[Wall of text warning] Started Equi-Winner patched yesterday...
A few years ago, my Holsteiner x TB mare used to have really bad tying up issues (meaning, after almost every ride!). We did all kinds of diet and exercise changes, took a muscle biopsy (negative for the genetic version of PSSM). Finally, with no other options left, I used the Equiwinner patches June of 2011, and she stopped tying up, but came down with cellulitis in all four legs, of course while I was on study abroad in France!
We dealt with pretty severe anhidrosis all last year (and we're in Georgia). It evened out with some One AC and dark beer, but never really improved that much. The patches are supposed to work for that as well, but I didn't want to risk her swelling up during show season! Now we're not showing due to my new ish job.
On Thursday, I drove up to the barn to see her and her pony friend galloping around like fools, but I didn't really think that much of it. Just tacked up and warmed up as usual (pretty long warm ups because of the tying up history). About ten minutes into actual work, she started tying up again! I'm hoping it was a one time thing, but now I live about an hour away from the barn, so I can't afford to go out there every day to walk her for 20 minutes and carefully regulate her exercise like I did a couple years ago when it started.
So I'm trying the patches again... and praying that there aren't any side effects. When I asked the Signal Health company last time, they told me it was unrelated, which I'm not sure that I believe. But I decided I would risk her legs swelling if it would fix the tying up as well as anhidrosis.
I know several people on here have used these patches. Has anyone dealt with or heard of any odd side effects? I'm really hoping they fix everything... Voodoo magic or otherwise.
I completely agree with his stance... Except that it worked for me last time! I really thought it wasn't going to have any effect at all, but at that point we had already spent minimum a couple thousand for vet appointments (giving fluids, banamine/other drugs, etc), so it was kind of a what the heck why not try it kind of thing.
I definitely think their 'science' is shaky... As he says in that article, they don't quote from any actually scientific publications!
But, if it works, I guess I'm not going to argue. Hopefully they'll be easy to work with if it doesn't. I know they have a money back guarantee (but it worked for me last time), and I've heard that some people had no problem getting their money back but other people had a hard time getting a hold of a real human being.
I'm guessing you've already checked it, and everything else known to man, but what are her Se levels like? I have a tyer-upper, and the thing that has controlled it is getting his Se levels up--low/average is not enough. He needs to be at the higher end of average. We don't live in a particularly low Se area, he just needs solidly supplementing with it.
Yep we did that. Her's came back fine, but I added a multivitamin with some in it anyway just to be safe.
What really throws me is that we evented at novice level from Jan to middle of May last year without any tying up. I'm wondering how much her fitness level has to do with it, because I was really intense about planning/slowly and carefully getting her fit, and with this job (until daylight savings) I was only riding on weekends.
Tried them last year on my non-sweater. I got through 7 patches with the only sweat happening right under the button on the patch. I gave up at that point. I will say the company promptly gave me my money back, so I didn't lose out on anything.
Anhidrosis, tying up, head shaking . . . all of the things this patch is supposed to "fix" are the types of things that vary in severity, come and go, and defy pinning down WRT timing, triggers, and severity in many cases. Which is perfect for "voodoo" (to use the vernacular) or belief-based practices--try it enough times, in enough individuals, and you are BOUND to get the timing just right SOME of the time where the animal was going to go through a period of improvement anyway. Wham--there's another believer.
This kind of bad science is so monstrous and appalling to me that I literally have to work myself up to tackling it. And since I'm leaving for a badly-needed vacation in exactly 58 hours, I'm going to have to pass this time around. Y'all are on your own.
what delta said.
Were it simply a case of this patch "curing" one or another of these multifactorial and/or poorly understood problems, it would be suspicious enough, but the panacea-like claims are what really set my bovine excrement detector into the red zone.
If you are starting a colt and he acts up, roll up a newspaper and hit yourself over the head, saying "bad trainer, bad trainer!"--Bluey
Figuring the odds. How many people bother to demand money back. So you pay off those that do, and still run happily to the bank.
