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  1. #1
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    Default Dogs Chase Horses. Dog Owner Says Train Horses Not to Spook.

    Off leash dog owners vs. horse stable owner in Colorado. Someone needs to put these dog owners on a horse and have their dogs chase the horse they are on.

    http://www.9news.com/seenon9news/article.aspx?storyid=181791&catid=509

    Forget cats, at Cherry Creek State Park, the fight is between horses and dogs. It has even escalated to the point that one man claims it is hurting his 40-year-old business and could force him to close.

    The Paint Horse Stables are the only place to ride in the southeast metro area.

    "To have this close down where people don't have the opportunity to ride horses is just a shame," Hantschel said with tears in his eyes. "You know, watching kids when they come out to our camps, and they look up at the horses, and they're going, 'Geez, what am I doing here?' By the end of the week, they can brush, bridal, saddle their own horses."

    The horseman hasn't administered a trail ride since May of last year.

    "The dogs chase the horses and it creates a dangerous condition, and we can't allow for people to get hurt out here," Hantschel said. "Over the last two to three years, it's escalated to the point where we can't open."

    Although park officials voted months ago to downsize areas for off-leash dog parks at Cherry Creek State Park, Hantschel says it hasn't helped.

    Park officials say they plan to build a fence to try to separate the dogs and horses. Dog owners say they think it comes down to being responsible for your animals.

    "Just like it's our responsibility to train our dogs not to approach the horses, I'm wondering if he can train his horses not to be spooked by our dogs," dog park user Stacy McDonald said.
    "No matter how well you perform there's always somebody of intelligent opinion who thinks it's lousy." - Laurence Olivier



  2. #2
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    Default

    Uh, I'm sorry, but I'm going to agree with the dog owners. It's a public park, they're the majority, the one horse business does not have to be catered to. If he's got a string of child-safe trail ponies they should all be "dog broke" anyway.

    I take my horse out on the trail fully expecting to run into dogs....and have there be no issue. He knows what a dog is, he knows what a dog barking is, he has no reason on earth to be afraid of either. A dog can only chase a horse that's running, and no well-trained trail horse (certainly not one touted as child safe) should be running from a dog.

    Horses can foxhunt with a pack of dogs. A single nosy mutt out on the trail is no issue. The chatty ones are usually just that...all bark and no bite. Often shut up with a stern "Quiet!" from the rider on the horse. Trotting quickly at a braver dog will back them up right quick. My mule will happily stamp on a dog who comes too close--he is not a foxhunting candidate! My QH is a well-behaved boy who can handle dogs weaving around his legs but would likely kick if bitten, which he has every right to do.

    The horse world needs to shake off the prissy, stuck up, uber-rich pampered babies image we're projecting. Horses will be kicked out of parks LONG BEFORE dogs will, hate to break it to you all. So it's up to us to be responsible riders and get out there and put our best faces on. That means no snipping at the couple with the cute spaniel who just wants to bounce up and investigate the horsey. Stop your horse, mention kindly that you're worried about the dog's safety in regards to kicking but if they want to catch up their dog and bring it closer in a safe way to investigate, that's perfectly fine. Make friends, not enemies. Someone who has had a good experience with a horse and horse owner out on the trail is not going to be someone lobbying to get horses kicked off said trail.

    Flame suit on. But whoever thinks it's okay for their horse to act like a fool around dogs needs to keep their horse on their own private property where they can insure that no dogs will be around. Not take said idiotic beast out into the world and then yell at the MAJORITY that they MUST change to suit poor precious Dobbin.



  3. #3
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    Default

    Well these dog owners shouldn't be too concerned if their dog gets kicked and killed by a horse.

    Better yet, let them go to court for damages to a injured rider or horse. Yep, that should put a nice dent in their kid's college fund.
    "No matter how well you perform there's always somebody of intelligent opinion who thinks it's lousy." - Laurence Olivier



  4. #4
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    Default

    I think it kind of depends on exactly what the dog is doing.
    My horses are all completely used to dogs, we have them, neighbors have them. No problem.
    Last Sunday I took my very green youngster out for a solo ride. Along the trail I came upon two girls attempting to walk a large bulldog type thing. Except it was dragging them towards my horse while practically choking itself on the nylon collar and leash. All the while they are saying how "He just doesn't like horses."
    I didn't feel threatened, however was accutely aware of the fact that if that idiot dog got away from them I was gonna be going on a wild ride.
    I'm pretty sure my colt Cartman would have kicked the crap out of that stupid dog anyway.
    Later on I ran into a jogger with a HUGE Siberian Husky. He was kind enough to ask me if my colt was OK with dogs. I told him my colt was absolutely good with dogs. He proceeded to let his dog off the leash, but this well trained dog just kept right on jogging with him, completely ignoring the horse.
    I think that people that can't control their dogs shouldn't be taking them out in public- actually that goes for their kids too!



