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  1. #221
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    Again - I have watched the videos - the good ones and the bad ones. In the videos where things are done correctly you can still hear these people talking about how horrible things are. They don't know what they are looking at. There is a HUGE HUGE difference.
    If it were to get done correctly it would be more local US companies that would do it - not the big foreign-take-the-money-screw-up-the-landscape-run-from-any-responsibility-for-your-actions-corporations.
    It would have to be better monitored. That is highly unlikely to happen.
    Now they want to add the ag/gag laws. If everything is really so hunky dory and farting butterflies as you are saying?? Why would they need that???
    The truth is actually somewhere in the middle - it isn't as bad as the RARA's think but not nearly as good as the pro-slaughter would have you believe either.
    And anytime they tell you they are doing it for the horse?? They're truly full of ...........
    Besides that - can you name one thing the government has done right???

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    So what, I have seen horses slaughtered and they also didn't have any idea of what was happening, they just dropped on the spot.

    You just don't see that in videos, because that is not what animal rights agendas need you to see.
    They only want the rare ones that struggled in the videos, with the many repeats of the same scene and the proper music to go along with it.
    You have not really seen days and days of slaughter.
    You are basing what you say on animal rights stories and videos of some times, at times questionable management, not real every day to day operations when all goes well.

    Just think, if slaughter was really all the time as animal rights videos show, nothing would get done, carcasses would be condemned, where would be the profit to even keep a plant open, with Keystone operators as those animal rights videos show?

    Well, that is because that was the rare exception, taken out of context for agendas, not the daily reality.

    Anyway, the USA plants have been closed several years now, so that is not what you can say is happening now.

    The canadian plants, that was also an aberration, an union dispute and other going on there, also not regular, proper operations, that everyone agrees.

    THAT is what those that keep bringing that old stuff again and again want the ones reading here to see, for shock value and forget to think for themselves and say, hey, something here is not up to par and it is more than the abuse and broken regulations and mismanagement, it is the agenda that all that is used to promote.



  2. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    Many of us support the fine work the local H.S. groups do with pets. They have an overwhelming job and little to no support from the national groups with the same H.S. names. We all feel sorry when the local HS has to euthanize hundreds of dogs and cats per year. BUT did you know THEY ARE GASSED. Yup...the cat, kitten, dog, puppy has to be smoothered by the gas until it dies AND it can take anywhere from 3-8 minutes depending on the number of animals in the chamber.

    No one here is overwhelmed and screaming foul over that....but a horse dying instantaneously (in most cases) is causing an uproar.

    More of you should go to your local H.S. and watch...the gas burns, blinds and chokes the animal to death. That is why the human death chambers were deemed sadistic and cruel and the lethal injection was introduced. It was stated that we slaughtered animals with more compassion than the gas chamber.

    Again, your information is misleading.
    Not all states use gas chambers. 19 states currently ban the use of gas chambers, while many of the remaining ones, use other methods. Jim Moran introduced house bill 736 banning the use of gas chambers for pet euthanasia this month.

    Our Humane Society is no kill , but injured, sick or aggressive animals are euthed by injection. And our local animal control euths by injection.



  3. #223
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    I now know there are is one more sure thing besides death and taxes:

    The people who are pro-slaughter continue to believe it is the only answer to excess horses and refuse to even acknowledge there are viable alternatives.

    Those of you on the pro side would have my ear if the horse world banded together to find and support alternatives and THEN realized by experience there was no alternative.

    Those of you who believe the RARAs will EVER be successful in banning horse ownership for good, had best go down to your basements and hunker down, because the aliens are coming!
    Proud owner of a Slaughter-Bound TB from a feedlot, and her surprise baby...!
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  4. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    How does horse slaughter affect you personally? Somebody twisting your arm to sell your horses?

    As far as I know non of us evil pro slaughter people have a stake in it being legal open and available.
    It's easy to be pro slaughter when you don't even own a horse. You don't have to worry about it being stolen to be sold to slaughter, or worry that if you ever did sell it, or lease it, it would be sold to slaughter.



