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  1. #41
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    Merriam-Webster says the following Main Entry: ac·ci·dent
    Pronunciation: 'ak-s&-d&nt, -"dent; 'aks-d&nt
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin accident-, accidens nonessential quality, chance, from present participle of accidere to happen, from ad- + cadere to fall -- more atCHANCE
    1 a : an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstance b : lack of intention or necessity

    Car accidents happen when something unanticipated happens for sure; tire blows out, another driver does something you didn't think they would, there is a hazard in the road. No one would drive if they weren't reasonably sure they could anticipate what could happen more often than not. Isn't the thrill of eventing in surviving the risk? To undertake something risky means you acknowledge the danger involved. We do that. The horses don't. Yes, they can be injured in their stalls or pasture, but that happens as part of their natural existence. I think being ridden falls outside to that. Afterall they are engaging in the activity we chose. I believe some horses really enjoy it, but it is our deal, not theirs. And I do believe we are responsible for their wellbeing.


    My intention was to have this thread be a parody, a display of irony (hence the Alanis Morrissette reference), something to provoke thought, with a little humor.

    For the record, I don't think eventing is abusive. But using the same arguements that people use against rolkur, it is easy to make it appear so. I am not aware of rolkur causing the death of a horse. I have seen a couple of horses die as the result of eventing crashes. I am not saying what happens in eventing justifies rolkur. I am saying that we all justify things because of our interests. That doesn't make us abusive neccessarily.
    See those flying monkeys? They work for me.



  2. #42
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    SarCHASM. (n). the gap between the author of sarcastic wit and the recipient who doesn't get it.
    RedMare01: Love it. I have to remember that one.



  3. #43
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    how about sar-schism that is what's happening here



  4. #44

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    thank you for making yourself more clear.

    I was laughing (i even posted on it before!) until a few posts made me think you were serious, and others found it serious.

    I have been following the rk threads b/c i find it interesting, but I don't bash anything anyone says about it- i'm interested in finding out where it will all go.

    I just get by breeches in a twist (not my underwear- remember, eventers go comando ) when people start bashing eventing.
    "Do you care, or don’t you care? Because if you do care, you better speak up now or take what you get."
    — Denny Emerson www.savethe3day.org
    **proud member of the trakehNERD group**



  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhwr
    1 a : an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstance b : lack of intention or necessity

    And a horse falling on x-c is not a planned event, nor is it the intention or a necessity. So you still don't have a leg to stand on.



    "For the record, I don't think eventing is abusive. But using the same arguements that people use against rolkur, it is easy to make it appear so."


    And this is where I think you ARE serious. And as I said in my first post, you CANNOT compare the two. Event horses WANT to jump cross country. Yes, they may fall if they make a bad enough mistake. But they are still happy with what they are doing. Rollkur horses do not want to be forced to hold their nose to their chest. You can't physically force a horse over a jump. But you CAN force their nose to their chest.



  6. #46
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    Default lstevenson, I am comparing the two.

    A horse falling on course can certainly be forseen. Aren't there rules about timing and such, if a jump has to be reset after a crash? Don't rider wear safety gear? Seems like planning to me. Some horses may like eventing, but not all do. I have seen horses that prefer to travel with their poll low and BTV. What can we make of that? It may be possible to make a horse jump somthing it doesn't want to. Do you carry a whip or wear spurs when you ride cross country? I have to wonder why. I have seen many horses beaten over a fence, so evidently a lot of people disagree about that. And I believe Ludger Beerbaum can do anything
    Last edited by nhwr; Jun. 7, 2006 at 12:22 AM.
    See those flying monkeys? They work for me.



  7. #47
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    lstevenson, it was an example to see a point, not a bash on eventing. One can twist ANYTHING to make it seem abusive or harmless. The two are comparable in that way, those pictures can make it seem that eventing is abusive to horses and the same goes for rollkur. Anything can be twisted to what people want to say or think. What is the truth then?

    whooops, started typing before you posted!



  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhwr
    A horse falling on course can certainly be forseen.

    So can some idiot pulling into your lane in traffic. But it's still an accident.


    "Don't rider wear safety gear? Seems like planning to me"

    And don't drivers wear seat belts? And have cars with airbags? And shop around for the safest car? Because they know accidents are likely.


    "Some horses may like eventing, but not all do."

    Right, but the ones that make it to the upper levels (where your dramatic falls sometimes happen) do love it. They wouldn't have made it to that level if they didn't.


    "I have seen horses that prefer to travel with their poll low and BTV."

    I have never seen a horse that prefered to be FORCED into that positon.



    "It may be possible to make a horse jump somthing it doesn't want to. Do you carry a whip or wear spurs when you ride cross country? I have to wonder why. I have seen many horses beaten over a fence, so evidently a lot of people disagree about that."