  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Matson View Post
    Well these dog owners shouldn't be too concerned if their dog gets kicked and killed by a horse.

    Better yet, let them go to court for damages to a injured rider or horse. Yep, that should put a nice dent in their kid's college fund.
    By the quote above, it already sounds like they're being more than accomodating by being responsible dog owners and understanding that they need to train their dogs not to chase horses.

    Expecting a little effort from the riders in regards to training their horses, so that everyone can co-exist peacefully, is more than reasonable.

    AGAIN, people, listen up. The horses will get kicked off long before the dogs. You can b&moan about having to train your horse, or you can b&moan about having no place to ride once horses are kicked off public property.



  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by certifiedgirl View Post
    I think that people that can't control their dogs shouldn't be taking them out in public- actually that goes for their kids too!
    Totally agree about the kids!

    Can we agree, though, that similarly, people who cannot control their horses should not take them out in public either? That a little respect and common sense is due on BOTH sides? It sounds like the dog owners are really trying to make things work in this situation.



  7. #7
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    Yes, I do agree that uncontrollable horses shouldn't be out in public either. They are just as likely to get another rider dumped as an aggressive dog.
    I do doubt, though, that my horse is going to uncontrollably charge and attack a dog. If he did, he certainly wouldn't be going to the park anymore!



  8. #8
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    Well my horses are used to dogs but let us not forget that in a pack situation sometimes things get out of hand. All you need is a couple of the well trained critters to decide it's fun to chase them and you have a bad situation. I mean, hello, horses are flight animals and dogs are predators. And even if it wasn't a park what about the many threads we have on here about horses maimed and even killed by dogs so not taking the instinct out of my horse works for me.

    I despise dogs that chase horses really. Mine don't because I don't like the pesky vet bills that come with horses and even my dogs for that matter because they've done something stupid. My former horse dentist showed up her with her dog one day and promptly let him out of the truck. He took off into my field with the 2 foals and starting chasing them. I flipped. Really it was rude behavoir anyway to just let your dog out on someone else's farm but a dog that can't behave around horses is just stupid. Would this have been my fault because my foals weren't properly used to dogs?

    I don't know where all you live but here in Ireland, your dog will most likely be shot for chasing livestock. Occasionally we get stray dog packs that cause damage to livestock and horses. I don't want my horses standing and waiting for an attack as much as I don't want them chased through a fence running blind.

    I also think there's a big difference in being chased and spooking at a dog/s. My horses won't spook at dogs doing all sorts of silly things and yappy barking wouldn't even get their attention, but full on chasing? Something completely different and I put dog owner in the wrong. And guess what, if that dog takes off in the park and doesn't listen to it's owner and decides to chase a horse, why are they not at fault? Obviously not well trained. Why is it the horse owner's fault because her flight animal decided to flee from a predator?

    If I'm going to put my horse in this situation, then yes, I would have to prepare better. If I was taking my dogs to this type of situation, then they would expect to behave as well and to not chase horses.

    Terri
    COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

    "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.



  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Equilibrium View Post
    Well my horses are used to dogs but let us not forget that in a pack situation sometimes things get out of hand. All you need is a couple of the well trained critters to decide it's fun to chase them and you have a bad situation. I mean, hello, horses are flight animals and dogs are predators. And even if it wasn't a park what about the many threads we have on here about horses maimed and even killed by dogs so not taking the instinct out of my horse works for me.
    There's nothing mentioned about a "pack situation" in the article, so I think that's jumping to assumptions. A giant pack of dogs attacking a string of trail ponies carting children around is a different story than maybe one dog sniffing around.

    And no, you don't necessarily want to take the instinct out of your horse...but if you're sitting on said horse saying "It's okay, it's just a bouncy puppy.." well, that horse better listen or it really should not be out in public where it can potentially hurt someone.

    Cause guess what? If your 1000lb prey animal takes off because of a dog, and mows a few people over, YOU are at fault for not controlling your animal properly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Equilibrium View Post
    took off into my field with the 2 foals and starting chasing them. I flipped. Really it was rude behavoir anyway to just let your dog out on someone else's farm but a dog that can't behave around horses is just stupid. Would this have been my fault because my foals weren't properly used to dogs?
    Yes, that is rude. A dog chasing your foals around on your private property, however, is different than a horse over-reacting to a dog in a PUBLICLY SHARED SPACE.


