mare won't let me pick out hoof [Archive]

hitchinmygetalong

Nov. 9, 2004, 03:43 AM

The opposite foot/leg might be painful.

She may have problems flexing the hock of the foot you are trying to pick up.

She may have balance problems.

While you are waiting for the farrier to arrive, work on desensitizing her to being worked with on that quarter of her body. Every time you groom her, spend the majority of your time currying and brushing that hip and gaskin, watching her carefully the entire time. VERY CAREFULLY run your hand down her leg until she just barely thinks about reacting, then stop. Move to another part of her, then after she has relaxed come back to the "bad" side. Again, run your hand down her leg but don't push it to the reaction point. Repeat that a number of times until she seems very unconcerned with you being near that leg. The next day, do it all over again only this time see if her "reaction point" has moved farther down her leg.

If she doesn't have any problems with you brushing her entire leg, then I would GUESS (I'm certainly no expert) that the problem might be pain or balance. Give the farrier fair warning and let him see how he makes out with her. If he has no luck then it is time to call the vet to have the leg evaluated.

Good luck!

Oh, and make sure your HEAD is the part of you farthest from her foot when you are working with her. Keep your body angled away from her when you are trying to pick that foot up so if she kicks, she'll get you in the leg/butt, not the brainpan. And keep your legs spread so she will have less of a chance of knocking you over.

Tom Stovall CJF

Nov. 9, 2004, 04:43 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by myhorse:
I just brought a mare to our farm on Sunday for weaning. Her feet have not been done since the owner purchased her in March(this is not my mare,nor do I approve of it). I was picking out her feet and when I came to fourth foot....right hind she swung her butt to me and slammed her hoof down on my foot, which I think my be fractured. Anyways, I was wondering if she did this because of pain related issues in her hooves or maybe her leg was just hitting her full sore udder. She would not let me get near that hoof again and I don't want to stress her. I am planning on having my farrier out next Mon. to do her feet. Does anyone have any ideas to make her comfortable so I can keep her feet clean? Maybe a reason for the reaction? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Does the term, "ill-broke puke" mean anything to you? Doubtless, this assessment will cause enough wailing to do a squadron of Sicilian widows proud, and a whole litany of "dog ate my homework" excuses for the mare's behavior, but in all likelihood, the mare is simply not broke to having her feet handled. Spare me the usual nonsense about her being in pain, her abusive former connections, or her inner child - she's just another puke that has formed the habit of dominating humans. There is one immutable law in dealing with horses: Either you dominate the horse or the horse dominates you. This mare is dominating you.

As an aside, please be aware that it's NOT your farrier's job to break this mare to having her feet handled, that task belongs to whoever wants her feet trimmed.

hitchinmygetalong

Nov. 9, 2004, 05:06 AM

Tom, why would she allow three out of four feet to be handled?

And yes, I wholeheartedly agree that it is not the farrier's job to break a horse to stand politely. But there are times when a horse gets an owner's or handler's number and intimidates them. A new, confident person can change things around.

Paddys Mom

Nov. 9, 2004, 09:01 AM

Sorry about your foot!

My old guy has bad hocks. I can tell when he is having a bad day because he can't hold himself up very well when I pick his back feet. He will almost fall down. Any easy test for this is to give her some Bute. Paddy is much better with a little Bute.

If she is still bad, could she be unsure of her footing (are you on concrete?)?

If not, good luck!

classicsporthorses

Nov. 9, 2004, 11:07 AM

Boy this I can relate to. I think it could be a combination of things. We have one mare who to this day we have to slightly sedate to do her feet. We have had her goin gon three years. When I first got her you could not even pick up one foot. Through consistent training she has come a long way! She knows I am the dominate one.

She will let the farrier pick up her feet and pick them out but as soon as she sees the equipment all hell breaks loose. We have tried everything-from cross ties, chain over the nose, twitched, "Be-Nice" halter.... over the course of time and it was getting down right dangerous for all of us. As a last resort we went to sedation. The first time she just sucked that sedation right up but we got the feet done. The last time it was just a small cocktail.

