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  1. #161
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    Perhaps part of the problem is that TOO MANY drugs are allowed within limits. Why the need for TWO NSAIDs? Why is DEX allowed? Having said what I did in a previous post, I'm all for adopting FEI drug rules.


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  2. #162
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    From the USEF letter it makes it seem like GABA is the big problem at issue. I was under the impression that high doses of mag sulfate could have been the culprit and is untestable. Why isn't USEF working on a test for that (or are they)?

    USEF can't give itself the power to subpoena but they need harsh penalties for noncooperation to close the admin loophole.


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  3. #163
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    The usef turns a blind eye because it goes against the business. the USEF just dispenses suspensions here and there to keep people believing there is fairness in the system. But the truth is that those that spend a lot can get away with anything. And the trainers that have the big clients and support the USEF will find a way to continue showing and winning and getting awards for being model horsemen.


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  4. #164
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    I know this has been said before, but it bears repeating for all the exhibitors and pony moms out there who are relying on their trainers to do right by their horses/ponies.

    ANY substance given for the purpose of effecting a horse's behavior is illegal.

    This includes Depo, Magnesium, Dex, etc. etc.

    Drugs which "don't test" does not mean that they are legal. I have heard trainers tell clients that XXX is OK to give to Dobbin because it doesn't test. WRONGO.

    It is the purpose for giving a drug which makes it illegal, not the drug itself.

    Yes, therre is a "drug list" of drugs which obviously make a horse quiet/lethargic. But that is not the total sum of illegal drugs.

    Why would a gelding need a drug which keeps a mare from coming in heat? He doesn't. He gets it because it makes him less cranky, less likely to pin his ears and wring his tail. He is given depo solely fo the purpose of altering his behavior.

    Please, exhibitors, understand the distinction and question your trainer if you do not understand.

    Do not become part of the problem, be part of the solution.
    "I used to have money, now I have horses."


    23 members found this post helpful.

  5. #165
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    [QUOTE=fordtraktor;6747305]From the USEF letter it makes it seem like GABA is the big problem at issue. I was under the impression that high doses of mag sulfate could have been the culprit and is untestable. Why isn't USEF working on a test for that (or are they)?/QUOTE]

    It was stated at the presentation at the USHJA convention that they are working to determine appropriate levels of magnesium - however, since it is a naturally occurring substance, it is taking longer than everyone wants. They don't want to rush the tests in case someone challenges it later - they want it right the first time. That's what they did with GABA (Carolina Gold).



  6. #166
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    Jan. 21, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Helpus View Post
    I know this has been said before, but it bears repeating for all the exhibitors and pony moms out there who are relying on their trainers to do right by their horses/ponies.

    ANY substance given for the purpose of effecting a horse's behavior is illegal.

    This includes Depo, Magnesium, Dex, etc. etc.

    Drugs which "don't test" does not mean that they are legal. I have heard trainers tell clients that XXX is OK to give to Dobbin because it doesn't test. WRONGO.

    It is the purpose for giving a drug which makes it illegal, not the drug itself.

    Yes, therre is a "drug list" of drugs which obviously make a horse quiet/lethargic. But that is not the total sum of illegal drugs.

    Why would a gelding need a drug which keeps a mare from coming in heat? He doesn't. He gets it because it makes him less cranky, less likely to pin his ears and wring his tail. He is given depo solely fo the purpose of altering his behavior.

    Please, exhibitors, understand the distinction and question your trainer if you do not understand.

    Do not become part of the problem, be part of the solution.
    Well Said!!!! and about time!


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  7. #167
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    It seems the poor Pony here had both known and unknown/undiagnosed medical issues M uses as a defense for all the "legal" drugs? Basically saying they knew he was sick and needed them all to keep going but was sicker then they thought?

    That right there is the root of the problem. Overuse, keeping them going at all costs and "help" for the less then accomplished riders who support the trainer and pay for it all, including the "meds".

    Whole concept is wrong and has to stop.

    And don't wave the FEI flag around as a utopian answer, they got their own problems with "untestable" drugs du jour and enforcement at the highest levels of the sport. It's not about more rules, its about enforcing the ones we have against ALL involved with the horse, not just the one who signs as trainer.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.


