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  1. #141
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    Jan. 18, 2004
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    Wow! Thanks for the great information.



  2. #142
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    Dec. 30, 2006
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    G - The standardbred is a foundation horse in several american breeds. Many are great gaiting horses in their own right.
    from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor



  3. #143
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    Feb. 8, 2001
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    Canada
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    Sorry. I didn't get to the canter part. I found the first 10 seconds so disgusting that I stopped watching. Poor poor horses.



  4. #144
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    Nov. 11, 2009
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    I apologize Guilherme for steppin on such a awesome post, well, researched and written..so folks when you finish reading my thing..please back to her..that is more important..history


    My wife wants me to copy her on things I write, says, it might be a book…I say nonsense..but I do it cuz my kids said they wanted to know the details I have been doing to tell their kids..

    So today,…I have been having a running gun battle with KY State Senator Robin Webb..who received 2 federal felony tickets for scar rules violation which she plead guilty too and received a 2 year suspension.
    Well, Jennie kinda put all of the post in order, so I thought I’d share


    Do the Right Thang conversation:

    http://www.twhbea.com/News%202012/12...dorSenWebb.php



    Nathan's 1ST Letter to Senator:

    The Honorable Senator Webb;

    Ironic that what you are accustomed to being called is exactly what I wish to speak to you about.

    Honor

    I heard what you had to say at the December TWHBEA meeting, no problem it's how you felt, I have no problems with a person's point of view.

    What does disturb me is that you knew what was going on behind the scene with these tickets and you spoke with such conviction...as if nothing was ever gonna come to light.

    You will be getting a few emails from people asking you to do what I suggested they ask of you;

    Please, search your heart and ethics meter and choose to do the honorable thing and respectfully return the award citing whatever reason you want,

    Don't put the TWHBEA in a jackpot by making them have to weigh in and make a decision about what they should do.

    I wish you no ill feelings,

    Nathanael Jackson

    Her reply to Nathan:

    I am doing the right thing, I will continue to be an advocate for the performance Tennessee Walking Horse, I have not attempted to silence you Mr. Jackson, even though our views differ on many things. I will not be silenced and I will continue to speak with conviction. I have done nothing wrong. Thank you for your contact. Sen. Robin Webb

    and Nathan's reply:

    Your Honorable Senator Webb;

    Thank you for your quick reply, although I am a little confused, I never spoke on silencing you did I? I re-read what I said, sorry OI don't see it...supporting the horse division of your choice is fine with me, I have no problems with that, it is legal even though I may not have the same point of view as you.

    Let me try this again, what I am advocating is that you simply return the award you recieved from TWHBEA in December in order to support the TWHBEA stated mission statement that the TWHBEA does not support soring or abusing of any horses.

    Years gone by, the culture of the Japanese a warrior would commit Hari Kari rather than bring shame upon his station, superiors, country, flag and on...

    Of course I'm not asking you to do the same rather consider the honor of someone's integrity in sparing the TWHBEA the embarrassing position of having to answer an angry public of how it still supports a United States Senator who just admitted to 2 felony counts of presenting a sore horse in a show.

    I know you understand exactly what I am saying, you do not get to the station in life you have by being an idiot.

    Advocate away, just consider the organization who just honored you ~~~ can you sacrifice your wants to honor it back?

    Return the award with whatever reason you want to give, just return it and not force the TWHBEA International Board to rule on the many request they already are receiving in great numbers from the members and public at large.

    Nathanael Jackson


    Senator's Reply:

    I am a state Senator, Mr. Jackson, I do not support abuse or mistreatment of any person or animal, including a horse and therefore, I am not violating any mission statement of TWHBEA. I will continue to be an ambassador for the padded performance horse and you can continue to be an advocate for your horse. Thanks, again, Robin

    Nathan's Reply:
    Senator;

    I may owe you a big apology, I don't pretend to know everything, and if I see I made a mistake I have absolutely no program to humble myself and apologize.

    Just verify for me, are these two Federal HPA Violations attached here you? Are these two horses registered in your name?

    YOU are a lawmaker, when you introduce a new law, do you expect that if passed and enacted people will take heed and obey it?

    If you said yes, what does the law say about the person who owns a horse that is found to be in violation of the HPA?