Tom if you want to come try to trim this mare without sedation please have at it. In all other areas of her life she is very well behaved it is just some issue with trimming.

The other mare did have medical issues (had joint mice (bone fragments) in her pastern from an old fracture. It was painful to pick up that hoof and flex the joint. This was a huge 14 year old WB mare we had in on breeding lease.

To trim her we had to prop her against a wall. If you just asked for that foot without support she would get nervous and the proceed to pick it up so high she would tip herself over-all 1500+ pounds of her!

It look a lot of time but we finally managed to teach her to relax and barely pick up the hoof to be trimmed. I have a great farrier who is patient and has pretty much seen it all.

My point being that there are horses out there that may be in pain or where the issues are huge, yes there are a lot of ill-behaved horses but please don't group them all together as pukes.

Tom Stovall CJF

Nov. 9, 2004, 01:26 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by classicsporthorses:
Boy this I can relate to. I think it could be a combination of things. We have one mare who to this day we have to slightly sedate to do her feet. We have had her goin gon three years. When I first got her you could not even pick up one foot. Through consistent training she has come a long way! She knows I am the dominate one.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Lemme see if I have this straight: A mare has been on your place for three years, you still can't pick all her feet up, and you think you're dominating her? You're kidding, right?
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
She will let the farrier pick up her feet and pick them out but as soon as she sees the equipment all hell breaks loose. We have tried everything-from cross ties, chain over the nose, twitched, "Be-Nice" halter.... over the course of time and it was getting down right dangerous for all of us. As a last resort we went to sedation. The first time she just sucked that sedation right up but we got the feet done. The last time it was just a small cocktail.

Tom if you want to come try to trim this mare without sedation please have at it. In all other areas of her life she is very well behaved it is just some issue with trimming.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
As anyone who knows me will gleefully attest, you can bet the farm that when I choose to trim a horse thought to have "issues" with their feet, I can get the job done without benefit of drugs or clergy. In this case, the mare would probably lose a little hide; I wouldn't.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
The other mare did have medical issues (had joint mice (bone fragments) in her pastern from an old fracture. It was painful to pick up that hoof and flex the joint. This was a huge 14 year old WB mare we had in on breeding lease.

To trim her we had to prop her against a wall. If you just asked for that foot without support she would get nervous and the proceed to pick it up so high she would tip herself over-all 1500+ pounds of her!

It look a lot of time but we finally managed to teach her to relax and barely pick up the hoof to be trimmed. I have a great farrier who is patient and has pretty much seen it all.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't doubt your farrier is a good hand, but did anyone in your camp ever think about tying the mare down when she does her "tip herself over" thing?

IME, when a horse willfully goes down, it seldom takes more than a single session of being tied down while somebody sits on their head and recites bad cowboy poetry to convince the beast that the habit that led her to go down is not worth keeping. Horses aren't made out of glass and it's often possible to replace a bad habit with a new habit one deems more desirable without waiting interminably or placing oneself in harm's way.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
My point being that there are horses out there that may be in pain or where the issues are huge, yes there are a lot of ill-behaved horses but please don't group them all together as pukes.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Broke is as broke does and "puke" is about the nicest and most accurate description one can use in polite society. I've heard most of the excuses for equine behaviors that are dangerous to humans and none of them - not a single one - is worth a bucket of warm spit. When some ill broke puke kicks, bites, or strikes, hematomas and fractures can be the price a farrier pays for an owner's ineptitude.

myhorse

Nov. 9, 2004, 01:30 PM

I omly know some about this mare. She was green broke then turned into a broodmare at the show barn she was raised. She was sold in March to my friend that says she has had no problem picking the mares feet but has not done so in the past month. She has only been here since Sunday. This morning when I went to take off her sheet she was fine until I got to that side and went to unhook the leg strap. When I reached down to get it she kicked out and started freaking. I got her to settle and got it unhooked. I am not intimidated by her at all. I do not however want to go straight to displine if not needed.I do not feel that it is right to get after a horse in pain. If after I bute her and she still reacts in such a way then I will take action.

