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  1. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by sadlmakr View Post
    Does this above mentioned styles, RK and LDR promote the graceful and proper riding techniques?
    Some of the shows I last attended had horses way behind the perpendicular. Over bent and a bad looking picture of a death grip on the reins. Yet these horses were placed in the line-up in first, second and third places.
    It reminds me of the Quarter Horses and their Peanut Rollers heads down to the ground look.
    Why is this RK and LDR promoted? Does it show off the horse to his benefit?
    Collection is not done by pulling the horse down to where his chin is on his chest.
    Is this just another passing fad?
    I am not showing in this field but I do go to watch the trials and watch what is getting placed where.
    What about going back to the basics?
    I am probably being nieve as an observer but I see so much being done in lots of the Horse oriented sports that make me wonder what is going to develope in the future.
    Does the fact that a well known name in this sport does it, make it right?
    I know I am probably out of touch with the new things in these sports but I am looking at it from the on-looker's view point.
    This JMHO, so don't throw shoes at me.
    sadlmakr
    No shoe throwing here you bring up good points. I think in any sport where the visual beauty is judge along side requirements that are out lined in ruled provided by a governing body the sport will be subject to "fads". This happened in the quarter horse world with the peanut rollers for a while that was what was getting the scores, then it was not. In halter a few years ago you would see Quarter horses that looked like they were on steroids with little tiny feet, that seems to be changing now. It happens in things like figure skating, Snowboarding, Skateboarding, Etc. Right now in our sport flash seems to be important at the international competing arena. And lets face it even some of our amateur really nice warmbloods are not going to flash as much as Totalias or Salarnio and who knows if our amateur or local level professionals horses could stand up to that level of training.

    Some of the shows I last attended had horses way behind the perpendicular. Over bent and a bad looking picture of a death grip on the reins.
    This may not be from rollkur this could just be the best riding of that day. As shows get smaller you will be surprised at what is getting first place. In dressage it is not the ribbon it's the points if there are only three people in a class and the best rider is a 40 percenter than guess who gets the blue. Also you have to remember that the score is based of many movements depending on the test. Then you have the horse and rider coefficients. So again the rider could have been marked down for the horse being over bent and behind the bit , but they could have done other things really well.
    Life's a banquet and most poor suckers are starving to death.
    -Auntie Mame



  2. #322
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    wow. I confess I haven't read everything on this thread because it does not really apply to my riding and training but I just wanted to point out that a few years ago people were crucified on some of the discussion boards and especially the UDBB for riding even a little bit deep in a warmup.

    It was considered OMG sacriligious and a criminal act if a horse's nose ever strayed from the vertical ( downwards, not upwards because stargazing with back down was considered fine, up and open and klassikal doncha know)

    So now it appears that many people and the FEI are a little more understanding of how gymnastic training works and that keeping the horse in any one frame is counterproductive to suppleness and balance.

    But still we see the finger pointing and name calling.

    Look, no one is making you ride your horse too deep or abusively or whatever you think is happening out there in the Big Leagues just like no one is making you step on other people's heads to get to the top iin your real life job.

    The conspiracy theories are awfully silly because they can't affect you AT ALL unless you want them to.

    Except for mbm and pals who are obviously goin to the lympix.



  3. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beasmom View Post
    .

    So, Fixerupper, it sounds like tetanic contractions are perfectly normal? I think Spirithorse just likes to spew the term.He thinks it makes him sound speshul.
    Not Fixerupper, but no. Nothing normal about tetanic contractions. What is questionable is whether the rollkur position could cause them. What is more questionable is that any of the horses in question have exhibited them. What probably is more questionable yet is spirithorse's having witnessed an international rollkured horse in tetanic contraction.



  4. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by alicen View Post
    Not Fixerupper, but no. Nothing normal about tetanic contractions.
    Hey I didn't make that up Alicen!
    ...you posted a link....I followed it to a link on that very page... which (as I pointed out) happens to be a physiology text book by a respected author which explains a part of the physiology of muscle contraction. Don't point me in a direction and then tell me I'm going the wrong way

    I think you (and possibly spirithorse) are confusing it with tetany (caused by calcium deficiency or impaired calcium metabolism) or tetanus (caused by a clostridium bacteria) - diseases unrelated to muscle fatigue, I might add.


    Quote Originally Posted by alicen View Post
    What is questionable is whether the rollkur position could cause them. What is more questionable is that any of the horses in question have exhibited them. What probably is more questionable yet is spirithorse's having witnessed an international rollkured horse in tetanic contraction.
    this, on the other hand, is insightful and well put....
    * <-- RR Certified Gold Star {) <-- RR Golden Croissant Award
    Training Tip of the Day: If you can’t beat your best competitor, buy his horse.
    NO! What was the question?