    Does that law allow for the owner of a horse found to be in violation of the HPA plead ignorance of the act?

    Since you are a sitting Senator I know you are familiar with the FOIA, these records attached are now public,

    With all due respect, STOP embarrassing yourself, Everyone knows, and to a person I bet each one of them cross their fingers and hope you would just return the award so they don't have to deal with it themselves.

    Dang it woman! I have so much respect for our system of justice to the point I fought for it TWICE I was taught from a young age by my parents to love what the Lord had blessed me to be born in..A God fearing free country!

    Now you piss me off that you would cheapen a institution I love..

    Do Da Right Thang! woman and stop pissing down the back of my neck and calling it rain!

    Nathanael

    • Scar_Rule_tkt-891.pdf
    • Scar_Rule_Tkt-1176.pdf


    Senator's Reply:

    Nathanael, I have previously acknowledged your e-mails, however, I will not acknowledge you further. I know your agenda and have seen it in action as to the Tennessee Walking Horse, in your presentations as well
    as the exploitation and exhibition of your horse. Again, nothing reflects that my horses were abused or sore by any account. That is all. I will continue to be an advocate for the performance padded Tennessee Walking Horse and I respect your right not to be. R

    Nathan's Reply:

    As you wish Maam

    You just made my project to do list

    Have a blessed day

    Nathanael

    PostScript..I asked people to send her an email and express whatever they felt..some have been sending her responses to them to me...

    question;

    How did you people elect this woman to be a Senator?
    Last edited by The Preacher; Jan. 23, 2013 at 07:07 PM. Reason: wrong file


    4 members found this post helpful.

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurleycane View Post
    G - The standardbred is a foundation horse in several american breeds. Many are great gaiting horses in their own right.
    This may be quite true. But in the mid-60s the SB was used to alter the square running walk into a more lateral pace. It was done on a grand scale. The consequence was the loss of the true running walk in a massive percentage of the TWH breeding base. It was "genetic vandalism."

    G.
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão



  6. #146
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    Apr. 6, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by caballero View Post
    So instead they are way off balance and hanging on the horse's mouth to keep from falling off the back, like the guy in the video I posted.

    This has nothing to do with riding dressage or anything related to it, but a valid question aimed at what looks like atrociuous equitation that seems to do nothing to help the horse.
    Please don't confuse "riding a racking/gaited horse in a saddle seat saddle" with Saddle Seat riding. The saddle the person chooses does not mean they are riding that seat...

    Proper Saddle Seat eq has the same shoulder/hip/heel alignment as in other seats. Sometimes the leg gets a little in front of the hip and the rider gets into more of a chair seat, but the whole purpose of the ride is different than hunt or dressage. We try to help the horse raise up in front of the saddle and drop behind the saddle so they are moving uphill - not raise their back up like a dressage horse. We don't want them to DROP their back, but certainly don't work on raising it like dressage riders. We want the horse more "flat" backed with the croup lower than the withers. And when you ride a horse who is uphill like that (remember, a different "uphill" than dressage or hunt), it tends to tilt you back in the saddle a bit.



  7. #147
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    Dec. 30, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guilherme View Post
    This may be quite true. But in the mid-60s the SB was used to alter the square running walk into a more lateral pace. It was done on a grand scale. The consequence was the loss of the true running walk in a massive percentage of the TWH breeding base. It was "genetic vandalism."

    G.
    You and I both love the gaits. Breeding alone does not produce it (regardless of the DNA findings). But in ANY lateral (vs diagonal) gaited horse - if you cause a brace on the horse - you will get a pace.

    And the larger and longer boned horses may need to be brought along with more time and patience to get a good gait than a shorter squarer horse.

    I do not think the standardbreds are responsible for the camped under horses that likely do nothing but squat and pace. Most standardbreds are mighty fine in conformation and temperament.

    But we are lost on the dressage forum - apologies for the side bar.
    from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor



  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurleycane View Post
    You and I both love the gaits. Breeding alone does not produce it (regardless of the DNA findings). But in ANY lateral (vs diagonal) gaited horse - if you cause a brace on the horse - you will get a pace.

    You are in error, here. But this is wrong forum for it. And DNA does count, A LOT!!!!!

    And the larger and longer boned horses may need to be brought along with more time and patience to get a good gait than a shorter squarer horse.

