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  1. #41
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    LOL then she needs to get get better pics in her books I LOVE clicker training! And I am sick to death of having dressage people point out how badly the horses are going in the pics, and saying things like "And if these are the best moments caught on film...."

    I read part of the book where it taught the horse to 'assume the position'. And most of the horses look very posed, with bases of neck lowered and not through/little impulsion.

    So if you know her tell her she could do even more for clicker training and horses to get some great pics!!!!



  2. #42
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    Ummm... can I just send her to you for all of the above? Thats would be awesome!


    I would need both of you to come up. We have an indoor but it's cold in Dec in PA

    but if you wanna, the offer is here!



  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by threedogpack View Post
    The hoof care provider isn’t the one training. S/he is the one trimming. I am the one marking and and rewarding the behavior. It does not matter to me, if my hoof care provider agrees with their use or not. This is .my. horse and .my. training method. S/he is not welcome to tell me how to train my horse.
    While an additional person works around your horse they shouldn't have to be training it but, the horse is still going to be learning something from anyone who is around it.

    As far what you expect and do, no problem. It isn't what everyone expects or does though.

    No one likes being told how to do anything if they felt everything was just fine (IOW's they weren't looking for any advice).

    As a Trimmer I have had folks ask me to adhere to THEIR methods. It's no problem until I run into a method I am unfamiliar with and don't have the time to stand there and wait to be fully trained in the method. I know how to handle horses because it is a very important part of hoof trimming. So in order to get the job done and continue with the rest of my day, I may have to just do that and without the owner's method of choice. It isn't as though the horse and I are at odds, just the owner if they think I've got to do things THEIR way or no way at all. Horses can tell the differences between methods even if people can't. They're smart that way. As long as a person is communicating in a way they understand, they don't care what method which method is being used.

    Clicker training clients: 1
    NH clients: the majority
    Methods of force: 1

    Tree



  4. #44
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    Mar. 10, 2003
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    If anyone is interested there are a couple of Clicker Training your Horse ONLINE courses starting up after Christmas with Leslie Pavlich, author of "Clicker Training: Starting the Natural Colt" that are extremely affordable and immensly helpful!! Leslie is an awesome teacher ... very step-by-step with videos to help the visualization. Ask for a "stocking stuffer" or treat yourself to a Christmas Present ... registration to one of her courses! www.horsecourses.net
    --Gwen <><
    "Treat others as you want to be treated and be the change you want to see in the world."
    http://www.thepenzancehorse.com



  5. #45
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    Tree said: As long as a person is communicating in a way they understand, they don't care what method which method is being used.

    But *I* do care what methods are used. I do not expect, nor do I want my farrier to train my horse. My farrier is welcome to tell me how they wish my horse to behave and it is *my* job to get the horse to behave that way, not theirs. If my farrier has a problem with that, s/he may speak to me about it and then I will decide if I should put my farrier dollars in their pocket or another. Just as a farrier has the right to refuse clients who do not meet their requirements, I have the same right.



  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manes and Tails View Post
    Ever hear of variable schedule reinforcement?

    Giving a treat randomly can be every bit as effective as giving a treat *every* time. The horse will work in the *hope* of getting one.

    If you're in a situation where rewarding every time is undesirable, then making it random can work very well.
    That's being a LIAR to your horse. Would you work your guts out every week after you noticed your paycheck was shorted a few hours here and there? Would the HOPE of getting paid for every day keep you going?

    In any event, using food as a reward is inherently (and IMO, fatally) flawed by the simple fact that the horse's appetite of the moment (ie, how much he appreciates the "reward") is not going to be consistent. Thus he's going to be often over-rewarded for minor accomplishments when he really REALLY wants the goodie -- and, far worse, in moments of disinterest (doesn't really care for goodie right now), will be vastly under-rewarded for major accomplishments.

    And worst of all, it gives the horse a built-in loophole: He has license to decide that he doesn't really want the goodie badly enough to to comply with your wishes. In effect, the horse has permission to say FU, and there's not a whole lot you can do about it.



  7. #47
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    With all due respect greysandbays, clicker training has a long history of being extremely useful in the training of animals. It was made very popular with the training of dolphins, and it's proven equally useful in training other animals.