  5. #325
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    Fixerupper, I think we're mis-communicating on the first part of my post. Sorry, if I wasn't clear. I appreciated your chemically based post and fully understand the difference between between tetanus and tetanic contractions although the later can be a symptom of the former.


    Holy moly! spirithorse is all over the web about tetanic contractions. There are oodles of folks just willy nilly tossing this term around. Perhaps they are confused with the equine parasites who do indeed experience chemically induced tetanic contractions:
    "Praziquantel is a synthetic isoquinoline-pyrazine derivative with activity against several trematode and cestode parasites. In vitro and in vivo studies indicate that trematodes and cestodes rapidly take up praziquantel and that its effect on calcium cation flux across membranes result in tetanic contraction of the parasites’ musculature and vacuolization of the tegument. The net effect is that the parasite becomes paralyzed and detaches from the host. The wide margin of safety of praziquantel is attributable to its rapid metabolism and excretion, as well as its selective effect on susceptible parasites."



  6. #326

    Exclamation definitions

    Fixerupper and others:
    Get a grip on reality....
    the word tetanic does not just apply to the tetanus virus......nor to any parasite...

    tetanic contraction sustained muscular contraction without intervals of relaxation

    These are recognized and standardized meanings in medical fields including equine..........

    hyperflexion (hy-per-flek-shon) n. excessive and forceful flexion of a limb or other part.

    "hyperflexion." A Dictionary of Nursing. 2008. Retrieved April 23, 2010 from Encyclopedia.com: http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O62-hyperflexion.html
    [FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]American Psychological Association
    http://apastyle.apa.org
     
    [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]spasm, muscle,
    n the increased muscular tension and shortness that cannot be released voluntarily and prevents lengthening of the muscles involved. Caused by pain stimuli to the lower motor neurons.
    Mosby's Dental Dictionary, 2nd edition. © 2008 Elsevier, Inc. All rights reserved.
    contraction a
    drawing together; a shortening or shrinkage.

    tetanic contraction sustained muscular contraction without intervals of relaxation. When tetanized, the contracting tension in the muscle remains constant in a steady state. This is the maximal contraction.
    Dorland's Medical Dictionary for Health Consumers. © 2007 by Saunders, an imprint of Elsevier, Inc. All rights reserved.

    hypersensitization
    n the process of rendering abnormally sensitive or the condition of being abnormally sensitive.
    Mosby's Dental Dictionary, 2nd edition. © 2008 Elsevier, Inc. All rights reserved.
    [FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2] 
    [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][SIZE=2] 
    [/SIZE]
    www.hartetoharte.org
    Ask and allow, do not demand and force.



  7. #327
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    oh I like this game - it's kind of like scrabble isn't it?

    tetanic contraction does not mean the same thing as muscle spasm....

    your turn
    * <-- RR Certified Gold Star {) <-- RR Golden Croissant Award
    Training Tip of the Day: If you can’t beat your best competitor, buy his horse.
    NO! What was the question?



  8. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by alicen View Post
    Apparently, your friend google is deceiving you. http://www.google.com/#hl=en&rlz=1W1...6db9ec799471bf
    Nope - I went for the whole phrase SH said to ask about.

    External induced tetanic contraction

    As for it all - I have absolutely no idea if ldr/rk/hyperflexion is harmful in general. I know my horse who used to voluntarily curl his neck up when I got him had soreness in his neck where he overbent it, which related to his carriage and soreness elsewhere. No one was forcing him to do that, but he was holding tension in and that caused the soreness. Which to me more indicates the "don't keep your horse in one position" and "keep your horse relaxed" are correct, rather than "RK is evil" - even if RK isn't something I particularly like. I think extreme arguments on either side tend to miss out on the individuality of horses and riders and what works for different individuals in different situations.
    My horse is a dressage diva so I don't have to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by katarine
    If you have a fat gay horse that likes Parelli, you're really screwed



  9. #329

    Default Scientific evidence

    No control group is necessary. I have knowledge of the required equipment that will produce scientific evidence in any arena, right before the eyes of an audience, riders, owners and Veterinarians.
    The scientific evidence will be actual data gathered regarding stress pressures, impact forces, thermography and gait analysis of the ridden horse in a controled trot gait, over a controlled surface, for a controlled distance. First pass is done at the rider's discretion, the second pass is done after changes are made to the rider's aids. A third pass can be done with equipment change.

    Before the horse is allowed to participate it is palpated in the required locations so that after the final pass a subsequent palpation can be done.

    I have been doing myotherapy for over twenty years and the amount of horses is probably nearly a thousand.

    Rolkur/ldr is not a dressage and/or English way of schooling it is also very predominate in the western way of schooling.