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  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by poltroon View Post
    The story is that the injection was Legend. I know of no legitimate reason to give Legend two hours before a class. Maybe that's what was in the syringe, but it doesn't make me feel any better about the situation.
    Many people give Legend 2-4 hours out because they feel that's when it is at its peak in the bloodstream. It's not uncommon. Especially for a big show where the extra expense would be warrented.



  9. #169
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    The problem with using the phrase "altering the horse's behavior" is that it's often impossible to separate physical behavior from mental behavior. My horse gets ulcerguard and it changes his outward behavior - no more cranky ears and tail wringing. My horse gets regular Pentosan injections and his behavior changes from having sticky lead changes to clean ones. Both of those meds alter his behavior.

    While I agree with the principle expressed in LH's post, it is very difficult to adhere to the principle without crossing over into the gray area of legitimate therapies.
    "Can you imagine what I would do if I could do all I can?" Sun Tzu, The Art of War
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  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bayboys View Post
    While I agree with the principle expressed in LH's post, it is very difficult to adhere to the principle without crossing over into the gray area of legitimate therapies.
    Of course, but thats not the real problem and not why some of this stuff is given as routine by some trainers. I don't want to deny a competition horse access to legit therapeutic substances in controlled amounts for legit reasons either.

    But that is not why they are given so openly and without question. Maybe they snow the owners about the "meds" charge on the bill with that BS but the comfort and well being of the horse/Pony is the last thing on their minds.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.



  11. #171
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    findeight, but how do you articulate in a rule that a horse may be given Robaxin for sore muscles but he may not be given Robaxin to make him quieter? I think that is the problem. So many legitimate meds have a sideline effect of making a horse "easier".
    "Can you imagine what I would do if I could do all I can?" Sun Tzu, The Art of War
    Rainy: http://tinyurl.com/kj7x53c
    Stash: http://tinyurl.com/mmm3p4e



  12. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bayboys View Post
    findeight, but how do you articulate in a rule that a horse may be given Robaxin for sore muscles but he may not be given Robaxin to make him quieter? I think that is the problem. So many legitimate meds have a sideline effect of making a horse "easier".
    I may be in the minority in believing this, but in my opinion just because a medication has a legitimate therapeutic use does not necessarily mean horses should be competing on it. Why not change your horse management program to accommodate the particular horse's needs? Should horses showing at the top levels of their sport really need to be shot up with dex, robaxin, and hormones in order to do their job? And conversely, if the horse is uncomfortable or its performance is impacted to the point that it needs these drugs, is it really fit and sound to be competing?


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  13. #173
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    I have no idea...other then maybe if the horse is so sore all the time it needs a shot for every show? They need to back off with it? Maybe a shot every show is not the best thing to do with it?

    Too many of these horses get alot of stuff and get it every time mixed with God knows what else and no thought of drug interaction. Not as needed for legit reasons. I would bet some of these "trainers" don't even know what the stuff is really for.

    It's not all trainers, again. There are still ethical people concerned with the horse's welfare out there that are capable of making informed decisions regarding legitimate uses for meds. But the rest of them are getting more and more numerous and the owners more and more ignorant of what is really being done at their expense.

    Well said Sticky, thats what I was trying to get at but we posted at about the same time.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.


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  14. #174
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    I agree with the above post. Perhaps if show horses are required to fill out a " reason for med form"...... Then have it follow the horse for the entire show year. It would help with following trends......Why is Dobbin getting Dex for hives at every show? Then maybe something can be done....a show vet perhaps could be required to evaluate the horse to see if indeed it has hives.


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  15. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horseymama View Post
    Your response is exactly why it would work. Because if people have so much pressure and scrutiny from their peers to behave in an ethical manner lest all in a group be penalized, it is much more likely that they will then behave ethically.

    It would make people choose much more carefully their trainers, barns, employees, and peers. It's not about each person winning a nice ribbon. It's about elevating the sport as a whole and promoting the utmost respect for our horses' welfare.
    No way in hell am I spending that kind of money to risk someone else in my barn blowing it. Too many people on this board alone have done their homework, and still been screwed. No matter how carefully I pick, there is always too much of a chance that someone in the barn miscalculates when to give bute. Punishments should be between the trainer and owner alone. NOT remotely OK to drag innocent people into someone else's punishment. It's like sentencing an entire family for a crime when one member of the family decided to steal jewelry. Our justice system doesn't work that way, neither should the horse show circuit.