  5. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenm View Post
    I now know there are is one more sure thing besides death and taxes:

    The people who are pro-slaughter continue to believe it is the only answer to excess horses and refuse to even acknowledge there are viable alternatives.

    Those of you on the pro side would have my ear if the horse world banded together to find and support alternatives and THEN realized by experience there was no alternative.

    Those of you who believe the RARAs will EVER be successful in banning horse ownership for good, had best go down to your basements and hunker down, because the aliens are coming!
    One of the best posts on here.



  6. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetsmom View Post
    It's easy to be pro slaughter when you don't even own a horse. You don't have to worry about it being stolen to be sold to slaughter, or worry that if you ever did sell it, or lease it, it would be sold to slaughter.
    I thought you said you really were not hitting below the belt, but there you go again.

    Better try to keep this a bit less personal, because everyone could be called on the floor if we keep up with that.
    Once the personal jabs start, it is down hill all the way with any debate.



  7. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGHIRETIRE View Post
    Again - I have watched the videos - the good ones and the bad ones. In the videos where things are done correctly you can still hear these people talking about how horrible things are. They don't know what they are looking at. There is a HUGE HUGE difference.
    If it were to get done correctly it would be more local US companies that would do it - not the big foreign-take-the-money-screw-up-the-landscape-run-from-any-responsibility-for-your-actions-corporations.
    It would have to be better monitored. That is highly unlikely to happen.
    Now they want to add the ag/gag laws. If everything is really so hunky dory and farting butterflies as you are saying?? Why would they need that???
    The truth is actually somewhere in the middle - it isn't as bad as the RARA's think but not nearly as good as the pro-slaughter would have you believe either.
    And anytime they tell you they are doing it for the horse?? They're truly full of ...........
    Besides that - can you name one thing the government has done right???
    Look, you won't believe this, as you and others have not before when I have posted it, but I have over many years followed these topics, this battle with animal rights has been ongoing for decades now.
    I have talked with many people that were managers, workers and inspectors in slaughter plants, including some in horse plants.

    Those were a business, that hired and trained and supervised people.
    The horse plants were acknowledged by all to be some of the most regulated and inspected.
    True, you can read the inspectors reports, that would find, as their job is, every little and bigger regulation break and proceed as they should.

    That is the way all business operate. That inspector reports show they are inspected and told where to correct what is not up to par is the way all business work.
    Go read the inspectors reports on your local restaurants and you will be able to understand that yes, all business are found lacking and they remedy it, until the inspector finds something else.
    Reading there, it would scare the pants out of you and you would never again set a foot in a restaurant, it sounds very unappetizing, I tell you, to read about old grease in the grill corners to roach and mice parts in the grinders.
    But, there is not an immensely rich non-profit groups like the animal rights groups just sitting there to jump on restaurants, organize protests and ask restaurants be banned, look at the horrors there and turn the gullible public away from them on some reports of abuse or broken regulations here and there.

    No, slaughter plants are not those dens of evil animal rights love to tell they are.
    That perception is part of their agenda to turn people against all and any use of animals, that by the way is what animal rights groups live and thrive by, that is their business, that is how they get paid, for doing that well and well they do it.

    The trouble, there is no one regulating and inspecting and seeing that the animal rights groups don't misled or outright lie with their propaganda and they rarely get caught at it and then, guess what, with their herd of lawyers, well, they feel they can get by most anything.
    I was glad to see them at least lose their circus lawsuit, that did show them for who they are.

    As I said before, there is no other we do that has some of the richest non-profit groups with nothing else to do with that money that sit there and take pot shots at something like we have in the animal rights groups.

    That is what we have in these horse slaughter and also other kinds of slaughter and in general with any use of animals.

    Those groups don't have anything else to do with their riches than sit there and figure where they can next find a cause of the moment and get something rolling for their drives and we animal owners of all kinds are the losers as their main target.

    Those of you supporting them are not seeing the forest for the few trees on fire animal rights extremists use for their causes of the moment.
    Once the whole forest is on fire, it will be too late for all of us that care for animals.