    The observer of western classes can easily see the results because the horses cannot move forward off the hindquarter, they are heavy on the forehand, the forehand strides are short, then hindquarter strides are short, the back is hollow, and the horses cannot carry their in the "natural" position as required by the rules which state the poll shall be no lower than the withers.

    If a horse is actually using a fully engaged hindquarter, the hind shoes will display 'heavy' wear....the hind hoof will land at or usually in front of the front hoof placement.

    [quote=ginger708;5065027]Spirithorse out of curiosity how many horses did you study that were ridden using rollkur for longer than 10 minutes in regular schooling warm ups schooled the regular 5 to 6 days a week for an hour to two hour period each day? And how was the control group of horses schooled for the same period of time? Also how many years did the study take place?quote]
    www.hartetoharte.org
    Ask and allow, do not demand and force.



  10. #330

    Default Fixerupper your balloon needs more hot air

    A TETANIC CONTRACTION IS WHERE THE MUSCLE IS NOT ALLOWED TO RETURN TO NORMAL.........
    DAH!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fixerupper View Post
    oh I like this game - it's kind of like scrabble isn't it?

    tetanic contraction does not mean the same thing as muscle spasm....

    your turn
    www.hartetoharte.org
    Ask and allow, do not demand and force.



  11. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirithorse View Post
    A TETANIC CONTRACTION IS WHERE THE MUSCLE IS NOT ALLOWED TO RETURN TO NORMAL.........
    DAH!!!!
    Correct, but it is caused by a bio-chemical pathology of the efferent nerve impulses, not the muscles. The contraction is the symptom not the cause.
    Last edited by alicen; Aug. 31, 2010 at 06:05 PM. Reason: sp



  12. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by netg View Post
    Nope - I went for the whole phrase SH said to ask about.
    Ahhhh, so!



  13. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by egontoast View Post
    But still we see the finger pointing and name calling....

    Except for mbm and pals who are obviously goin to the lympix.
    Yes Ms. Kettle



  14. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirithorse View Post
    A TETANIC CONTRACTION IS WHERE THE MUSCLE IS NOT ALLOWED TO RETURN TO NORMAL.........
    DAH!!!!
    no...I think the word you are looking for is contracture....you can look it up in Dorlands as I notice you are a fan.
    * <-- RR Certified Gold Star {) <-- RR Golden Croissant Award
    Training Tip of the Day: If you can’t beat your best competitor, buy his horse.
    NO! What was the question?



  15. #335
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    No control group is necessary. I have knowledge of the required equipment that will produce scientific evidence in any arena, right before the eyes of an audience, riders, owners and Veterinarians.
    If you do not have a control group how can you prove with out a doubt that the equipment is giving you evidence of the damage that LDR or Rollkur is causing and not just an athletic in regular work? Horses in regular training can get sore even though you are training in the most humane way possible. Soreness can come from many places how can you just distinguish just one cause with this equipment?

    The scientific evidence will be actual data gathered regarding stress pressures, impact forces, thermography and gait analysis of the ridden horse in a controled trot gait, over a controlled surface, for a controlled distance. First pass is done at the rider's discretion, the second pass is done after changes are made to the rider's aids. A third pass can be done with equipment change.
    One again how can you prove long term damage and where it came from with just one day's worth data in a controlled environment? International horses travel all over the world are ridden on many different surfaces, the stress of travel and work could be enough to cause pain or muscle soreness. This is where all of the of the arguments against Rollkur fall apart. With out being able to prove that the damage done comes directly from rollkur and not other extenuating circumstances? It is going to be very hard to prove to open minded people that there is a problem with this training.

    I guess that now would be a good time to say that I do not use Rollkur or LDR for that matter and I don't know if there would ever be a situation where I would. It's just not my cup of tea. Really there is just as much evidence that this is a successful method as there is that this method is breaking horse down. However, I am a fan of good solid research and testing of theroy's. And even though it could be argued that Anky's horses could move just as nicely with or with out rollkur unfortunately Anky's show scores are more black and white than all of the rhetoric that is so far unproven from the anti rollkur crowd.

    Before the horse is allowed to participate it is palpated in the required locations so that after the final pass a subsequent palpation can be done.
    I assuming you would be using a typical lameness exam? or are there special palpitations that would be just for this study? If you using non traditional are they medically approved?

    I have been doing myotherapy for over twenty years and the amount of horses is probably nearly a thousand.
    The thing is that unless you have been collecting data that can be verified by an unbiased source then the number doesn't really matter.

    Rolkur/ldr is not a dressage and/or English way of schooling it is also very predominate in the western way of schooling.