    Nope. It is still the horse's decision. A whip or spurs can encourage a horse to give a certain jump a try that he may be unsure about. But it won't force him over. Just ask anyone who has gotten the big E for 3 refusals. You can, however, force a horse to put his nose on his chest and hold it there.


    nhwr-

    I understand you were trying to compare the alleged "abuse" associated with Rollkur with "abuse" in eventing. I'm saying it's not an intelligent comparison. It's apples to oranges.



  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeepers
    lstevenson, it was an example to see a point, not a bash on eventing.
    I now see that, thanks. But I still think it doesn't work. The point is not valid.



  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by lstevenson
    I now see that, thanks. But I still think it doesn't work. The point is not valid.
    to quote myself...
    Anything can be twisted to what people want to say or think. What is the truth then?



  11. #51
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    Default Let me connect the dots for you, lstevenson

    since you seem to be struggling By using certain kinds of arguements (like saying a group photos, selected to show problems, represent the sum total of an experience, by making emotional appeals with flowery language or framing questions in such a way as to make any possible answer unacceptable) it is possible to make an apparently logical arguement out of nonsense. It can be done with eventing, it can be done with rolkur. That doesn't make the result meaningful.
    See those flying monkeys? They work for me.



  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhwr
    since you seem to be struggling By using certain kinds of arguements (like saying a group photos, selected to show problems, represent the sum total of an experience, by making emotional appeals with flowery language or framing questions in such a way as to make any possible answer unacceptable) it is possible to make an apparently logical arguement out of nonsense. It can be done with eventing, it can be done with rolkur. That doesn't make the result meaningful.

    Again, I see what you were trying to do. I STILL don't think it works. There are plenty of "happy" cross country photos out there. Show me a "happy" Rollkur photo.



  13. #53
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    I think the horse (or is it an ass?) in the last picture is getting some nice stretch.
    Jennifer Walker
    Proud owner of Capt Han Solo+, Arabian stallion http://www.capthansolo.com
    Author, freelance writer http://www.authorjennwalker.com



  14. #54
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    Default Obtuse?

    Tell ya what, lstevenson. Show me a picture of a horse that is glad to be involved in a fall on cross country so we are comparing problems to problems and I'll get right to work on it. There are plenty of photos of, say, Anky or Gal's horse performing well, just like there are photos of horses loving their jobs on cross country. But somehow those pics just don't show up much in the discussions.
    See those flying monkeys? They work for me.



  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhwr
    Tell ya what, show me a picture of a horse that is glad to be involved in a fall on cross country and I'll get right to work on it. There are plenty of photos of, say, Anky or Gal's horse performing well, just like there are photos of horses loving their jobs on cross country. But somehow those pics just don't show up much in the discussions.

    Obtuse is right. Let me redefine it for you. Rollkur is a forced, unnatural position, not Anky perfoming in the ring in a normal frame. So if you showed me pictures of Anky in the ring in the normal position, you would NOT be showing me a picture of Rollkur.

    THERE ARE NO GOOD ROLLKUR PICTURES! Rollkur is a planned action. They do it every day. They do it on purpose! A fall is an accident.



  16. #56
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    Default Well, at least we have some agreement.

    It isn't that subtle. But if you don't get it, you don't get it.

    Rolkur is a response to a problem. Most people would agree pics of problems aren't usually pleasant. You know, like a horse crashing a fence? Yeah, that is the point
    See those flying monkeys? They work for me.



  17. #57
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    nhwr,
    I am an ex-eventer and I gotta agree with you - those accident pictures make me cringe and feel ashamed when non-horse people ask me about those accidents. I have a horse who would have jumped off the edge of the world for me - why?- just because I asked her to and she trusted me. It's quite a responsiblity to worry about when you have a horse who does anything you want just because she adores you.... I think a lot of event horses jump for us for just this reason and don't even consider if they like it or not. The "partnership" is what it is all it is about, and a good partner won't let you down. I don't necessarily like those pictures of RK either, but I reserve judgment until I actually see someone riding with this method. Unfortunately, there are excesses and abuses in all of the equestrian disciplines. It's our jobs as the owner/riders to prevent these abuses from running away with us and our horses just because it's the "thing to do" at the time. Sometimes making that choice for our horses comes at the expense of our own aspirations. These are hard choices...



  18. #58
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    "Well, at least we have some agreement. "


    No we don't , I was talking about you!

    For the 10th time, I get what you are saying. I'm saying it's not an intelligent comparison.

    And Rollkur is not a correct response to a problem. What is the problem that can't be solved in the classical, correct way?



  19. #59
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    Default fergie






    lstevenson,

    most people seem to get the point. Sorry you are having a hard time.
    See those flying monkeys? They work for me.



  20. #60
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    And are you having a hard time answering my question?

    You say Rollkur is a response to a problem.

    I asked you:


    "What is the problem that can't be solved in the classical, correct way?"



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