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  1. #1
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    Default Are these deal breakers?

    I am looking at a young mare that has been started correctly and then her training stopped because the owner has no time. The mare seems healthy but because she has not been in constant work we did a very thorough PPE. The flexions were good and then we moved on to xrays. The vet said a tiny spur on the hock but the cartilage was fine, and somethng he called lollypop spots on the navicular bone but the horse is sound.. there was a tiny bit of reaction on one hoof testing but the mare had just been trimmed and was on hard ground, she is barefoot...
    The vet seemed to have no problem with this mare and said he would recommend buying her. Does any of this sound like this would be a deal breaker? She has a fantastic mind and is as sweet as can be.....
    Mai Tai aka Tyler RIP March 1994-December 2011
    Grief is the price we pay for love- Gretchen Jackson
    "And here she comes. Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No, it's ZENYATTA!"



  2. #2
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    Can you take the mare on trial? Hock issues really don't bother me, tend to be easy to maintain and there are a lot of things you can do to keep them comfortable. I don't like changes in the hoof, so I'd want to take the mare on trial to see that she stays sound while in regular work. If she was in work for 90 days without anything popping up, then I probably would not be bothered. There's a big difference between an iffy PPE on an actively showing horse, with a show record vs. the pasture puff.



  3. #3
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    I agree with you. I am waiting to hear from my vet.. having her on trial is not the problem. She has to be shipped quite a distance that is the issue....the cost of shipping her back and forth is the problem....
    Mai Tai aka Tyler RIP March 1994-December 2011
    Grief is the price we pay for love- Gretchen Jackson
    "And here she comes. Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No, it's ZENYATTA!"



  4. #4
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    If you have second thoughts about the horse's soundness based on the PPE, then don't buy her. If you can't take the risk of having her on trial because you don't want to risk paying shipping both ways, then pass. There are other horses out there and maybe you can find one closer to home.
    Where Norwegian Fjords Rule
    http://www.ironwood-farm.com



  5. #5
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    IME navicular x-rays do not predict soundness well--there are horses out there competing soundly for years with terrible x-rays, while the horses with clinical symptoms diagnosed with navicular disease sometimes only show mild changes.

    I don't think anything you list has to be a dealbreaker, but I guess from what you've said my concern would be that she sounds young and as though she has not been in consistent, heavy work for much time, which gives you less soundness history to go on. If she had been eventing at your chosen level for years those findings would be nothing.



  6. #6
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    Default

    Agreed with all above. Things come up when a horse is in work and you don't want to be posting a horror story in a month. Pass, and find another.

    If the people really want to sell her they will put her in work anyhow.
    "Passion, though a bad regulator, is a powerful spring." -- Emerson
    www.eventhorse.wordpress.com



  7. #7
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    Default

    [QUOTE=ivy62;6183084
    The vet seemed to have no problem with this mare and said he would recommend buying her. Does any of this sound like this would be a deal breaker? She has a fantastic mind and is as sweet as can be.....[/QUOTE]

    You paid for a professional opinion. I would follow that. If you want to be extra careful....pay for your vet at home to look at the xrays and PPE and give you a second opinion.

    No one here on the BB has seen the horse or has the expertise to advise you. No horse will vet perfectly clean...and even if you did find one...no guarantee they will not break a leg stepping in a hole or get kicked etc.

    With today's vet equipment...they can find things now that went unseen years ago. I listen to my vet if they tell me nothing they have found they think will be an issue. Nothing you posted seems to be a deal breaker to me.

    I buy young horses all the time....I don't think ANYTHING I've ever found on a PPE was an issue. The crap they do themselves in the field has usually caused me the most issues!
    ** The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits. -- Albert Einstein **



  8. #8
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    Default

    I am waiting for my vet to see the xrays and we video taped the flexions. If she says a okay no problem I trust her. I guess I am just nervous because I have a pasture puff that was fine and now is not, he got hurt in our field, and then I had the horse of a lifetime and he broke his leg in a pasture accident and we lost him. Also, the fact that she has not really worked steady..

    I have been horse shopping and it has been very depressing. Nothing seems to work for me the way our guy did. The one thing nice about this deal is if I do not like her I can send her back but still the outlay of money is there...
    I will wait and see what MY vet says....

    Thanks for listening
    Mai Tai aka Tyler RIP March 1994-December 2011
    Grief is the price we pay for love- Gretchen Jackson
    "And here she comes. Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No, it's ZENYATTA!"



  9. #9
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    BFEN summed up my thinking. All horses have something and with modern equipment you will be able to find things that you may not have years ago. I have also found that some vets equipment finds things that other vets equipment does not. I had one horse that had findings with one vet and was vetted with same x-rays taken by a different vet and nothing was found. He was super sound so I didn't worry about it and figured it would all work out.