    Quote Originally Posted by Equilibrium View Post
    I don't know where all you live but here in Ireland, your dog will most likely be shot for chasing livestock. Occasionally we get stray dog packs that cause damage to livestock and horses. I don't want my horses standing and waiting for an attack as much as I don't want them chased through a fence running blind.
    I can tell you right now that a bunch of crazy middle-aged horse women with guns shooting any dog romping through the PUBLIC PARK is not going to go down well.

    BTW, I'm curious why you think that training a horse to behave under saddle while out on the trail is going to translate to that horse standing and waiting to die while out in the pasture? My mule knows full well that if he's attached to me, and I'm walking him near our dogs, he better not even think about cocking an ear at them. But I have seen a dog wander into his pasture, and man, that dog booked it outta there the second he saw that mule barreling towards him!

    In much the same way that you expect your horse not to buck/rear/etc under saddle, but are fine with out in the pasture, your horse should otherwise behave under saddle. They know the difference between "work" and "play" time.


    Quote Originally Posted by Equilibrium View Post
    And guess what, if that dog takes off in the park and doesn't listen to it's owner and decides to chase a horse, why are they not at fault? Obviously not well trained. Why is it the horse owner's fault because her flight animal decided to flee from a predator?
    They are at fault, and if you note the exact quote in the article, it appears that at least most of the dog owners realize that their dogs need to be trained...and are simply asking the same from the horse owners. And it's the horse owners fault that her animal decided to flee from a predator because she is the one who brought her 1000lb flight animal into the PUBLIC PARK to begin with.

    We're not talking about dogs on private land. We're talking about a PUBLIC SPACE that EVERYONE should have access to, where a MINORITY GROUP wants special catering. Why should the dogs be restricted to one tiny area of the park? What's next? Bikers, because horses spook at them, too? Again, horse owners, as the MINORITY, need to learn to play well with others, or we're going to be booted off of the public land by the MAJORITY.


    Quote Originally Posted by Equilibrium View Post
    If I'm going to put my horse in this situation, then yes, I would have to prepare better. If I was taking my dogs to this type of situation, then they would expect to behave as well and to not chase horses.

    Terri
    Then you agree with the dog owners. They are stating that their dogs are trained, and simply asking for the horses to be so as well. Seems fair to me.



  10. #10
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    Yes, title implies chase! The word chase is what drew my attention sarcastic Sally! The word chase means to me dog decided not to listen to his owner and took off running at the horse. That is not cool. Even less cool in a public park. It would not be acceptable for my dogs to run off over anything in a public park, so no I don't agree with dog owners. Quite different than a bouncy puppy don't you think? Or even a gentle cruise up on said horse. I have a GSD dog so my horses are quite used to any if that malarky and are used to one following them around.

    And what I'm on about with regards to not being in a park is that I do a lot of road work in which I go by lots of houses with dogs. As of yet no dogs go chasing the horses. Bark, come galloping up, but no chasing. Course most people in Ireland who have dogs in a rural setting do tend to have a fenced in yard. Not for my protection, or horses protection, but for dogs protection. And the ones that dont, don't for a reason.

    And the bit about my dentist on private property, well that goes to show that's it's not only horse owners that are rude and fruitbattin crazy. It applies to dog owners as well. Nothing worse than a dog owner with 100 pds of ill mannered does nothing wrong bundle of joy that never has to take any responsibility because her dog was being a dog.

    Glad I own both because and have working interaction with both multiple times daily because at least I expect good behaviour from both flight animal and predator.

    Terri
    COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

    "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.



  11. #11
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    I can handle a dog chasing my horse, most of us probably can with no problem, but most folks on a trail string ride are hardly accomplished riders. What about that beginner that panics, not realizing that the horse isn't going to do anything wrong? The freaked out rider may cause a normally bomb-proof horse to do something stupid. Or that beginner may be unseated by the horse doing a half-hearted one-legged kick at a dog.

    Most trail ride horses that I've encountered are pretty much broke to death deadheads, unlikely to be bothered by a goofy pup. If the stable owner has this type of horse for his string, than there probably truly is a chasing dog problem.



  12. #12
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    I see both sides. Dogs that chase horses drive me crazy, but I think many horses, especially those types in the capacity of carting beginners around, can and should be desensitized to it. I'm having a hard time understanding how these horses are so easily spooked...maybe they aren't the best pick for the job?