I also never expect a farrier to fix or train any of my horses to stand for them. This is not my horse and I have only had her for a few days and will be working with her. Was just looking for answers before I go dishing out responses.

Critters Everywhere

Nov. 9, 2004, 01:34 PM

Tom, I gotta say you generally sound like you're a capable farrier but I'm glad you aren't mine! It was my farrier who originally found the problems in Zarah's right hind end when the rest of us were all thinking it was a training issue. She did similar things...was great for all three other feet but really fought on the right hind...would rear & bolt if you pushed it. Give her 2 bute tablets twice a day for 36 hours before the farrier comes & she's perfectly fine and will even doze while he works.

Some horses are spoiled, some have real physical problems. It is up to the whole team of owner, farrier, vet, & trainer to figure out which is which.

Tom Stovall CJF

Nov. 9, 2004, 02:16 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Critters Everywhere:
Tom, I gotta say you generally sound like you're a capable farrier but I'm glad you aren't mine!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Me too, I'd hate to think I'd lowered my standards and was reduced to working for civilians. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
It was my farrier who originally found the problems in Zarah's right hind end when the rest of us were all thinking it was a training issue. She did similar things...was great for all three other feet but really fought on the right hind...would rear & bolt if you pushed it...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Why'd it take a farrier to tell you something was wrong with your mare's hind? You should've known something wasn't kosher the first time you picked up her foot. Civilians!
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Give her 2 bute tablets twice a day for 36 hours before the farrier comes & she's perfectly fine and will even doze while he works.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
NSAIDs as a substitute for training? If you say so.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Some horses are spoiled, some have real physical problems. It is up to the whole team of owner, farrier, vet, & trainer to figure out which is which.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No ma'am. Farriers trim and shoe; owners are responsible for training; and a veterinarian is responsible for the diagnosis and treatment of pathologies. Any horse that has not formed the habit of having its feet handled without incident is the responsibility of the owner. There is NO excuse for an owner's attempting to shirk this responsibility - but farriers hear them every day.

Critters Everywhere

Nov. 9, 2004, 02:54 PM

Why it took the farrier to see it was in the hind end, not behavioral, was because the horse only gets ridden about twice a year though I have the farrier out every 6 weeks. At the time, the arthritis was just developing and was mostly manifesting as occasional back soreness (which we were treating). She was always fine for me picking up the foot to pick it out (which I do every day even though she's not ridden) but the angle the farrier had to hold it at to work put just enough extra torque on her joints that it was painful.

As for bute substituting for training, I hate to think that you would consider it prudent to teach a horse not to react to pain. Ever had a child? Ever had them sprain or break an ankle playing sports? Sure, they can be intimidated/bribed/blackmailed into continuing to play through the pain, but why in the hell would you possibly think it was better to force them to continue to put pressure on it rather than treating the problem? I think I now know why you seem to raise so many hackles on this board....

Oh, by the way, this mare has SERIOUS ground training on her...so much so that when she was in a trailer accident & I had to saw her halter off her while a piece of twisted metal was embedded into her jaw and had sliced an artery, she waited quietly and allowed me to lead her out the emergency door for humans (the rear was unusable & took a lot of welding to get open again), then stood with me holding pressure on the artery with one hand while I phoned the vet with the other. The farrier says she's one of the easiest horses he does AS LONG AS SHE'S ON BUTE. The fact that she relatively suddenly developed a serious aversion to having just one foot worked on and only in certain positions is NOT behavioral...it's physical.