    You may not want to use clickertraining and that's certainly up to you. But you shouldn't be telling others that it will never work. There are so many studies of animals trained with the clicker and variable reinforcement that the idea that it doesn't work is simply not tenable.

    BTW on Youtube (where else?) there's a video on clicker training a horse to take the worming syringe quietly (it's a horse that has already been trained to touch). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaEHXjmyF8A
    Last edited by Posting Trot; Dec. 6, 2008 at 04:46 PM. Reason: Add info on video
    "The formula 'Two and two make five' is not without its attractions." --Dostoevsky



  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by threedogpack View Post
    But *I* do care what methods are used. I do not expect, nor do I want my farrier to train my horse. My farrier is welcome to tell me how they wish my horse to behave and it is *my* job to get the horse to behave that way, not theirs. If my farrier has a problem with that, s/he may speak to me about it and then I will decide if I should put my farrier dollars in their pocket or another. Just as a farrier has the right to refuse clients who do not meet their requirements, I have the same right.
    That's great!

    I'm sure it's a pleasure for your Farrier to work on your horse's feet.

    Tree



  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by greysandbays View Post
    That's being a LIAR to your horse. Would you work your guts out every week after you noticed your paycheck was shorted a few hours here and there? Would the HOPE of getting paid for every day keep you going?

    In any event, using food as a reward is inherently (and IMO, fatally) flawed by the simple fact that the horse's appetite of the moment (ie, how much he appreciates the "reward") is not going to be consistent. Thus he's going to be often over-rewarded for minor accomplishments when he really REALLY wants the goodie -- and, far worse, in moments of disinterest (doesn't really care for goodie right now), will be vastly under-rewarded for major accomplishments.

    And worst of all, it gives the horse a built-in loophole: He has license to decide that he doesn't really want the goodie badly enough to to comply with your wishes. In effect, the horse has permission to say FU, and there's not a whole lot you can do about it.
    No thats not true.. and thats not how it works. I train and compete to high levels in obedience and agility with dogs. Trust me, they don't only work when they are hungry. Horses are grazers and will are always a little hungry, so a few treats is not going to be more/or less effective.

    And the last part is why clicker training is soo effective. It puts part of the onus on the animal. It makes horses (and dogs) MUCH keener to work. Because it encourages the offering of behaviours, it creates an animal that puts more into its responses.

    AND no one says that once you have taught your animal what you want, then you can't reprimand for non compliance if it does show up. If I am 110% sure my dog/horse knows what I want, that there is no pain and that I asked in a consistent manner, then I will reprimand. But strangely that happens less and less.



  10. #50
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    Feb. 17, 2004
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    NY
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    Quote Originally Posted by greysandbays View Post
    That's being a LIAR to your horse. Would you work your guts out every week after you noticed your paycheck was shorted a few hours here and there? Would the HOPE of getting paid for every day keep you going?
    Wow that is not how it works at all.

    Variable Reinforcement Schedule is a way to improve on and perfect the behavior you are looking for. If you are teaching Spanish Walk, you would first get the behavior of lifting the feet (I'm summarizing here). Once you have feet lifting, well you don't just want it an inch off the ground, you want the leg to lift to shoulder height. So horse now knows you want an inch and does it every time you ask, well you ask and the horse lifts an inch. You don't click, horse might be confused, but will try again and in the next 2 or 3 attempts will lift the foot two inches, Click/Treat. As a simple description, this is VRS. Go to www.clickertraining.com to find detailed explanations, if you care to do so

    In any event, using food as a reward is inherently (and IMO, fatally) flawed by the simple fact that the horse's appetite of the moment (ie, how much he appreciates the "reward") is not going to be consistent. Thus he's going to be often over-rewarded for minor accomplishments when he really REALLY wants the goodie -- and, far worse, in moments of disinterest (doesn't really care for goodie right now), will be vastly under-rewarded for major accomplishments.
    My horses all will work as hard as they can, each and every time for 3 - 5 hay stretchers. They get Jackpots throughout the session, usually these will be Peppermints or carrot pieces or apple pieces.