    When we see any abuses, we need to stop them, that is what regulations are for.
    When some sit there looking for any abuses and broken regulations just to make causes of the moment drives out of it and call for bans, then sensible people should know not to believe them and just keep on working to stop abusers and make better regulations.

    I think that anyone that really knows about slaughter of any kind knows it is one more natural process, the killing of some to fulfill the needs of others, the same process that this world evolved with, be it a hawk catching him a mice, a lion a gazelle, or humans raising and slaughtering the animals they can make that one last use from.

    Slaughter is just one more process for our goals.
    Slaughter is not inherently bad, like animal rights groups try to make it bringing any abuse in it as if that is all it was.
    Common sense ought to tell us it is not.
    No need to be banning slaughter because that is the cause of the moment and someone's agenda.
    Last edited by Bluey; Aug. 31, 2012 at 07:30 AM.



  8. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenm View Post
    I now know there are is one more sure thing besides death and taxes:

    The people who are pro-slaughter continue to believe it is the only answer to excess horses and refuse to even acknowledge there are viable alternatives.

    Those of you on the pro side would have my ear if the horse world banded together to find and support alternatives and THEN realized by experience there was no alternative.

    Those of you who believe the RARAs will EVER be successful in banning horse ownership for good, had best go down to your basements and hunker down, because the aliens are coming!
    As a pro-slaughter person I do not believe it is the only solution to excess horses. It is a part of the solution. Along with reduced breeding which is also happenning in the stock breeds. There is no single solution to the problem.

    Horse theft is constantly brought up as a reason to ban slaughter. How big of a problem is this really? Out of the millions of horses how many are stolen? Out of those stolen how many are sent to slaughter? I do not have hard numbers for this but I believe we are talking such a small percentage that it is not measurable.



  9. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenm View Post
    I now know there are is one more sure thing besides death and taxes:

    The people who are pro-slaughter continue to believe it is the only answer to excess horses and refuse to even acknowledge there are viable alternatives.
    That is rubbish and you know it.
    I think the ones who refuse to acknowledge anything that they ha is the 'Ban' crowd.ve not come up with (which is pretty much anything)

    Those of you on the pro side would have my ear if the horse world banded together to find and support alternatives and THEN realized by experience there was no alternative.
    Say what?
    Considering that everybody is free to do with their animal as they wish, there are enough alternatives. You know it I know it...
    You can always put your own horse down anyway you deem fit. You don't have to sell it.

    Those of you who believe the RARAs will EVER be successful in banning horse ownership for good, had best go down to your basements and hunker down, because the aliens are coming!
    You are not paying attention!
    The goal is not necessarily a ban, but ultimately the separation from humans and animals and they are well on their way to accomplish that with horses.
    They don't have to have it banned - not just yet - but only need it hobby priced out of the reach for the majority.
    Look around! See how the industry is hurting.
    No, PETA did not create the drought, but they are sure not going to allow any mean of alleviating the suffering by allowing market regulation via a fixed bottom price!

    Once the average man is successfully removed from the picture it is only a hop skip and a jump from shutting it all down! After all we love to tale pot shots at the spoiled elite, right!

    Where is JSwan anyhow...She can actually tell you how those peeps work.
    Animal welfare my foot.

    One more thing:
    The pro ban people need to bring the alternatives.
    You know, like what they did not do when the plants in the US shut down.

    I know you participated in those discussions as well....

    Nothing changed, except that the horses travel further...nice work. Did that help any? heck now.

    You want to change things, you bring the alternatives.
    And don't forget the funding!
    In slaughter the carcass is not waste, little has to be disposed off and tht will go into other useful things besides steak.

    Any shape of euthanasia requires the forethought to dispose of the remains by any means. And that is becoming increasingly difficult in many areas. We are not talking about digging a hole in the ground to stuff a German Shepherd in there, we are talking about 1200pounds of matter which can have a substantial impact on the ground water.....

