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  1. #2461
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    Nov. 8, 2007
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  2. #2462
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    Mar. 8, 2006
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    2,859

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    Whew--he's got some beady little eyes



  3. #2463
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    May. 16, 2007
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    Has anyone posted this ? 9% HPA violations at Celebration 2012

    http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_wel..._results.shtml
    from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.



  4. #2464
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    Feb. 13, 2006
    Location
    Ohio
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    654

    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by WalkInTheWoods View Post
    Has anyone posted this ? 9% HPA violations at Celebration 2012

    http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_wel..._results.shtml
    Walkinthewoods....are you by chance the "new user name of bayou-bengal??? She has been missing in action for awhile, and your posts sound so much like hers.



  5. #2465
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    May. 16, 2007
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    No cordial. I joined in 2007 but mostly read, rarely posted until this BL mess came to light again.
    from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.



  6. #2466
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    Mar. 9, 2006
    Location
    Florida
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    300

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    Saddlebred people have nothing to say because action devices are not used in the show ring and the horses are not sored.
    I feel pretty confident in saying that all horse people are against soring and given the opportunity would certainly speak out against it. Outside of the mid south you don't really see it.



  7. #2467
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    Dec. 30, 2006
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    1,209

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    It is pretty much not just about soring anymore - but also the other cruelties. Like the stack of pads, the chains, the tail cutting, the heavy and banded shoe and so on.

    Without those devices most so called highly trained high steppers would not get a knee near the rail.
    from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor



  8. #2468
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    May. 16, 2007
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    Reps. Whitfield, Cohen to Discuss Bill that Strengthens the Horse Protection Act

    WASHINGTON, D.C. - U.S. Rep. Ed Whitfield (R-KY-01) and Rep. Steve Cohen (D-TN-09), will hold a press conference on Thursday, September 13 at 2:00 p.m. to discuss the Horse Protection Act Amendments of 2012, legislation they are co-sponsoring. The Amendment will make changes to the Horse Protection Act of 1970, to provide additional protections to prohibit the soring of horses, an abusive practice used by some horse trainers in the Tennessee Walking Horse industry.

    Details of the Press Conference with Rep. Whitfield and Rep. Cohen:

    WHO: Rep. Ed Whitfield (R-KY-01), Rep. Steve Cohen (D-TN-09)
    WHAT: Press Conference to Discuss Amendments to Strengthen the Horse Protection Act
    WHERE: Rayburn House Office Building 2218
    WHEN: Thursday, September 13, 2012
    TIME: 2:00 p.m.

    Please RSVP to Corry Schiermeyer at corry.schiermeyer@mail.house.gov.
    from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.



  9. #2469
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    Jun. 19, 2011
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    3,755

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    Quote Originally Posted by hurleycane View Post
    It is pretty much not just about soring anymore - but also the other cruelties. Like the stack of pads, the chains, the tail cutting, the heavy and banded shoe and so on.

    Without those devices most so called highly trained high steppers would not get a knee near the rail.
    You wonder why others don't concern themselves with TWH' soring issues. THIS IS AN EXAMPLE

    You and the missing Bayou want ALL training tools removed from all breeds and make them illegal for training on private property when they do NOT cause soring. I have used rollers, chains and stretchies for 40 years and NEVER have had one sore Arabian nor Saddlebred.

    Nicking the tail .... ASB's have classes where it is not used and classes where the nicked tail is used. I have a mare here..who still swishes her tail...swats flies..and has no problem with it OUTDOORS or indoors.

    Notice...this is no longer about soring

    NOW it is about everything a single person (or ten posters)...want to make sure stops for every breed

    What is next?....guess we will have to stay tuned while you spout your "views" and try and inflict them on every other breed



  10. #2470
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    Nov. 8, 2007
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    Not all the tools, just the ones that cause pain and/or discomfort.



  11. #2471
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    What do we want next? Why, a Black President.