    Some training sessions last 15 minutes, some last over an hour. But whenever with your horse there are opportunities to train. I always have my training vest on or a jacket with pockets. What is the hangup with food rewards. I have absolutely NO PROBLEM, keeping treats on me at all times when interacting with my animals. Dogs, Cats, Horses, no biggie.


    And worst of all, it gives the horse a built-in loophole: He has license to decide that he doesn't really want the goodie badly enough to to comply with your wishes. In effect, the horse has permission to say FU, and there's not a whole lot you can do about it.

    If my horse wants to tell me to F++k off, he is entitled to his opinion. I have yet to have that happen during a training session so not sure why you think is so. Do your horses tell you to FU ??

    My training sessions are very focused, I'm working on particular behaviors and I go at a speed that allows my horses to want to work with me. If they don't usually something else is wrong. I have had my Morgan not working with me very well, that was when I discovered he had a fever, wouldn't have known it, except he didn't want to "play"

    I love what Clicker Training does for me, my animals and those around me

    Regards,



  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tree View Post
    That's great!

    I'm sure it's a pleasure for your Farrier to work on your horse's feet.

    Tree
    I'll assume this is not sarcasm.

    He keeps coming back so it must be, cuz honestly? I wouldn't be a farrier for what he makes and have told him so. I've told him (and rewarded him with a tip every time he trims/shoes) that I appreciate him a lot.



  12. #52
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    greysandbays said: In effect, the horse has permission to say FU, and there's not a whole lot you can do about it.


    any training subject can always make the decision to say FU. It happens all the time when horses make choices that conflict with their riders, no matter the training method. My horses have said it to me, far more before clicker training than after though. Go back and read my posts about my mare. She was willing to hurt herself when I got her and that isn't the case now.

    How many posts here have dealt with horses that have made rearing or bolting or lashing out at a leg, heavy on the forehand or refusing to pick up a foot? There is a thread right now on Dressage about a horse that comes off the ground if you collect it. Shrug.

    Listen. If you don't like it, or don't want to try it don't...but far better trainers than I have used operant and classical conditioning to train far more difficult subjects to a far higher level of training than either you or I have. As so many before me have said, if it's good enough for Bob Bailey it's good enough for me.



  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by threedogpack View Post
    I'll assume this is not sarcasm.

    He keeps coming back so it must be, cuz honestly? I wouldn't be a farrier for what he makes and have told him so. I've told him (and rewarded him with a tip every time he trims/shoes) that I appreciate him a lot.
    and one more thing. If I were a vet and/or a farrier, I'd drop clients who put me in danger of being hurt because they either can't or won't train their horse. The job all by itself just because of it being what it is puts the service provider in a dangerous situation. I would absolutely not raise that level any higher by dealing with poorly mannered horses when I could make far more money with far less risk doing something else. I'd tell them they HAD to train the horse or find a different provider.



  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Posting Trot View Post
    With all due respect greysandbays, clicker training has a long history of being extremely useful in the training of animals. It was made very popular with the training of dolphins, and it's proven equally useful in training other animals.

    You may not want to use clickertraining and that's certainly up to you. But you shouldn't be telling others that it will never work. There are so many studies of animals trained with the clicker and variable reinforcement that the idea that it doesn't work is simply not tenable.

    BTW on Youtube (where else?) there's a video on clicker training a horse to take the worming syringe quietly (it's a horse that has already been trained to touch). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaEHXjmyF8A
    I'm not saying clicker training/bait-bag training will "never work". However, I've had several horses who are so unmotivated by food that it was a challenge to get them to eat their regular meals if the slightest little thing distracted them, never mind getting them to do tricks for treats; for them it certainly would "never work".

    I'm saying I think it's A) dishonest to the horse, and B) there no guarantee the reward will precisely suit the level of accomplishment. Just because horsess are capable of compensating for trainer dishonesty and skewed reward/accomplishment ratios is no excuse to be doing that to them.

    Robbing banks will get you money. So will working a legit job. Quite likely bank robbers don't think they are doing anything very much wrong, or at least don't mind that it's wrong as long as it's working for them. Just the same, it's not something I want to be doing.