    Indeed; but DNA still counts.

    I do not think the standardbreds are responsible for the camped under horses that likely do nothing but squat and pace. Most standardbreds are mighty fine in conformation and temperament.

    No comments on conformation; my comments stand on movement.

    But we are lost on the dressage forum - apologies for the side bar.
    Indeed.

    G.
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão



  9. #149
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    Apr. 6, 2006
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    Plainview, MN
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    When did the Walking Horse book close? The Saddlebred book, started in 1891, did not close until the 1960s (and you did not have to have a registered horse to show until the '70s). The last World's Grand Champion that was a product of breeding outside the book was the grey mare Sweetheart on Parade in the '30s, who was out of a Standardbred mare http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/sweetheart+on+parade Correct judging in the show ring steered breeders to breeding the correct type of horse. Sweetheart on Parade was a great show mare, but did not leave a lasting impression on the studbook, none of her foals carried on her lineage.

    Saddlebred shows have been happening since before the American Civil War. At the turn of the century (19th-20th) High School classes (a precursor to modern dressage competition) were a popular event. It was against the rules to cross enter a High School horse into a Saddle Horse class, for the thought was a High Schooled horse had been artificially trained its way of going whereas a Saddle Horse should be displaying the ability it was born with. One of the greatest High School horses http://www.audrain.org/irwin/achs10.htm



  10. #150
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    Sep. 20, 2007
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    south of loxahatchee, fla
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    Default very scarey

    Quote Originally Posted by Appsolute View Post
    it literally makes me queasy.
    It is so unnatural....the way the poor horse sits way back on his rear legs, and some big guy sitting on their kidneys....you can see the pastern go clear to the ground. I don't know why I arrived at that site, but it was shocking. I do remember the walking horses when I was a kid that weren't show horses, they looked to be a comfortable ride.
    I have made my living in the equestrian world.



  11. #151
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    Oct. 14, 2005
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    Out of curiosity, isn't this the gait progression we're seeing in dressage right now? The current trend is for flashy knee action. Just look at Totilas' gaits. I mean, it makes sense given that his shoulder angle seems to be around 45 degrees (from the few confo shots I've seen). But the knee action is winning right now...



  12. #152
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    Feb. 28, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by eqsiu View Post
    Out of curiosity, isn't this the gait progression we're seeing in dressage right now? The current trend is for flashy knee action. Just look at Totilas' gaits. I mean, it makes sense given that his shoulder angle seems to be around 45 degrees (from the few confo shots I've seen). But the knee action is winning right now...
    Ah, so perhaps you might understand how a group becomes blind to the bizarre over time. somthing starts small and then gets" improved upon". Someone previously posted that if outsiders look at your sport and go WTF? it might be time to reassess how andwhat is being done.
    Courageous Weenie Eventer Wannabe
    Incredible Invisible


    1 members found this post helpful.

  13. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReSomething View Post
    Ah, so perhaps you might understand how a group becomes blind to the bizarre over time. somthing starts small and then gets" improved upon". Someone previously posted that if outsiders look at your sport and go WTF? it might be time to reassess how andwhat is being done.
    I like to look up older (20+ years) dressage videos and compare them to current ones. I also like to watch old cross country videos to see the evolution in eventing as well. Some things get better, others get worse. Mostly because we can't all agree on what "better" really is.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  14. #154
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    The fancy front end movements if a correct dressage horse is produced by loose shoulders, well engaged hind end, which, most importantly, powers through the back of the horse, up to the front. That power is undulated from hind end to front end, which is then recycled back to riders's hands and fed to hind end again through rider's seat. It is a complete different look and feel from the ones shown in the video clips of these walkers, of which none shows true collection and engagement required in a good dressage horse. As usual, look at the whole horse, not the head or the shoulders alone.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  15. #155
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    Dec. 23, 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gloria View Post
    The fancy front end movements if a correct dressage horse is produced by loose shoulders, well engaged hind end, which, most importantly, powers through the back of the horse, up to the front. That power is undulated from hind end to front end, which is then recycled back to riders's hands and fed to hind end again through rider's seat. It is a complete different look and feel from the ones shown in the video clips of these walkers, of which none shows true collection and engagement required in a good dressage horse. As usual, look at the whole horse, not the head or the shoulders alone.
    Thank you Gloria, and let me echo your words! Let's be VERY clear about this: It is not "knee action" that is currently winning in the dressage ring - it is well-bred, powerful horses with ground covering paces and free shoulders. And several of the highest placing horses don't fit this category, though people who wish to condemn competitive dressage conveniently ignore this.

