gets treated as being very routine.
The choke horse.. he was in pretty bad shape. And chokes can go from bad to very bad very quickly.. the vet that I spoke with was adamant that he get banamine/ace immediately. Given the nature of the issue, oral meds would not work. And giving banamine IM is not a good idea, as we all know. I think I was stuck there between the rock and the hard place.
My horse that was in the hornets nest could not be controlled or contained, he was in so much pain and freaking out so badly. It was very hard to IV him. I was surprised that as much as he was thrashing nothing went wrong. Luckily he has veins like the Brooklyn tunnel and I can pretty much go on feel/pull back after all these years.
Give me a real life example of a situation where this would be the case.
Originally Posted by Tree
I can't think of any IV that could truly save a horse or pony in an emergency.
While working as a barn foreman for a large TB farm, I had a yearling colic, and turn very bad very quick. When I was not able to reach the yearling manager, broodmare manager, or owner by phone, I gave the horse banamine IV. This was a horse who was sweating from his eyeballs and falling to the ground, I am quite sure I did the right thing.
I have only done IV a couple a couple of times, I am not comfortable doing that....I have helped with other emergencies and whatnot, and can give IM without any trouble, but cannot stick my own. Go figure. If it was a dire emergency, I had the drug in one hand and the vet on the phone in the other, telling me how to do it-I would. But boarders know, call the vet, I ain't one