    And the crowd PETA caters to has already scored major wins for them in unrelated matter: as NIMBYs they don't want that rendering plant in their neighborhood, even if they do own a barn full of furry children...
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  10. #230
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    You never ever address any of the concerns some of us have about it. It is just the same thing you always say. The foreign corporations that have no interest and no reason to do things right is a huge concern. They were HUGE polluters. When you talk about horses being a renewable resource, how can you ignore that part??
    The big feed lots are also becoming a pollution concern. Yet you speak as if horse slaughter is going to magically fix that as well.
    You are always the first to start insulting people who do not believe as you do. We are instantly labeled as RARAs and you absolutely can't get beyond the fact that we might have valid concerns. So when you jump on someone else for getting personal, you might want to make sure that the fingers aren't pointing back at you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Look, you won't believe this, as you and others havens not before when I have posted it, but I have over many years followed these topics, this battle with animal rights has been ongoing for decades now.
    I have talked with many people that were managers, workers and inspectors in slaughter plants, including some in horse plants.

    Those were a business, that hired and trained and supervised people.
    The horse plants were acknowledged by all to be some of the most regulated and inspected.
    True, you can read the inspectors reports, that would find, as their job is, every little and bigger regulation break and proceed as they should.

    That is the way all business operate. That inspector reports show they are inspected and told where to correct what is not up to par is the way all business work.
    Go read the inspectors reports on your local restaurants and you will be able to understand that yes, all business are found lacking and they remedy it, until the inspector finds something else.
    Reading there, it would scare the pants out of you and you would never again set a foot in a restaurant, it sounds very unappetizing, I tell you, to read about old grease in the grill corners to roach and mice parts in the grinders.
    But, there is not an immensely rich non-profit groups like the animal rights groups just sitting there to jump on restaurants, organize protests and ask restaurants be banned, look at the horrors there and turn the gullible public away from them on some reports of abuse or broken regulations here and there.

    No, slaughter plants are not those dens of evil animal rights love to tell they are.
    That perception is part of their agenda to turn people against all and any use of animals, that by the way is what animal rights groups live and thrive by, that is their business, that is how they get paid, for doing that well and well they do it.

    The trouble, there is no one regulating and inspecting and seeing that the animal rights groups don't misled or outright lie with their propaganda and they rarely get caught at it and then, guess what, with their herd of lawyers, well, they feel they can get by most anything.
    I was glad to see them at least lose their circus lawsuit, that did show them for who they are.

    As I said before, there is no other we do that has some of the richest non-profit groups with nothing else to do with that money that sit there and take pot shots at something like we have in the animal rights groups.

    That is what we have in these horse slaughter and also other kinds of slaughter and in general with any use of animals.

    Those groups don't have anything else to do with their riches than sit there and figure where they can next find a cause of the moment and get something rolling for their drives and we animal owners of all kinds are the losers as their main target.

    Those of you supporting them are not seeing the forest for the few trees on fire animal rights extremists use for their causes of the moment.
    Once the whole forest is on fire, it will be too late for all of us that care for animals.

    When we see any abuses, we need to stop them, that is what regulations are for.
    When some sit there looking for any abuses and broken regulations just to make causes of the moment drives out of it and call for bans, then sensible people should know not to believe them and just keep on working to stop abusers and make better regulations.

    I think that anyone that really knows about slaughter of any kind knows it is one more natural process, the killing of some to fulfill the needs of others, the same process that this world evolved with, be it a hawk catching him a mice, a lion a gazelle, or humans raising and slaughtering the animals they can make that one last use from.

    Slaughter is just one more process for our goals.
    Slaughter is not inherently bad, like animal rights groups try to make it bringing any abuse in it as if that is all it was.
    Common sense ought to tell us it is not.
    No need to be banning slaughter because that is the cause of the moment and someone's agenda.



  11. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    Where is JSwan anyhow...She can actually tell you how those peeps work.
    she is probably reading this and not participating.

    I have answered a few of these Anti folks in my head, but find they won't hear what they don't want to, so I don't argue.

    it's not like this hasn't been gone over before.



