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  1. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by leyla25 View Post
    Well this person also reported a pony death the previous year. If I can remember correctly the pony died in the paddock of a "freak" accident. Coincidently the pony was in the market for 300K or to lease and although it had a good record it had no takers, and the daughter was out of the smalls.
    If you think Mandarino has defrauded an insurance company, please nail her to the wall.

    But appreciate, too, that that's a separate issue from the several we have been discussing: What the USEF owes her, or vice versa. What USEF members demand from their governing body. Mandarino as an unattractive tip of an even uglier iceberg of drugging in the hunter divisions.
    Last edited by mvp; Feb. 13, 2013 at 02:21 PM.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


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  2. #282
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    Hey mvp,

    I think your quoting got all messed up. I think you wanted leyla25's post. She also messed up the quoting so that my post (first two paragraphs) looks like it is her post.

    I have said nothing about EM defrauding insurance companies.
    Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
    Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"



  3. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by RugBug View Post
    Hey mvp,

    I think your quoting got all messed up. I think you wanted leyla25's post. She also messed up the quoting so that my post (first two paragraphs) looks like it is her post.

    I have said nothing about EM defrauding insurance companies.
    Yeah, the quoting was fubar. I was speaking to leyla and I'll fix it.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  4. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by leyla25 View Post
    There is nothing fair about judging most of the time. Why do you think people pay hefty fees to have a so called BNT stand at the ingate?
    Wow! Good information. And, all this time I thought my trainer stood at the in gate watching my round(s) so we could discuss it later while sipping a nice libation back at the stalls.

    However, sometimes he just can't wait and will give me whatfor the instant I clear the gate. I'm sure, in some instances, the judge is getting a big laugh at my expense.
    Fan of the Swedish Chef



  5. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by RugBug View Post
    Um...people ride with BNTs because those BNTs usually know how to train to that level. They understand that details that many little, to no-name trainers do not.

    For example: I ride with a lovely trainer. She's kind. She's honest, She's fair. She's in my budget. She, however, could not train me to be competitive in the AA hunter ring. She knows this. It has nothing to do with her not being a big enough name to stand at the ingate to get me ribbons. It has to do with her not having the skill set and knowledge base to train me to that level.

    IMO, most people who insist that the ingate BNT is responsible for success of their clients, really don't understand the details involved with training/rider to that level.
    Please do not confuse training with with the term BNT's, If all it took was GOOD training we wouldn't need all those meds , now would we.

    Everyone complains but know one has answers because after all what can any of us little people do??? and so it goes , on and on and on.


    7 members found this post helpful.

  6. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by Go Fish View Post
    Wow! Good information. And, all this time I thought my trainer stood at the in gate watching my round(s) so we could discuss it later while sipping a nice libation back at the stalls.

    However, sometimes he just can't wait and will give me whatfor the instant I clear the gate. I'm sure, in some instances, the judge is getting a big laugh at my expense.
    Whether or not it is true, my old trainers thought it was.

    Years ago, the husband of the husband and wife team I trained with flew back to SF for the Grand National Horse Show (aka Cow Palace) just to stand at the back gate. The show had hired a judge from the East, and it was his first time judging in California. While his wife did all the training, the husband stood there as his people went into the ring. He wanted to make sure that the judge knew who his clients were.

    I thought it was crazy at the time, but since then I have come to believe that it matters, even if only a little bit.

    There is a reason for the distinctive WHOOPS! that trainers use.

    Sort of like a male dog marketing his territory.
    "I used to have money, now I have horses."


    4 members found this post helpful.

  7. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by MIKES MCS View Post
    Please do not confuse training with with the term BNT's, If all it took was GOOD training we wouldn't need all those meds , now would we.
    Please do not confuse the chip on your shoulder with any sort of critical thinking. It certainly is easier to determine that all BNTs are only that because they use "all those med", then to realize that some are subverting real training with needles and some actually know what they are doing.
    Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
    Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"


    4 members found this post helpful.

  8. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by RugBug View Post
    Please do not confuse the chip on your shoulder with any sort of critical thinking. It certainly is easier to determine that all BNTs are only that because they use "all those med", then to realize that some are subverting real training with needles and some actually know what they are doing.
    I think I might love you (in an entirely non-creepy way haha).


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  9. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by RugBug View Post
    Please do not confuse the chip on your shoulder with any sort of critical thinking. It certainly is easier to determine that all BNTs are only that because they use "all those med", then to realize that some are subverting real training with needles and some actually know what they are doing.
    Meh, MIKES MCS has a point.

    I don't think BNTs are immune from using drugs for performance enhancement. Typically, they have a great deal of skill, clients who will buy great horses and good working relationships with vets who can supply the rest.

    And remember that this particular pony died at Devon, no backyard horse show. If we only saw horses dying at B shows and below.... if we only saw the rank, fugly, lame or clearly outclassed horses collapsing at these big shows, you could arguable rescue the top trainers from suspicion. But that's not what happened in this case. It's also what we should worry about. After all, if the very nice hunter needs pharmaceutical help, where does that leave the pretty good hunter? What happens at the top and how that raises the judging bar so high that the lesser horses who are well trained still can't be competitive is one of the reasons everyone but the uber-rich should worry.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


    2 members found this post helpful.