    I have an obnoxious blue heeler. She will stand in the field and bark and jump at back legs all day long if I left her out there. I had 9 here last summer...ranging from TB and QH mares, super-sensitive TBx ponies, a 3yo WB gelding, etc., and none of them react to her except to chase her out of the field when she gets annoying enough. My QH/Welsh x will slowly kick one leg out at her while grazing. I also raised a "crazy" TB filly and she was actually the first one to plant a hoof on the heeler's noggin. She was never scared of him...I guess she saw that mama wasn't...

    A trainer that used to come to our place also refused to let me put our dogs up during lessons. Our ring is surround by woods, and the dogs running around in the dry leaves and suddenly "appearing" would cause some minor, and not so minor, spooks. Now, no one reacts to it. That also has come in handy and I am glad I got that advice.

    Now, the dogs are always confined when not supervised, but I've watched this behavior for years and I've never had anything here that was freaked out by bad dog. Luck, or maybe the new horses watch the reaction of the old ones and decide she's really no threat? I don't know. Maybe I just have smarter than average horses...but it comes in handy when trail riding or showing around idiots. Once, during a show, the show manager's border collie ran laps around the ring chasing horses while they were schooling.

    On the other hand, when my dogs chase something and I speak, they will stop in their tracks and return to me no matter what (it's when I'm not looking that's the problem ). No excuse for dogs being allowed to chase someone else's horses.



  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Equilibrium View Post
    Yes, title implies chase! The word chase is what drew my attention sarcastic Sally! The word chase means to me dog decided not to listen to his owner and took off running at the horse. That is not cool. Even less cool in a public park. It would not be acceptable for my dogs to run off over anything in a public park, so no I don't agree with dog owners. .......

    ....And what I'm on about with regards to not being in a park is that I do a lot of road work in which I go by lots of houses with dogs......

    ....And the bit about my dentist on private property, well that goes to show that's it's not only horse owners that are rude and fruitbattin crazy. It applies to dog owners as well. Nothing worse than a dog owner with 100 pds of ill mannered does nothing wrong bundle of joy that never has to take any responsibility because her dog was being a dog. .....

    Glad I own both because and have working interaction with both multiple times daily because at least I expect good behaviour from both flight animal and predator.

    Terri
    Sarcastic Sally? Nice.

    I didn't say that no dogs were potentially chasing the horses. You mentioned something about a PACK of dogs, which is an entirely different story and mentioned no where in the article. In addition, it is important to note that the title is created by the original poster, it was not the title of the article.

    You DO agree with the dog owners!! You're stating that dogs need to be trained to not run at the horses. That's EXACTLY what the dog owner spokesperson says in the very last quote. They are just asking for some understanding and respect from the horse owners, which is perfectly reasonable.

    This article is not about road work, though. This article is about riders choosing to bring their horses into an off-leash dog park, and then complaining about the dogs.

    I absolutely agree that dogs need to be well-mannered. It seems that the dog owners of this park do as well. They are just asking that the horse owners not be so over-reactive.

    I also think you need to read the article again, because your last statement shows that you side completely with the dog owners in this situation, who state "we train our dogs, please train your horses."



  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Matson View Post
    "Just like it's our responsibility to train our dogs not to approach the horses, I'm wondering if he can train his horses not to be spooked by our dogs," dog park user Stacy McDonald said.[/I]
    or he could swing the horses backward into the dogs and let Mother Nature sort it out

    Tamara in TN
    Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
    I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.



  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by BelladonnaLily View Post
    I see both sides. Dogs that chase horses drive me crazy, but I think many horses, especially those types in the capacity of carting beginners around, can and should be desensitized to it. I'm having a hard time understanding how these horses are so easily spooked...maybe they aren't the best pick for the job?

    .......

    A trainer that used to come to our place also refused to let me put our dogs up during lessons. Our ring is surround by woods, and the dogs running around in the dry leaves and suddenly "appearing" would cause some minor, and not so minor, spooks. Now, no one reacts to it. That also has come in handy and I am glad I got that advice.

    .......

    On the other hand, when my dogs chase something and I speak, they will stop in their tracks and return to me no matter what (it's when I'm not looking that's the problem ). No excuse for dogs being allowed to chase someone else's horses.
    It seems like that might be the case.

    Your trainer is a GENIUS! It is one thing for a horse to startle just because, well, something unexpected happened! (Hey, my horse usually startles because I throw myself outta the saddle when a deer pops out!) But to take off in a blind panic? (Eliciting a chase response from the doggies.) That's not acceptable, particularly in a child-proof trail string pony.