  12. #232
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    Actually the RARAs should be for slaughter as that would be more in line with the no human contact rule they are going for.
    Didn't they recently come out in favor of it??

    Quote Originally Posted by jenm

    [I
    The people who are pro-slaughter continue to believe it is the only answer to excess horses and refuse to even acknowledge there are viable alternatives.[/I]

    Those of you on the pro side would have my ear if the horse world banded together to find and support alternatives and THEN realized by experience there was no alternative.

    Those of you who believe the RARAs will EVER be successful in banning horse ownership for good, had best go down to your basements and hunker down, because the aliens are coming!



  13. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGHIRETIRE View Post
    Actually the RARAs should be for slaughter as that would be more in line with the no human contact rule they are going for.
    Didn't they recently come out in favor of it??
    PETA did.
    They released a statement to the effect that they support horse slaughter to retutn to the U.S.

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  14. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGHIRETIRE View Post
    The big feed lots are also becoming a pollution concern. Yet you speak as if horse slaughter is going to magically fix that as well.
    Last count at the Shelby feedlot a few months ago was upwards of 2,000 horses.

    ************************
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  15. #235
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    Where is Shelby??

    We have a couple of them up here. One is in Zillah.
    The trucks have a route they follow and come through about once a month.

    Quote Originally Posted by luvmytbs View Post
    Last count at the Shelby feedlot a few months ago was upwards of 2,000 horses.



  16. #236
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    There is an emerging business I have previously discussed. Equine feedlots. These lots take the horses and keep them for the SIX MONTHS required for human consumption. Before everyone gets up in arms..this is NO different than the average horse who stands around all day and just eats..or switches flies. This allows horses severly injured to be removed and destroyed. It also allows the feeder group to sell or have sales i.e. foal sales every fall..

    This also removes one of the problems with slaughter of pregnant mares. There are currently 11 feedlots in Texas..the largest handling 3000 head.

    There are two in Montana and I understand there are going to be some established in Michigan.

    This will remove the "stopping of bute and dewormer by other than a vet" rumours. That was never going to happen except if you hire an HSUS vet.

    Transportation is still long and arduous and that issue would be resolved to a high percentage IF there were local or central slaughter houses.

    A development of slaughter plants will reflect the changes in the industry and attitudes of society and changes in coldes will reflect those concerns.

    The anti slaughter group always say..stop the breeding...of course that is the answer...no breeding..just use up the "current inventory" and all will be well..except there will be no more horses within 20 years..so lets try and be realistic. Rescues are failing at an amazing rate. Donations have dropped dramatically and a few, such as Gentle Giants and Days End have turned donors off due to their pensions, and wages (although some appear within reason they do not reflect the perks i.e. paid for housing and vehicles, and insurance and all expenses)

    So..here is my question only for the Anti-Slaughter.

    What is your SOLUTION that can have an immediate effect (6 months) maximum?

    Remember that Euthanization is expensive and in many counties illegal unless coupled with carcas removal..for a total bill of $450 up to $800 PER HORSE....There are also more and more HSUS Vets who REFUSE to euthanize HEALTHY horses.....Hay is going to hit record prices...

    I have NEVER received a solution from a Anti slaughter person that was realistic..maybe some of the new posters will have better solutions



  17. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGHIRETIRE View Post
    Where is Shelby??

    We have a couple of them up here. One is in Zillah.
    The trucks have a route they follow and come through about once a month.
    Shelby Montana is one hour south of the Canadian import border and it is a total of 3 hours from the Fort MacLeod facility. There is talk of expansion to double its size due to the current demand



  18. #238
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    The pro- slaughter folks need to prove to me that the whole business of slaughter is humane. That's it. Dead is dead I don't care how or even when they die only that they die without terror. That's it.

    I have 4 horses too many. They are my mostly old, or have old injury's that may affect them early in age. I AM responsible for their being. I AM the holder of their future. I will not expose any of them to a bad death. I would not sleep at night. It's too wrong in my heart.