MyArgie

Nov. 9, 2004, 04:06 PM

hm, from your description sounds like it could be either behavioral or physical. does she let you brush and handle her legs in general?

my mom's horse is just a horse she is uncomfy holding his hind legs up, no physical problems, just holding his legs in that way is not a comfotable stance for him (and not a natural one for more than a few seconds). but he certainly doesn't kick, he just wants to put his foot down.

with a horse who did this kicking behavior, i've seen people pick their feet "the track/polo way". you stay on one side and reach across, bring their leg up, back behind the one on the side you are, and clean it that way. maybe try that to pick up this foot and see what kind of a response you get. that way, if she kicks out, you will be safely on the other side. best of luck please keep us updated

myhorse

Nov. 9, 2004, 04:27 PM

Last night I gave her two grams of bute.To make her drying off period more comfortable. This evening I gave her a gram of bute. I picked out all her feet including the one she did not want me to touch yesterday. At first she did resist once then held it for me while I cleaned it out. Her feet are in bad shape. I am glad that i was able to pick it out. I also feel as though she is having pain somewhere.

I do have a ? regarding her front right foot. It is somewhat high healed and has a dish from the coronet to the ground that is about a 1/8 inch wide. Does anyone know what could be the cause of this? All of my horses have fairly good feet except my OTTB but even her problems are minor.

horsey nurse

Nov. 9, 2004, 04:29 PM

She might be abcessing in that foot or have a stone bruise. I once picked up a hind foot to pick it out and got the wind knocked out of me when the horse kicked out and caught me in the ribs.

Tom, I am with you, many times horses have behavioral issues and not pain issues when they don't like their feet done. Many people let their horses ride rough shod over them.

Tom Stovall CJF

Nov. 9, 2004, 05:15 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Critters Everywhere:
Why it took the farrier to see it was in the hind end, not behavioral, was because the horse only gets ridden about twice a year though I have the farrier out every 6 weeks. At the time, the arthritis was just developing and was mostly manifesting as occasional back soreness (which we were treating). She was always fine for me picking up the foot to pick it out (which I do every day even though she's not ridden) but the angle the farrier had to hold it at to work put just enough extra torque on her joints that it was painful.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't quite follow your reasoning: You could pick out the mare's feet but your farrier couldn't trim her? As a rule, farriers are more aware of horses' body language than civilians; furthermore, most farriers know that the closer to the ground and more neutral the position at which one holds a hind, the fewer problems one encounters.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
As for bute substituting for training, I hate to think that you would consider it prudent to teach a horse not to react to pain...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I find it prudent to address the cause of the pain, not to interfere with the transmission of nervous impulses by chemical means.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Ever had a child? Ever had them sprain or break an ankle playing sports? Sure, they can be intimidated/bribed/blackmailed into continuing to play through the pain, but why in the hell would you possibly think it was better to force them to continue to put pressure on it rather than treating the problem?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
One hates to interrupt a laughably illogical analogy, but horses are not children and your habit of loading your mare up with NSAIDs is not related to my child rearing.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
I think I now know why you seem to raise so many hackles on this board....
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't suffer fools all that well.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Oh, by the way, this mare has SERIOUS ground training on her...so much so that when she was in a trailer accident & I had to saw her halter off her while a piece of twisted metal was embedded into her jaw and had sliced an artery, she waited quietly and allowed me to lead her out the emergency door for humans (the rear was unusable & took a lot of welding to get open again), then stood with me holding pressure on the artery with one hand while I phoned the vet with the other.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No matter how much "serious" (as opposed to frivolous?) ground training you feel your mare has had, by your own admission, she's not broke to having her feet handled - and to a farrier, all else is extraneous.

Just to help you keep your story straight: When one has difficulty in opening a badly bent, metal-framed door, welding is seldom involved in the process - the usual weapon of choice is a cutting torch or an abrasive saw.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
The farrier says she's one of the easiest horses he does AS LONG AS SHE'S ON BUTE. The fact that she relatively suddenly developed a serious aversion to having just one foot worked on and only in certain positions is NOT behavioral... it's physical.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No ma'am, if it's a behavior, it's behavioral. All training has to do with the imposition of human will on horses and the formation of habits leading to behaviors humans find useful and desirable. Put another way, some folks are content to be able to pick up three feet; others want to pick up all four without chemical assistance.