    No, there's not, and I hope no one thinks I'm arguing that. But it seems that in this particular case, the dog owners are trying their hardest to get along, by stating that yes, their dogs do need to be trained. They are not insisting on segregation. It's the horse owners putting up a fuss, which is going to get them kicked off of the public land by majority vote, as well as tarnish the already inaccurate reputation that horse people have as rich and snobby.



  16. #16
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    Most dog parks are fenced in for the dog's protection. Having loose dogs in a public park with no fence does not seem like a good idea for anyone. Hopefully the fence will get built and everyone will be happy.

    "The dogs chase the horses and it creates a dangerous condition, and we can't allow for people to get hurt out here," Hantschel said. "Over the last two to three years, it's escalated to the point where we can't open."

    Seems to me from the above quote the dogs were chasing the horses. Horses can be taught not to spook but not to run from a large barking dog? I don't know? They are flight animals. Where I ride dogs are supposed to be on leashes but it is a big park and often I come across dogs off leash. I handle it, my horses handle it but if a dog actually came up behind my horse and chased it I can't guarantee the dog won't get kicked. Never happened, but it certainly could.

    I am a huge dog lover and my dog runs free at my barn, she know she is not supposed to chase horses. However I would not take my dog to a park with no fence to run loose particularly if there are horse trail rides coming through. How do they restrict the dogs to certain areas anyway? A dog that catches a scent can easily be distracted and run from the "area" if off leash and not trained well enough. So one spokesman says their dog should be trained, well we all know that is just one dog owner, not ALL of them.

    Fence the dogs in and keep them on the leash until the fence is built.



  17. #17
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    There are some major differences.

    Dogs..carnivore, Horses...made of meat...horses run from animals seeing them as meat when they don't know them.

    Foxhunting...hounds don't chase the field. If they do...'BANG!", no more problem.

    As ill-behaved as most kids are nowadays, dogs are just as out of control....packs of horses don't attack and kill dogs/people...dogs do.

    Riders have a 5' fall to earth, dog owners may be hoarse from yelling at their dog, no other injuries due to ill-behaviour.

    Maybe a couple of mule riders should accompany a ride or two....I know my guy would happily stomp into paste any dog stupid enough to think about chasing him.

    Start bringing a hunt crop along and if they've got a horse who dislikes dogs, go after them. Bring out staining pepper spray in a full bear-size container. Don't initiate the problem, but resolve it quickly.
    "Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc"



  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trakehner View Post

    Maybe a couple of mule riders should accompany a ride or two....I know my guy would happily stomp into paste any dog stupid enough to think about chasing him.

    .
    I have yet to know a horse that would let a dog merrily grab a hind pastern w/o some "natural" consequences

    Tamara in TN
    Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
    I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.



  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamara in TN View Post
    I have yet to know a horse that would let a dog merrily grab a hind pastern w/o some "natural" consequences

    Tamara in TN
    And I think that's fine, personally. While I don't want my horse kicking at random dogs just wandering around his legs, if a dog has the guts to try to take a bite out of my horse, well, then he has the right to throw a few punches back.

    Trak, the reason I brought up foxhunting is to mention that it's not unreasonable or unrealistic for a horse to be pretty much desensitized to dogs bubbling around them.



  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by bizbachfan View Post
    So one spokesman says their dog should be trained, well we all know that is just one dog owner, not ALL of them.

    Fence the dogs in and keep them on the leash until the fence is built.
    Yes, it is just one dog owner. But that quote would lead you to believe that even the other dog owners expect all dogs to behave around horses, and would inform their peers of that.

    In the parks around me, dogs are off-leash all the time, having a ball. Fencing is expensive, and most dog owners don't want to walk laps around the half-acre dog park all day. I just think it's unreasonable for the minority (horses) to dictate to the majority (dogs) what they should be doing/where they have to be/etc.

    It's reasonable for both sides to expect the other side to be well-trained and respect the others. I have made many friends out on the trail because a big giant dog bounded up to my horse, and I just politely asked the dog owner to catch the dog up and introduce it properly, chatting with them all the while. I'm a dog person (currently holding steady at three sleeping on my bed every night!) and I love chatting about dogs, and in making myself seem like a friendly, normal person to a dog walker, they are more responsive to the idea of getting their dog over the excitement of horses and teaching it how to properly act around one.

    Catch more flies with honey than vinegar, you know?



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