    It's somewhat unfortunate that we recently had one horse with very poor extended paces (Totilas) that was able to pull huge scores due to the perfection of his collected movements and general engagement, and the many movements dependent upon that... the nay-sayers hit on one of the easiest things for lesser-educated eyes to perceive and used that as a basis to decry all dressage judging ever after.

    In sum, the educated critic will have no problem seeing and understanding the tremendous difference between the Walking Horse world and contemporary dressage.

    I'm not suggesting there are never issues with poor training being rewarded in the dressage ring, but in general the past 3-5 years have seen vast improvement, with amazingly talented horses trained in very sympathetic and classical ways. Shame people are too embittered to acknowledge and celebrate this.
    Last edited by Lost_at_C; Jan. 24, 2013 at 03:12 PM. Reason: spelling
    Proud COTH lurker since 2001.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  16. #156
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    However, 60 years ago the Walkers with fancy front end movement were doing it by themselves too. I was commenting on a progression through the years, not saying that current dressage is as contrived as current walkers. However, in a few decades who knows.

    ETA: Asbach 1960

    Alhlerich 1984

    Totilas 2010

    There are many discussions about training shortcuts and critiques of top horses who many think are not moving "correctly" for true dressage. I am not good enough to judge that level on correctness, but I can see the differences in the flash of the horses' gaits. FWIW, I can see unscrupulous people finding ways to produce flashy trots without true collection or whatever.



  17. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReSomething View Post
    Ah, so perhaps you might understand how a group becomes blind to the bizarre over time. somthing starts small and then gets" improved upon". Someone previously posted that if outsiders look at your sport and go WTF? it might be time to reassess how andwhat is being done.
    Well said, and so very true.



  18. #158
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    With respect eqsiu, I just don't believe the sky is falling. Why not take a look at some of the top placings from the Olympics if you really are interested, and post them in comparison to Ahlerich?... You yourself acknowledge that your generalizations are uneducated ones, so perhaps you might want to refrain from believing all the chatter you hear in internet-land.

    Cautionary parables are fine, but better when accompanied by knowledgeable and factual information.
    Proud COTH lurker since 2001.


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  19. #159
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    I think young horse is creating this problem more than anything. Should it really matter how giant a young horse moves before training? Should they simply cover ground instead of show such great upward motion? Shouldnt the upward motion come with collection? Fancy is one thing but impractical is another IMO.

    Some of the top level horses are "freak" movers and I dont have a problem with that because their "win" is based on accuracy and training, but I think the young horse classes should focus on strength and fluidity without the need for such uphill gaits and over the top action that is closer to DHarness in its appeal. They simply need ground covering gaits that look adjustable vs showing their ability to adjust already IMO.
    ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
    http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/



  20. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by NOMIOMI1 View Post
    I think young horse is creating this problem more than anything. Should it really matter how giant a young horse moves before training? Should they simply cover ground instead of show such great upward motion? Shouldnt the upward motion come with collection? Fancy is one thing but impractical is another IMO.

    Some of the top level horses are "freak" movers and I dont have a problem with that because their "win" is based on accuracy and training, but I think the young horse classes should focus on strength and fluidity without the need for such uphill gaits and over the top action that is closer to DHarness in its appeal. They simply need ground covering gaits that look adjustable vs showing their ability to adjust already IMO.
    Interestingly many (most?) of the young horse winners do not make it to the highest levels of our sport. Most FEI trainers I know cross those types of big movers off of their list when buying prospects. They want floaty but medium sized movers who are built nice and uphill. The gaits they will develop with correct training. This makes me wonder if we won't see the young horse judging evolve to reward the qualities you have mentioned above over time. If the goal is to produce sporthorses that reach the highest level of our discipline I would imagine that it will. If the goal becomes producing flashy horses strictly for the YH classes then obviously it won't. I hope that with time we see the former rather than the latter.



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