    Some findings are quite minor and may never be an issue. All horses have some sort of abnormalities. You have to be able to figure out what you can live with. Some of my soundest horses have been horses that had major findings on xrays but never went lame. I typically just follow my gut and then stop stressing. Buy what you want to ride and just have fun.

    I bought myself a horse that raced 55 times over 6yrs at the track. I'm sure he has findings if I xrayed everything but I really don't want to know them all. He is sound and I figure he ran that much and stayed sound so I'm not going to worry about breaking him.

    My goofy horses tend to hurt themselves doing other things like acting like jackasses in the field. That is what stresses me



  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by ivy62 View Post
    I am waiting for my vet to see the xrays and we video taped the flexions. If she says a okay no problem I trust her. I guess I am just nervous because I have a pasture puff that was fine and now is not, he got hurt in our field, and then I had the horse of a lifetime and he broke his leg in a pasture accident and we lost him. Also, the fact that she has not really worked steady..

    I have been horse shopping and it has been very depressing. Nothing seems to work for me the way our guy did. The one thing nice about this deal is if I do not like her I can send her back but still the outlay of money is there...
    I will wait and see what MY vet says....

    Thanks for listening

    Unfortunately that is horses. They are heart breakers. Best thing to do is change your own mind set. Stop looking for your "dream" horse. Look for a horse you think you will have some fun and perhaps learn something with.....they may turn out to be your dream horse or not (those dream horses have a way of finding you--you don't find them). But be prepared.....even if they vet perfectly clean..that is just that one day and the next could be something wrong. That is downside/risk of horse ownership. You have to take the bad with the good! Hope that she works out for you.
    ** The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits. -- Albert Einstein **



  11. #11
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    Lollipop lesions in the navicular bother me not one bit, but if the horse had crappy feet to go with them I'd probably pass. Same with little spurs in the joints--you go looking with digital X-rays you'll probably find SOMETHING. If the horse is built to last, it probably will. Give me good conformation over good X-rays every time.
    Click here before you buy.



  12. #12
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    Default

    My take is what DW and BFNE said. I use vets I trust for PPEs and won't buy a horse in an area where I don't have access to a vet I feel is highly qualified to help me with decisions about sport horses. I am a bit more lenient on the crappy fit as I have a ridiculously good farrier (of course, he hates me because of this sentiment). Still, I just bought one that didn't x-ray perfectly clean and had sore feet due to thin soles and having had the shoes pulled 5 days prior to the PPE. I figure all horses are a crapshoot. Might as well buy the ones you feel a good connection to so that you like dealing with them in rehab or whatever when they (apparently inevitably) aren't sound for whatever period of time.
    OTTBs rule, but spots are good too!



  13. #13
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    Default

    IME navicular x-rays do not predict soundness well--there are horses out there competing soundly for years with terrible x-rays, while the horses with clinical symptoms diagnosed with navicular disease sometimes only show mild changes.
    [QUOTE]
    you go looking with digital X-rays you'll probably find SOMETHING. If the horse is built to last, it probably will. Give me good conformation over good X-rays every time.



    I agree 100% I took a VERy reduced price for a horse w/ lollypoops and navicular changes who was in steady work on and off over a period of 3 years...because I got the Oh he will be so hard to re-sell, he may not stay sound...even though the PPE Vet and a 2nd opinion from premier vet hospital Both said healthy foot no sign of active disease, its just the foot he came with...fast forward..Horse is still sound foot still healthy was re-sold for $$$ and is eventing....

    Listen to your gut, ask good hard question, and look @ the future you want w/ the horse.
    Last edited by judybigredpony; Mar. 8, 2012 at 12:57 PM. Reason: sp



  14. #14
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    Default

    I want to do first level dressage and my daughter wants to event. So I would like a horse with and good sound mind and good gaits. How far we both get remains to be seen.....The horse is really for me but if she could do both jobs that would be awesome..not counting on it...
    Mai Tai aka Tyler RIP March 1994-December 2011
    Grief is the price we pay for love- Gretchen Jackson
    "And here she comes. Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No, it's ZENYATTA!"



  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by bornfreenowexpensive View Post
    You paid for a professional opinion. I would follow that. If you want to be extra careful....pay for your vet at home to look at the xrays and PPE and give you a second opinion.

    No one here on the BB has seen the horse or has the expertise to advise you. No horse will vet perfectly clean...and even if you did find one...no guarantee they will not break a leg stepping in a hole or get kicked etc.

    With today's vet equipment...they can find things now that went unseen years ago. I listen to my vet if they tell me nothing they have found they think will be an issue. Nothing you posted seems to be a deal breaker to me.