    I am making MY ethical choice I can't do it and I'm not the only one. I have ex-breeder friends that are hanging on to there remaining horses because their afraid they'll either go Amish or slaughter, that is our fast market. If they aren't a show horse they hit the auction road, where it leads Sugarcreek, New Holland, Camelot, then a bunch of really nice ladies pool the money and get these horses from kill pens. My hats off to ALL of them. I have sent money when I could. I can I can't right now. I'm barely hanging on myself after my job loss then 4 years of DH's back to back health crisis's.

    Currently I'm keeping 4 unwanted types, and 3 keepers. I really like all of these 7 horses. They all have something special and something wrong. I can't BEAR the thought of one my horses ending up on the pipeline. It make me feel like crap even when I imagine it. Blech! Like right now. BLECH! It nearly makes me wretch. The the economic cost is crushing us. My pasture is crap, it needs a 3 row crop rotation I have an opportunity to lease, too many horses to feed year round, I have a new job.... GAH! I'm dying an ethically, educated horseman's death here. Not a business to me, but for the love of the horse itself. I am a demographic.

    The Hobbiest breeder. They are huge asset to breeds. They are the dreamers. They often produce wonderful out crosses for the current bloodlines du jour. We don't do it for the "money" that's a laugh an' a half, just cost coverage would be awesome!

    It may come down to I have to euth. them. I struggle with it everyday of my life. I have distanced myself from the horses on the hotbed. I really like each of these horses they have been keepers. I'm now beyond my "new" limit. One day at a time for me.

    While most of the horse people who engage in the internet are least somewhat aware of horse slaughter, there is a whole shit ton of non-internet people that are horseman. I've been spending time with a whole bunch of horse people who only know what I once knew before the internet.

    They don't USE the internet for anything. Jeez HERE it's not uncommon for them to not even have internet ACCESS. So I have a pretty good notion that they don't have an informed opinion. They believe that it never COULD affect them. Blinders are on. Wish I still had mine.

    Before the grace of god I go. This is my reality.
    Sorry for the WOT.



  19. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    I have NEVER received a solution from a Anti slaughter person that was realistic..maybe some of the new posters will have better solutions
    There have been many different suggestions by the anti crowd, which requires responsible horse ownership.
    Something the pro side doesn't want to practice.

    Pro-side solution is to slaughter more horses. Yours specifically is to open more feedlots so the 'unwanted' horses can be warehoused in the same fashion the BLM does.

    Animal welfare and all that has never been part of your solution.
    Last edited by luvmytbs; Aug. 31, 2012 at 02:26 PM.

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  20. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGHIRETIRE View Post
    You never ever address any of the concerns some of us have about it. It is just the same thing you always say. The foreign corporations that have no interest and no reason to do things right is a huge concern. They were HUGE polluters. When you talk about horses being a renewable resource, how can you ignore that part??
    Really? Is this kinder garden?
    http://skimthat.com/935/drone-pilot-...ng-plant-video

    Considering that a whole bunch of people have conniption when the EPA looks over their shoulder...these was not a the horse meat packer. This was the company packing yummie pork...
    Does that makes it any better? no, of course not, but it should show that the issues are not related. I am sure they didn't pay their taxes either.
    Another reason why people need rules and enforcement in their lives. Because all companies cheat when they can make a buck of it. Just ask BP!

    The big feed lots are also becoming a pollution concern. Yet you speak as if horse slaughter is going to magically fix that as well.
    Yes we wave out star studded wand and turn it all into butterflies and rainbows.

    You are always the first to start insulting people who do not believe as you do. We are instantly labeled as RARAs and you absolutely can't get beyond the fact that we might have valid concerns. So when you jump on someone else for getting personal, you might want to make sure that the fingers aren't pointing back at you.
    Ah, running out of arguments, then insulting people, afterward we point fingers and cry 'she started it'

    You are quoting Bluey and accusing her of insulting people.

    The worst she has ever called anybody was ARA follower. And by their actions you shall recognize them....
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



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