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  16. #176
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    OK Sticky, but which drugs? If a horse isn't tough enough to push through his ulcers, he should stay home rather than getting ulcer guard? How about joint therapies? All of those horses getting older and with arthritic changes should just retire? And there's the problem. Retire where? In the real world, horses have to have jobs in order to continue being cared for at ridiculous expense.

    No amount of time off is going to cure the arthritic hocks of a competitive show horse. And that horse, once he is no longer competing, is not guaranteed a cushy life in a green pasture. Real world.
    "Can you imagine what I would do if I could do all I can?" Sun Tzu, The Art of War
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    Stash: http://tinyurl.com/mmm3p4e


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  17. #177
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    We are not talking about joint therapy and ulcers here though. Or even the umbiquitous dex (which I did use for actual hives and had no effect at all on behavior with any of mine).

    Talking about casual overuse of pain killers, known drugs and unknown substances to keep it going and keep it quiet with no thought given to potential drug interaction or protecting the health and well being of the animal. That's pretty real world when you end up with a dead animal at the showgrounds with 15+ meds listed on the tack room white board for a very small show string. Not to mention front page on the NYT.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.


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  18. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by CBoylen View Post
    Many people give Legend 2-4 hours out because they feel that's when it is at its peak in the bloodstream.
    Emphasis added.

    'Feel'? We're talking about science -- physiology, pharmacology -- and yet we have a cohort of lay persons who go by 'feeling'?

    Never mind that Bayer's package inserts say 'Horses should be given stall rest after treatment before gradually resuming normal activity.'

    The Horse Show Meds routine is hocus-pocus with perhaps a bit of science mixed in. This is how you get twisted people like Ms. Mandarino who know eff-all about horses, training and/or medication injecting their horses with a laundry list of 15 different substances.

    I'd love -- love -- to see a placebo injection study done on show hunters. You tell one trainer that Horse/Pony A is winning due to Placebo X, then everyone will want it and tout its magic effects. No one will bother to test the substance to find out that it's only saline solution. Heck, you could probably label the vial 'Placebo' and no one would stop to think about what that word means, only that it means 'ribbons'.


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  19. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bayboys View Post
    OK Sticky, but which drugs? If a horse isn't tough enough to push through his ulcers, he should stay home rather than getting ulcer guard? How about joint therapies? All of those horses getting older and with arthritic changes should just retire? And there's the problem. Retire where? In the real world, horses have to have jobs in order to continue being cared for at ridiculous expense.

    No amount of time off is going to cure the arthritic hocks of a competitive show horse. And that horse, once he is no longer competing, is not guaranteed a cushy life in a green pasture. Real world.
    There is a difference between a horse whose attitude improves after being treated for ulcers, and horse who is quieter in the show ring because he (along with every other horse in his trainer's barn) received Robaxin for "sore muscles". Likewise, there is a difference between giving an arthritic horse joint injections and Adequan to extend his show career, and doubling him up on multiple NSAIDs every time he competes.

    I'm not saying that any horse that needs a little bit of maintenance should be turned out to roam the green pastures with Black Beauty, but we also shouldn't be pushing unsound horses beyond what they can comfortably do.
    Last edited by Sticky Situation; Dec. 29, 2012 at 01:30 PM. Reason: Left out a word!


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  20. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by gumshoe View Post
    The USEF is unable to enforce the rules it currently imposes. Perhaps the focus would be better put on enforcing the rules that exist rather than imposing additional rules. That can't be enforced.
    The reason they can't enforce them is because the penalty is a slap on the wrist! They need penalties that matter, at LEAST a year suspension and $15K for the owner and the trainer, for each infraction!

    And grooms, barn managers or other employees of the trainer should not be able to sign as "trainer!" Why does the USEF stand aside and let this happen?

    What does the USEF do for it's members when it can't even police real attempts at cheating? Or impose penalties that ares serious enough to discourage it? I mean really, what do they do?
    ******
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