Lin

Nov. 9, 2004, 08:01 PM

While I am inclined to naila horse severely when it does something that endangers me or other people, I do not understand dismissing physical causes for atypical behaviour. If an otherwise saintly horse seems in pain when feet are trimmed , and no matter how quick and careful the farrier is it still takes longer to trim than pick feet, what is wrong with giving a dose or two of bute, or devil's claw or your anti inflammatory of choice before the farrier comes? Many older creatures need a bit of help to be comfortable under certain circumstances.

Mariequi

Nov. 9, 2004, 09:31 PM

Yes, the mare I lost last Dec. after 27 years had the "worst stifles" my vet and the vet clinic had ever seen, said they. I kept her as comfortable as possible with mesotherapy and Adequan and Legend and little Bute. She was still round and eating and herself when THE decision was made. ANYWAY, my farrier said she was the best behaved of horses. He was so gentle with those rear legs, lifting them no higher than he had to. I cleaned them that way as well.

Six weeks ago, a TB/Paint yearling came to live with me. She'd been handled little and I was very wary about her feet. I started cleaning her front feet while she ate and she was fine. I still grooming her while eating - and other times - and she's very good. I have a 'frozen' left shoulder and am due for an MRI. It hurts greatly to pull back suddenly. I successfully picked her hind feet one day and felt I was on the right track. The next day I got near the rear foot and she picked up/kicked out and I put my hand on her side quickly because I was afraid she was coming in to me. I scared her and she ran to the back of the stall. I did a lot of cooing and called her to me and she didn't hesitate. I decided to wait for the farrier and he said he was glad I'd waited so she didn't have a bad experience. The week before he came I'd spent teaching her to soak and wrapping her for an abscess. I figure that was a great experience for us both as far as trust and handling. I bring up my old mare to point out I'm used to picking up hind feet very little and this baby picks them up HIGH and I have a hard time gracefully grabbing that foot and then she's unbalanced. I don't want to be the one to unbalance her.

Since I can't reinjure this shoulder any time soon (not horse related), she may not have her hind feet picked much until the farrier is back. No, I have no help.

classicsporthorses

Nov. 10, 2004, 08:39 AM

Just to clarify Tom, I CAN pick up my mare's feet pick them out, handle them and have been able to just a few months into getting her (nearly 3 years ago) and so can my farrier as well as my 10 year old daughter without her being tied, have a shank or twitched.

Obviously you did not read what I wrote through your anger and condescending attitude. Her issues are when the actual trimming begins. As I had said before, we have tried everything and maybe you believe in savagly beating a horse but I do not.

Don't get me wrong, corrrection is correction and we have done that a lot and I am not some lightweight-I handle weanlings through large breeding stallions and horses as large as 18.2 drafts. This was a mare that prior to us getting her was thrown out in a field with a lot of other horses and we were told beaten by previous owners. Lord only knows what the farrier did to her.

When we initially got her her manners were completely lacking-she reared, kicked out, bit etc. She does none of that now only when the actual trimming has to begin. After consultation with our vet, all three of us agreed that for this mare this was the safest thing to do. We don't drop her to the ground with sedation either.

But if I saw a farrier "lost some hide" on one of my horses as you said, that would be the last time that farrier not only was in my barn but I would make darned sure he did not work in a lot of barns!

As for the other mare, she was not throwing herself on the ground. It was a matter of balance and pain on her part, plain and simple. The isses was the joint mice, which when lodged in the joint at times was painful. It was not "puke" behavior. She would not "willfully" go down, far from it, b/c of her pastern it was difficult to stand on three legs. She was not trying to be difficult at all, my point was that we had to accommodate to her. I can only imagine what you do with horses with orthopedic issues, pregnant mares, geriatrics who just are not able to stand well.