    BTW, who the hell ever has trouble getting a horse to take the worming syringe quietly?



  15. #55
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    BTW, who the hell ever has trouble getting a horse to take the worming syringe quietly?


    the OP. Lots of horses hate things, this just happens to be her (?) bug-a-boo.



  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by greysandbays View Post
    I'm not saying clicker training/bait-bag training will "never work". However, I've had several horses who are so unmotivated by food that it was a challenge to get them to eat their regular meals if the slightest little thing distracted them, never mind getting them to do tricks for treats; for them it certainly would "never work".

    I'm saying I think it's A) dishonest to the horse, and B) there no guarantee the reward will precisely suit the level of accomplishment. Just because horsess are capable of compensating for trainer dishonesty and skewed reward/accomplishment ratios is no excuse to be doing that to them.

    Robbing banks will get you money. So will working a legit job. Quite likely bank robbers don't think they are doing anything very much wrong, or at least don't mind that it's wrong as long as it's working for them. Just the same, it's not something I want to be doing.

    BTW, who the hell ever has trouble getting a horse to take the worming syringe quietly?
    So how do you reward so it precisely suits the level of accomplishment? I don't think that has been an issue in any species yet so far.. but I would love some suggestions as how you overcome this problem?



  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by threedogpack View Post
    I'll assume this is not sarcasm.

    He keeps coming back so it must be, cuz honestly? I wouldn't be a farrier for what he makes and have told him so. I've told him (and rewarded him with a tip every time he trims/shoes) that I appreciate him a lot.
    You're right, no sarcasm. I know how pleasant it is when working on the hooves of horses that owners have done well in training them. They are confident and self-assured.

    Tips are never expected and always welcomed. He must love what he does. I know that feeling.

    Tree



  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tree View Post
    You're right, no sarcasm. I know how pleasant it is when working on the hooves of horses that owners have done well in training them. They are confident and self-assured.

    Tips are never expected and always welcomed. He must love what he does. I know that feeling.

    Tree
    I don't know that he loves what he does...I suspect it depends on the day, the horses he has to work with but mostly the owners he has to deal with. I know with the dog training it was not the dogs that were the problem (even the problem dogs were not usually the problem).

    As hard as farriers work, as important as he is to me for how well he does his job/how timely he is/how hard he works, he has earned every single penny of every tip I've given him. He also has said I don't have to do that, and I have replied "neither do you."



  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by threedogpack View Post
    and one more thing. If I were a vet and/or a farrier, I'd drop clients who put me in danger of being hurt because they either can't or won't train their horse. The job all by itself just because of it being what it is puts the service provider in a dangerous situation. I would absolutely not raise that level any higher by dealing with poorly mannered horses when I could make far more money with far less risk doing something else. I'd tell them they HAD to train the horse or find a different provider.
    There are owners who get nervous when the Vet or hoof care provider (Trimmer or Farrier), are coming and this sets their horse up to behave badly which just feeds right in to what the owner was worried about. Recognizing this can be of help to the professional who is expected to do something for the horse. It can be as simple as just taking the horse from the owner and allowing it to settle, particularly if the professional is calm and assertive. Horses sense this and it helps them which in turn can help settle the owner...once they see their horse behaving better. So it's like a cycle that is heading into the wrong direction then being turned around towards the better. When this happens, the risk of danger is reduced if not removed.

    If the horse has no chance of finding the quiet in the "storm", then a professional should walk away or risk getting hurt or getting the horse hurt. Particularly if the owner isn't willing to let them help...if their help would be of any use. There are some professionals who would just fan the flames and make things worse. They need to walk away anyway!

    Some people just need help and if I can, I will. Their horses are usually fine already but are just being influenced by the owners.

    Tree



  20. #60
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    As a Trimmer I have had folks ask me to adhere to THEIR methods. It's no problem until I run into a method I am unfamiliar with and don't have the time to stand there and wait to be fully trained in the method.
    Charge more if it takes longer than the average time to trim a horse, so the owner understands that your time is money too. I will charge by the hour for horses who can't stand still, starting with next year. The only exception will be horses with physical problems who can't help it



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