    The observer of western classes can easily see the results because the horses cannot move forward off the hindquarter, they are heavy on the forehand, the forehand strides are short, then hindquarter strides are short, the back is hollow, and the horses cannot carry their in the "natural" position as required by the rules which state the poll shall be no lower than the withers.
    Could it also be argued that quarter horse are traditionally breed to be down hill with more slop to their hind. That is why quarter horses are considered to be a non-traditional breed for a dressage horse. Also most western disciplines you are not training for the horse to put it's weight on it hind. When I was a kid riding barrels we just wanted to go fast and we wanted them to lean in to the barrel for a tighter turn. However I do not remember seeing what you describe above in western classes that I have seen. And the two reiners that were at the barn that I worked at last year move very nicely it was not dressage but it was not static and hallow either.

    If a horse is actually using a fully engaged hindquarter, the hind shoes will display 'heavy' wear....the hind hoof will land at or usually in front of the front hoof placement.
    That may be true but it is also true that the traveling show horse will also show a lot of wear on shoes and hoofs. All of the horses that I have ridden may have started the show season barefoot but ended it in shoes. I don't think that hoof wear alone can be an indicator of proper or improper riding.
    Life's a banquet and most poor suckers are starving to death.
    -Auntie Mame



  16. #336
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    i wonder what the world would be like if everyone just shut up and minded their own business no matter what was going on...... my guess is we would not be here today since the human race would of probably gone a totally different direction if those in charge were allowed to do what they want with no worry about repercussions.

    i know there are some that think that would be a really awesome world... but not me and i actually shudder to think there are those that think that is a good way to go thru life.

    everyone has the right to voice their opinion and fight for whatever they believe in. the key is to have something you believe in enough to fight for.



  17. #337
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    i wonder what the world would be like if everyone just shut up and minded their own business no matter what was going on...... my guess is we would not be here today since the human race would of probably gone a totally different direction if those in charge were allowed to do what they want with no worry about repercussions.
    What in particular is Anky in charge of that has any bearing on you or the human race? Are you comparing the sport of dressage to say the human rights movement? If so I think that you are doing your cause more harm than good to your cause.

    i know there are some that think that would be a really awesome world... but not me and i actually shudder to think there are those that think that is a good way to go thru life.
    I will not put words into the mouth of other posters but don't you think it is a little far fetched that just because someone is not ready to running blindly in to a direction that you are, that they are blind to the horrors of the world around them? And should a riding technique be put in such a category? And how are people ignoring a problem if the are asking to prove that rollkur is a problem. Just because something is not pleasing to your eye does not make it wrong.

    everyone has the right to voice their opinion and fight for whatever they believe in. the key is to have something you believe in enough to fight for.
    I choose to fight for a lot of things and one of them is proof before the witch hunt. You know the Salem witch trials was a horrible tragedy that could of been prevented if people worked more from fact and less from emotions and jealousy.
    Last edited by ginger708; Aug. 31, 2010 at 09:42 PM. Reason: wanted to give credit where credit is due
    Life's a banquet and most poor suckers are starving to death.
    -Auntie Mame



  18. #338
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    I'm generally staying out of these kinds of discussions, but every time one of them starts up the same little question keeps intruding into my head.

    Hypothetically, WHAT IF...

    RK or its equivalent had been developed right here in the good old U.S. of A. and we were winning gazillions of world championships and Olympic medals with it and beating the socks off of the European riders--would we be having this conversation??

    If RK or its equivalent had been developed by some little podunk country that nobody ever heard of, would we be having this conversation?

    If RK or its equivalent had been developed by (name your country), but it didn't really work, would we be having this conversation?

    Or is it because on some levels it seems to work that we are having this conversation??
    Last edited by betonbill; Aug. 31, 2010 at 08:58 PM. Reason: spelling



  19. #339
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    Ginger708 - you make way too much sense for the average poster on this thread.

    I'm with you 100%!!!!
    Siegi Belz
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  20. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    i wonder what the world would be like if everyone just shut up and minded their own business no matter what was going on...... my guess is we would not be here today since the human race would of probably gone a totally different direction if those in charge were allowed to do what they want with no worry about repercussions.

    i know there are some that think that would be a really awesome world... but not me and i actually shudder to think there are those that think that is a good way to go thru life.

    everyone has the right to voice their opinion and fight for whatever they believe in. the key is to have something you believe in enough to fight for.
    I agree, I think it is good to fight for what you believe in but I also think that some who push for their position do so for some personal gain, not the big picture.

    I would like to see the credentials of people who are critical of vets, MDs, etc. to validate their arguement. It is hard to support someone who lacks credentials or is not willing to show their credentials in the area they are fighting for.

    Case is point is this debate about tetanic contractions. Just because someone says they have 20+ years of experience in myotherapy does not mean they have been officially trained and licensed in that area. Where is the credential? Even massage therapists have credentials like CMT. Most states require a person to be licensed with the state to practice any type of body work on human or animal. Is this the case here? You can look up a persons licensure with the state. Just go to the states goverment site and usually it is under verify license.



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