The offer still stands, without the beating.

Tisha2

Nov. 10, 2004, 09:44 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall CJF:
I don't suffer fools all that well.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then why do you continue to type things which put you in the fool category?

Jasmine

Nov. 10, 2004, 09:53 AM

Wow. I'm glad my farrier is willing to work with me. My mare had a fit everytime you tried to touch her white foot. She had to be sedated for safety's sake (hers and the farrier) the first two times he trimmed her. He would make suggestions, and even spent extra time just getting her comfortable with HIM. After some remedial training, and lots of praise, she is an angel for the farrier. I really doubt she would have responded as well to a beating and being tied down with some fool sitting on her head. I'm pretty sure one of them wouldn't have survived. (probably the farrier, since I'd have shot him! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

breezymeadow

Nov. 10, 2004, 10:00 AM

Ah - another "Certified Journeyman Farrier" who knows everything.

The last time I used a CJF, he burned the living hell out of my mare's heel with a hot shoe. She went absolutely berserk from the pain, & I asked him to leave.

Had my vet out the next day & he was absolutely disgusted at what this moron had done to her. It took me MONTHS before she would even let me TOUCH that poor darn hoof.

I told the new farrier (not a "CJF" - what a shame!) what had happened, & he couldn't have been nicer. The first time he came, he did the other horses, & then just spent a little time giving the mare some treats, talking to her, & running his hands over her. Next time round, he did the same thing - but this time brought his tools in with him, laid them out & let her sniff them over. He also picked up her feet.

She was so comfortable with him after that, he was able to trim her with no problem.

Oh, & by the way - I didn't ASK him to do any of his. This was just his way of doing things.

And I also have an older gelding with arthritis behind who will pull away unless he has a little bute. The vet has been involved, & it IS a pain issue. Any farrier who would punish a horse for acting up out of pain simply shouldn't be working around animals, period.

LGW

Nov. 10, 2004, 10:19 AM

If Tom is speaking at the American Farrier Association Convention ... I am buying a ticket ..not for the lecture ... just for the entertainment. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

CuriosoJorge

Nov. 10, 2004, 10:28 AM

Exactly what are the qualifications that entitle one to call oneself a "Certified Journeyman Farrier"? Is it some kind of correspondance course?

breezymeadow

Nov. 10, 2004, 10:31 AM

I believe it's an award for how fast you can drive up, shoe everybody, collect your $$$, & get the hell off the farm. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

LGW

Nov. 10, 2004, 10:32 AM

CJ,
I thought Three Dice was a CJF. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

CuriosoJorge

Nov. 10, 2004, 10:37 AM

LOLOL I doubt it, although his firm does employ two doctors who have also been to farrier school! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

fernie fox

Nov. 10, 2004, 11:07 AM

Is he certified with The American Farriers Ass.

Or "the Brotherhood of Something or others? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

A. P.

Nov. 10, 2004, 11:22 AM

"As a rule, farriers are more aware of horses' body language than civilians"

That sure doesn't match with my experience, and I've known some damned good farriers. By and large, they just want to get the job done and get out of there, and really don't give a rat's a** as to why the animal is behaving the way it is or what is the best LONG TERM, HUMANE solution to solving the problem.

I find it intersting that the same farrier who says 'It's not the farriers job to train the horse' is so full of opinions in training!

HuntJumpSC

Nov. 10, 2004, 11:34 AM

Civilians? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif I dind't know being a CJF qualified someone as military... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Hahaha!

LGW

Nov. 10, 2004, 12:00 PM

Maybe the "C" in CJF really stands for Colonel? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

hitchinmygetalong

Nov. 10, 2004, 01:22 PM

Well Mr. Tom Stovall CJF, now that you have insulted and irritated some really decent folk with your nasty and condescending posts, might I make a suggestion?