  12. #2472
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    Quote Originally Posted by BabyGreen View Post
    Not all the tools, just the ones that cause pain and/or discomfort.
    Darn it..I guess my harness, bridle and saddle will be next to go hahahahahahaha...ever watch a three year old try to resist the "discomfort" of a cinch...saddlepad...saddle...bit..harness?



  13. #2473
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    May. 16, 2007
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    1,141

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    Fairfax is getting twitchy again. Not really here to support those against soring but rather to protect his own interests, right or wrong or somewhere in between.
    from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.



  14. #2474
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    Jun. 19, 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkInTheWoods View Post
    Fairfax is getting twitchy again. Not really here to support those against soring but rather to protect his own interests, right or wrong or somewhere in between.
    In order to outlaw terrorism, you do not ban all religions

    Same applies with the radical movement to stop soring. GREAT IDEALS and WORTHY CAUSE....but you do not threatened everyone else with bans

    Work on your own breed. Let the others work on theirs.



  15. #2475
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    Funny thing about horses, they are completely unaware of the concept of breed, but are aware of the concept of fear and pain.



  16. #2476
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    Quote Originally Posted by BabyGreen View Post
    Funny thing about horses, they are completely unaware of the concept of breed, but are aware of the concept of fear and pain.
    And your point would be?

    Chemicals making the skin raw, coupled with heavy rubbing chains is going to be SORE SORE SORE

    Rollers, stretchies or light chains, used for resistance and awareness training do NOT sore the horse.


    A chain over the nose of a stallion can cause fear and pain and yet no one who handles stallions would ever say the chain should be abolished ALL OF THE TIME.

    I am all for outlawing the soring of the TWH. I am not for those who are TWH involved trying to outlaw all training tools for all other breeds.



  17. #2477
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    May. 16, 2007
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    Now is the time to get busy supporting H.R. 6388, a new bill with new amendments to the Horse Protection Act. Go to the link below and it will walk you through how you can help.

    http://forthetnwalkinghorse.blogspot...-help-new.html
    from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.



  18. #2478
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    Apr. 15, 2003
    Location
    Northeast MA
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    4,178

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    I have tried very hard not to post on this thread, but just can't hold out any more. My comments in blue and then they continue after the quote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fairfax View Post
    Chemicals making the skin raw, coupled with heavy rubbing chains is going to be SORE SORE SORE AGREED

    Rollers, stretchies or light chains, used for resistance and awareness training do NOT sore the horse. Agreed, "when used for training".


    A chain over the nose of a stallion can cause fear and pain and yet no one who handles stallions would ever say the chain should be abolished ALL OF THE TIME. Having owned a stallion, I'd agree, but I'd also say that a well-handled stallion with an educated horseman at the end of a chain shank will rarely ever need to have the chain engaged. It's there for safety.

    I am all for outlawing the soring of the TWH. I am not for those who are TWH involved trying to outlaw all training tools for all other breeds.
    Also agreed.


    The proper use of training tools is as a tool, not as a permanent fixture. They may assist in reaching the desired outcome, but they are ineffective if the desired outcome doesn't occur without them. As training progresses, the use of the tool should decrease or you're not training, just manipulating (IMHO). Among other things, I don't see that happening with the stacked (or significantly padded) shoes.

    Further, the use of those shoes with or without chains (since we've agreed that soring never acceptable) distorts the horse's balance and motion. You may say that the trotting foals shown somewhere earlier in this thread demonstrate that the exaggerated gait is normal. I suggest you look again. The backs of those foals are parallel to the ground rather than sinking at a 45 degree angle from the withers. That is natural movement if exaggerated for a number of reasons.

    Before someone points out that other disciplines train the horse to "sit" (by which I mean lower the haunches below the normal straight line of the back), let's discuss for a second. As examples let's use a dressage horse's piaffe and a reining horse's slide. The horses are encouraged to sit in those movements for sure. But notice that their forefeet get closer to the hind feet to make the loading of the hind end possible. The forelegs are not being artificially manipulated to get further from the hind legs. Moreover, the piaffing or sliding horse will only do those movements briefly before going forward in a less pronounced gait: they are not kept in those extreme frames for very long even at the highest level shows.