This risk/reward ratio is calculated pretty carefully for products like this and I can't remember the statistics but the rate of people asking for their refund is part of the calculation of how much to charge for the product and shipping. All coldly calculated beforehand. A pity that much thought isn't put into actual R&D.
Yesterday was day 3/10. The BO said 'I don't know what those are supposed to do, but she is pooping EVERYWHERE!' ^_^
There was sweat under the patch, but she didn't work enough to sweat otherwise.
Longed her for 15 min (just a halter, no side reins or anything) to see how she was moving. Definitely still stiff behind Then we went for a short hack, mostly walking with some 2 point trot. She was stiff but was quite forward in the trot, so at least she seems to feel okay. Unfortunately I can see and feel a knotted muscle in her left butt cheek (haha) but the massage therapist is coming out tomorrow so hopefully that will help.
We are the distributor of Equiwinner patches in the US & Canada. They are developed in the UK and we can assure you that there are absolutely no side effects.
Since Equiwinner works through communication with the body's cell signaling system, nothing is being forced. You cannot convince the body to cause itself harm. Also, with Equiwinner, nothing goes into the body of the horse. The body recognizes the electrolytes in the patches and responds to them because the body wants to heal. Think of it like when you cut yourself. Your body will automatically heal the cut.
Also, there is a lot of research being done regarding electrolyte activity. Michigan State University has linked defective electrolyte transport with equine anhidrosis. Tying-up has been linked to abnormal calcium ion regulation. It's not well understood yet.
We have so many testimonials, many from respected horse people in the industry, including the Chronicle's own blogger, Lauren Sprieser.
We encourage anyone to contact us if they have any concerns or questions. We'd be more than happy to help you. Please call 877-378-4946 or visit www.signal-health.com.
communication with the body's cell signaling system
The body recognizes the electrolytes in the patches and responds to them
What does that mean, precisely? You can use big words; I am fluent in science-speak, the scientific method, and in physiology. Please go ahead and give me the big, scientific explanation. I can take it. By all means, go into very significant detail. I shall wait with bated breath.
You cannot convince the body to cause itself harm
Umm. Cancer. Lupus. Blatantly incorrect, pal.
Also, there is a lot of research being done regarding electrolyte activity
A pity none of it was done by your company before selling this ridiculous bit of crap. There's a lot of research into shlocky marketing, bogus advertising, and the gullibility of the average human being, as well. All far more relevant here.
Tying up has been linked to abnormal calcium ion regulation
This is what we call the non-sequitur fallacy. Or in my circle, "true, possibly true, and unrelated". Next?
We have so many testimonials
THE WORST form of pseudoscience. Appalling and unconscionable. Shame on you.
My friend uses it on her horse who is a really bad head shaker. They said it took a few days to work, but it did work and he has used it now for about 5 years.
They stop the patch over the winter, but use it in the spring summer and fall. He still does head shake slightly, and when its time to change the patch they notice his head shaking gets worse. They also use a nose net, but the difference is seriously quite large. She was actually able to take him back in the hunter ring at an A show, he was THAT much better.
The company has apparenly been very good to deal with. They were late getting a shipment out, and send an entire box for free.
Could easily be voodoo, but this particular horse responds really well to it. Why? No idea,but he does.
A friend of mine tried it for her horse with lymphangitis, and there was no change at all.
Im really a skeptical person, and rely heavily on proven veterinary medicine. However, in some circumstances things "work" for some animals and not others.
If you simply believe that a product like this "works" with no good reason, randomly and with no plausible explanation, you are not actually a skeptical person.
A story like that makes me think there is something else going on, not that a product with no scientific reason for working is actually doing something.
When things get better "on their own" that sometimes means we're dealing with something we don't understand completely. Not that there is any magic at work. And as this product seems to work via magic, not actual physiologic principles, I would say that responses are more in the former category: things sometimes just get better.
I have no problem with beliefs or in the possibility of supernatural phenomena. But they are not things that blend nicely with physiology. If the product would work just as well if it were marketed under the category of "magic", it makes one wonder.