Go underground for a few months. Maybe you could spend your time making some nice holiday ornaments out of horseshoe nails or something.

Then, you CHANGE YOUR USER NAME on COTH.

Then, read for a while before you open your mouth. We're not a bunch of idiots here.

We are, in general, very supportive people who sincerely want to help those who might have a little less expertise in certain areas. When my horse foundered last year, I listened to the vet, my farrier (who I trust totally), and the people on this board. They were wonderful and dispensed both good advice and just plain moral support.

I'd take them over a "Certified Journeyman Farrier" any day.

HeyYouNags

Nov. 10, 2004, 02:03 PM

Umm, can I just point out to you "civilians" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif that Bute and other NSAIDs do not interfere with nerve impulses? Don't want anyone to go away believing that.

And yes, please, do give Bute to your horses with pain issues prior to farrier work. My most excellent farrier (not sure about his official CJF status...) would give it two of his Scottish thumbs up. As would most vets I know.

And lastly, some horses that have a spasm/lift/pull away kind of response to picking up a hind leg may have "shivers" or EPSSM. It would be most prudent and humane not to beat them into submission http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif . Barely picking up the hind foot works better. I imagine a bit of Ace might also help, since it's a muscle cramping problem.

But don't mind me. I'm not a CJF. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

breezymeadow

Nov. 10, 2004, 02:22 PM

Leg-lifting height - that's another problem I had with both of my illustrious "CJF"'s.

Don't get me wrong - I am all for saving a farrier's back as much as humanly possible, but both of these guys would yank up & out at an angle that even had me saying "ouch", never mind the poor horse.

I don't know if it's the way they're trained in order to be "certified" or what, but none of the non-certified farriers I've used ever used such an extravagant "up & out" position.

Tom Stovall CJF

Nov. 10, 2004, 03:34 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by classicsporthorses:
Just to clarify Tom, I CAN pick up my mare's feet pick them out, handle them and have been able to just a few months into getting her (nearly 3 years ago) and so can my farrier as well as my 10 year old daughter without her being tied, have a shank or twitched.

Obviously you did not read what I wrote through your anger and condescending attitude. Her issues are when the actual trimming begins.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Obviously, you think your being able to pick up her feet is somehow related to her being broke to trim. Disabuse yourself from that thought: If you can do it and your farrier can't, either your mare is not broke to trim, or your farrier is taking her too high, too far back, or too wide and eliciting a pain response. If your farrier knows what he's doing, my money's on the former.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
As I had said before, we have tried everything and maybe you believe in savagly beating a horse but I do not.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You said that, not me. I'm too lazy to do much thumping on horses, when I wear my trainer hat, I try to make the easiest thing for the horse to do correspond with what I want done. Not too original, but it works.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Don't get me wrong, corrrection is correction and we have done that a lot and I am not some lightweight-I handle weanlings through large breeding stallions and horses as large as 18.2 drafts. This was a mare that prior to us getting her was thrown out in a field with a lot of other horses and we were told beaten by previous owners. Lord only knows what the farrier did to her.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I figured that sooner or later you'd throw in the obligatory civilian excuse for ineptitude, the ever popular "abusive former owners and mean 'ol farrier fantasy."
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
When we initially got her her manners were completely lacking-she reared, kicked out, bit etc. She does none of that now only when the actual trimming has to begin. After consultation with our vet, all three of us agreed that for this mare this was the safest thing to do. We don't drop her to the ground with sedation either.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Lots of civilians use drugs instead of training, that's one of the ways they maintain their civilian status.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
But if I saw a farrier "lost some hide" on one of my horses as you said, that would be the last time that farrier not only was in my barn but I would make darned sure he did not work in a lot of barns!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Heaven forfend! But first, shouldn't you get your story straight? If a farrier loses some hide, your inability to break your horses to trim/shoe caused the loss; if one of your horses lost some hide in the process of being trimmed/shod, it might be the farriers fault; it might be your fault - it would depend on how ane why the loss took place.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
As for the other mare, she was not throwing herself on the ground. It was a matter of balance and pain on her part, plain and simple. The isses was the joint mice, which when lodged in the joint at times was painful. It was not "puke" behavior. She would not "willfully" go down, far from it, b/c of her pastern it was difficult to stand on three legs. She was not trying to be difficult at all, my point was that we had to accommodate to her. I can only imagine what you do with horses with orthopedic issues, pregnant mares, geriatrics who just are not able to stand well.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If she went down, it was her doing. Your making excuses for her behavior is eloquent testimony to your ability to instill desirable habits in horses.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
The offer still stands, without the beating.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Beating? What on earth ever gave you such a silly idea? All it takes is a little knowledge and about 30 feet of 1/2" soft lay nylon.