    I buy young horses all the time....I don't think ANYTHING I've ever found on a PPE was an issue. The crap they do themselves in the field has usually caused me the most issues!

    THIS. -- Why pay for a vet's opinion only to ask people on the Internet, who do not know you, do not know the horse, do not know the use intended for the horse.....

    If you are not comfortable with one vet's opinion, get a second vet to read the x-rays. That is a much more reasonable approach to making a decision.
    "I used to have money, now I have horses."



  16. #16
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    Default

    It just boils down to money. The OP can take the horse on trial. She just is adverse to risking her money if the horse doesn't work out. Personally, I think she is lucky that someone would even let the horse go on trial, much less to an out-of-state location. It's merely a matter of whether the OP wants to risk the money.

    In all fairness, if the horse doesn't work out, having that option of shipping back is quite good. The cost of selling an unsuitable horse can quickly add up to more than the return shipping fee. If it is not going to work out, it's almost always better and cheaper to cut your losses.
    Where Norwegian Fjords Rule
    http://www.ironwood-farm.com



  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronwoodFarm View Post
    It just boils down to money. The OP can take the horse on trial. She just is adverse to risking her money if the horse doesn't work out. Personally, I think she is lucky that someone would even let the horse go on trial, much less to an out-of-state location. It's merely a matter of whether the OP wants to risk the money.

    In all fairness, if the horse doesn't work out, having that option of shipping back is quite good. The cost of selling an unsuitable horse can quickly add up to more than the return shipping fee. If it is not going to work out, it's almost always better and cheaper to cut your losses.
    Exactly! Unless you're talking FL to CA shipping won't be THAT much money. Certainly less than keeping a horse for the rest of its life if it gets hurt or doesn't meet your needs.

    The findings on PPE would not bother me that much on a horse that has been in work. But it's really hard to know how an unworked horse will hold up once you get down to some real work. If the seller is willing to let you try the horse that is a nice option.

    Horse shopping is hard. After a few missteps where I went ahead with a purchase despite the little warning voice going off in my head I've decided if there is any hesitation in my mind I don't go through with it. Only you can make that call though. If I didn't love the horse enough to eat the return shipping cost I would not go through with it.

    Good luck and let us know what you decide.



  18. #18
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    I guess I do not trust my own judgement. The final decision will come from my vet. The return shipping would be from New York to Texas, so not right around the corner. If my vet says go ahead with her blessing I will. My trainer really likes the horse. She knows me and what my goals are. She was not upset by any of the findings so hopefully, my vet will agree.....

    I was just asking for people experiences. I will make up my own mind. For istance, have those lollipops ever caused a problem? I never heard of them before so it was new to me... Stuff like that...
    Mai Tai aka Tyler RIP March 1994-December 2011
    Grief is the price we pay for love- Gretchen Jackson
    "And here she comes. Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No, it's ZENYATTA!"



  19. #19
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    I had a horse with lollipop lesions who jumped 4' courses, sound. Rode on hard ground, sound, though he was thin-soled and we ended up putting pads on just because every clod of dirt he hit was enough to make him flinch. He ended up retiring from "real" work and became a babysitter for a family who barely did more than walk after developing arthritis in his hocks (but still sound) - but the navicular was never an issue. He did get isoxuprine at first, it was something he had at 9, not very young, and he was still sound in his late teens. He was also a huge QH - 16h, 58" girth.
    My horse is a dressage diva so I don't have to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by katarine
    If you have a fat gay horse that likes Parelli, you're really screwed



  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ivy62 View Post
    I guess I do not trust my own judgement. The final decision will come from my vet. The return shipping would be from New York to Texas, so not right around the corner. If my vet says go ahead with her blessing I will. My trainer really likes the horse. She knows me and what my goals are. She was not upset by any of the findings so hopefully, my vet will agree.....
    When you don't trust your own judgement...you do exactly as you are doing...trust your own trainer and vet. If you trainer really likes this horse....and your like the trainer...then that is very good.

    For what you want to do....nothing you have posted would cause me a ton of concern. If the tiny spur looks like it is causing any issue in the future...that is pretty easy and not very expensive to fix as long as you stay on top of it. A few spots on the xrays also rarely are any issue.

    For the level dressage you are talking....most horses can do this. I think the biggest risk you are taking is buying a greener horse. You will have to give her the time and training to develop. I personally love green horses...but you can not always tell if they will want to do the job you want them too. But that is where you can have some fun and learn some things while on the journey to find out what job she does well.
    Last edited by bornfreenowexpensive; Mar. 8, 2012 at 08:43 PM.
    ** The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits. -- Albert Einstein **



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