  10. #290
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    RugBug, please don't confuse reality with a chip , I have no Chip .. And I don't believe all BNT's owe their success solely to a needle, but I do believe it is a major part of the training routine for a majortiy of them, just as it's a major part of a race horse trainers regime . You can disagree or bury your head in the sand all you want but the reality lies in the needle boxes in every shed row at every rated show. red shot , hunter round, call it whatever you like , many trainers call it vitamins , it's performance enhancing drugs, it exsists , it's common , and it's not going away any time soon.


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  11. #291
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    'K, you guys, I'm doing a spin-off on who does the drugging.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  12. #292
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    MVP , thanks , when a twitch of the ear or a squeal through a corner, a flip of a tail gets you elimanted from a prize when your round was otherwise perfect , the only recourse is take away a horses natural expression and you can't do that with training ,


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  13. #293
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    Or maybe just have a horse with the right temperament to do the hunters? I have to tell you, I've shown a lot of horses who were well-behaved in that scenario and gosh, none of them had any chemical assistance... remarkable.


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  14. #294
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    I demand that the USEF give me several million dollars and allow me to go back in time, so that I can start riding career as a child, rather than as an adult. (I promise the money will be used solely to fund my riding.)


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  15. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    I don't think BNTs are immune from using drugs for performance enhancement.
    Um. I didn't say they were. Please read again. I will even sum up for those that missed it: Some do, some don't.

    I agree with MIKES MCS that hunter judging standards need to change to allow for expression, brilliance, a bit of play here or there, whatever you want to call it. But just because some horses don't ever feel the need to play, doesn't mean they've been stuck or the trainer is a pusher.

    I've read post after post after post of MIKES MCS that would lead ME to believe there is a large chip on his shoulder. Maybe there's not, but it's the impression he's left on me.

    Back to the thread at hand: th particular "trainer" in questions seems to fall into the "pusher" category, with little to no doubt.
    Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
    Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"


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  16. #296
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    I respect all opinions and if you want to believe that only good training is the reason why you get more ribbons with the BNTs that is alright. But from what I observe, and heard at the shows I have a different opinion. I've heard trainers telling judges which kids need a win to qualify for the George Morris class by the end of week ten. And I've seen the results. That is no chip. It's reallity. Maybe that trainer is done a big favor to that judge, like buying some of his horses. Not implying every judge does it, but definetely goes on. And same for the drugs not everyone does it but we can all tell the look on those horse eyes.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  17. #297
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    I ride with a BNT and have for more than half my life.. I know what goes on in our barn and I can tell you it's nothing more nefarious than Adequan or Legend for some of the older horses or a legal amount of an NSAID at the appropriate time. Egads!

    I don't know, I'm just hesitant, due to my experiences, to believe that BNTs got that way not by being good at what they do, but by being good pharmacologists. Some? Maybe... but I'm not so sure.


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  18. #298
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    Arrow

    Quote Originally Posted by RugBug View Post
    Now, the logic on this does not follow. If anyone else but EM accidentally causes the death of their horse, they are "reducing the death to a business transaction" if they seek any insurance money?

    I know it's hard to separate the emotion from this, but there are plenty of legitimate accidental deaths at the hands of owners and they are not automatically bad people for "actively pursue any compensation."

    If you meant that EM shouldn't seek compensation because she "accidentally" killed the pony while illegally drugging it...then I agree.
    Exactly what are all the legitimate accidental deaths caused by owners? I'm not talking about a pony who gets into the feed room, pigs out, founders and has to be put down. Outside of administering a med IV without knowing your horses allergic response, I can't think of any. Please enlighten me with several examples so I can avoid accidentally putting any of my equines down. Thanks.
    PS. I realize horses/ponies have fatal or potentially fatal accidents from time to time...getting cast, colicking, running into something, or just tangling with another horse. I'm only referring to 'legitimate accidental deaths caused by owner.



  19. #299
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    The best BNT's know what they're doing. While they may be at WEF or HITS for several months, their horses get time off, they get turn out, they are wrapped and protected and when the series is over, the horses get a month off, while the trainer may take a break or start some of their babies in local venues. They don't need to campaign 52 weeks a year. They get their horses qualified for indoors or for Zones without wearing the horse out. Their clients can afford nice horses and they do their job by making up or finding nice horses for those clients. Do they medicate? I'm sure they do, when appropriate, but as has been said before, most BNTs didn't just appear from nowhere. They worked hard, usually for decades, to attain that level. Some have undoubtedly slipped and decided that medicating to win is easier than training, but I'd bet that they're the minority. A lot of those trainers compete actively. I can't easily believe they'd put their career on the line by riding horses that could collapse beneath them.
    I guess what Im really saying is that a real trainer doesn't (as an amateur) buy a bunch of successful equines and the following year, let their 'trainer' go and assume that title themselves because they own so many winners. That trainers only hope is likely to be found in the medicine cabinet because their actual knowledge is limited primarily to observation. I know I'd hate to be a passenger in a plane where the pilot had never flown but had watched pilots on TV a lot. Lol


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  20. #300
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    You can argue that "the best" BNTs don't use performance-enhancing drugs....but I've seen those names (yes, the BIG BNTs) in the back of the USEF magazine on plenty of occasions over the years.

    Must be a lot of mixed-up buckets at those shows.
    Whatever.


    4 members found this post helpful.

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