    Once a horse is in the stacked shoes, they stay on 24/7 until when? Do they come off after the class? Do they stay on weeks or months? I would argue that they do not permit any respite from a significant degree of abnormal posture until they're off. Therefore, I wouldn't consider them a training tool but rather a permanent fixture which distorts the horse's unimpeded gait drastically.
    They don't call me frugal for nothing.
    Proud and achy member of the Eventing Grannies clique.



  19. #2479
    Join Date
    Dec. 30, 2006
    Posts
    1,209

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkInTheWoods View Post
    Now is the time to get busy supporting H.R. 6388, a new bill with new amendments to the Horse Protection Act. Go to the link below and it will walk you through how you can help.

    http://forthetnwalkinghorse.blogspot...-help-new.html
    THIS I.S. HUGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


    Fairfax - If only it were just a few imposing 'posters.' It is not. You have been reading this thread - well the parts you want to read And I will not berate you on the finer points of shoeing. But breed away my man. Breed away.

    But LORDY LORDY I can not wait for the HPA to kick it in gear!


    M.O.S.T

    E.X.C.E.L.L.E.N.T.

    P.O.I.N.T.S.

    F.R.U.G.A.L.A.N.N.I.E.!!!
    from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor



  20. #2480
    Join Date
    Aug. 25, 2007
    Posts
    10,584

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    Quote Originally Posted by frugalannie View Post
    I have tried very hard not to post on this thread, but just can't hold out any more. My comments in blue and then they continue after the quote.

    Also agreed.


    The proper use of training tools is as a tool, not as a permanent fixture. They may assist in reaching the desired outcome, but they are ineffective if the desired outcome doesn't occur without them. As training progresses, the use of the tool should decrease or you're not training, just manipulating (IMHO). Among other things, I don't see that happening with the stacked (or significantly padded) shoes.

    Further, the use of those shoes with or without chains (since we've agreed that soring never acceptable) distorts the horse's balance and motion. You may say that the trotting foals shown somewhere earlier in this thread demonstrate that the exaggerated gait is normal. I suggest you look again. The backs of those foals are parallel to the ground rather than sinking at a 45 degree angle from the withers. That is natural movement if exaggerated for a number of reasons.

    Before someone points out that other disciplines train the horse to "sit" (by which I mean lower the haunches below the normal straight line of the back), let's discuss for a second. As examples let's use a dressage horse's piaffe and a reining horse's slide. The horses are encouraged to sit in those movements for sure. But notice that their forefeet get closer to the hind feet to make the loading of the hind end possible. The forelegs are not being artificially manipulated to get further from the hind legs. Moreover, the piaffing or sliding horse will only do those movements briefly before going forward in a less pronounced gait: they are not kept in those extreme frames for very long even at the highest level shows.

    Once a horse is in the stacked shoes, they stay on 24/7 until when? Do they come off after the class? Do they stay on weeks or months? I would argue that they do not permit any respite from a significant degree of abnormal posture until they're off. Therefore, I wouldn't consider them a training tool but rather a permanent fixture which distorts the horse's unimpeded gait drastically.
    Very well said.

    The various action devices found on horses (any horses) are not training devices, they are anti-training devices. A training device or aid, such as the leg, is applied to get a certain result and when that result is obtained it is removed (at least to neutral). This is often summarized as "pressure-release."

    The "action device" is always "on." There is never a release. If the horse performs correctly, it is "pressured." If it performs incorrectly, it is "pressured." NO training ever occurs.

    It is an open question as to whether a few ounces on the leg of a 1000 pound horse has any lasting physical effect, positive or negative, over time. If those few ounces cause a change in way of going then we have to look at that change, not the few ounces, and look at the effects that flow from said change.

    I don't favor Federal action to outlaw "action devices," but I cannot have much respect for anyone who uses them.

    G.
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão



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