Tom Stovall CJF

Nov. 10, 2004, 03:39 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by breezymeadow:

{deleita]

Any farrier who would punish a horse for acting up out of pain simply shouldn't be working around animals, period.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
With the exception of rodeo stock contractors, any owner who allows a horse to engage in behaviors dangerous to humans shouldn't be owning horses - unfortunately, all it takes to own a horse is the means, one doesn't need to know anything about horses.

Tom Stovall CJF

Nov. 10, 2004, 03:41 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by CuriosoJorge:
Exactly what are the qualifications that entitle one to call oneself a "Certified Journeyman Farrier"? Is it some kind of correspondance course? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's not something one finds in the bottom of a Crackerjack box.

Tom Stovall CJF

Nov. 10, 2004, 03:43 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by fernie fox:
Is he certified with The American Farriers Ass.

Or "the Brotherhood of Something or others? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

AFA, since 1983, before you were housebroke.

hitchinmygetalong

Nov. 10, 2004, 03:52 PM

Pardon me for interrupting this love fest, but I've known a lot of people with a lot of initials after their name, many of which mean "the check cleared."

And would someone PLEASE explain this rather disparaging use of the word "civilian"?

Tom Stovall CJF

Nov. 10, 2004, 04:01 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by hitchinmygetalong:
Well Mr. Tom Stovall CJF, now that you have insulted and irritated some really decent folk with your nasty and condescending posts, might I make a suggestion?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Certainly! As long as you don't mind my pointing out that your "suggestion" may elicit one of my own that has to do with placement and sunshine.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Go underground for a few months. Maybe you could spend your time making some nice holiday ornaments out of horseshoe nails or something.

Then, you CHANGE YOUR USER NAME on COTH.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Why? Unlike some folks, I'm not afraid to post using my given and family name.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Then, read for a while before you open your mouth. We're not a bunch of idiots here.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Quite true, some folks on this forum are extremely knowledgeable horse folks, but you are not one of that bunch. I suggest that if you find my contributions offputting, your digestion will improve if you simply quit reading them.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
We are, in general, very supportive people who sincerely want to help those who might have a little less expertise in certain areas. When my horse foundered last year, I listened to the vet, my farrier (who I trust totally), and the people on this board. They were wonderful and dispensed both good advice and just plain moral support.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
"We?" First person plural? Do you presume to speak for everyone on this forum of only those as knowledgeable as yourself?
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
I'd take them over a "Certified Journeyman Farrier" any day.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Your call. Doubtless, every CJF on the planet will be crushed and immediately rend their raiment and go into mourning.

xegeba

Nov. 10, 2004, 04:08 PM

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Tom Stovall CJF

Nov. 10, 2004, 04:14 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by hitchinmygetalong:
Pardon me for interrupting this love fest, but I've known a lot of people with a lot of initials after their name, many of which mean "the check cleared."

And would someone PLEASE explain this rather disparaging use of the word "civilian"?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It's probably a regional thing, but horsy non-professionals - mostly owners - are referred to as "civilians" amongst the trainers, exercise boys, grooms, pony boys, hot walkers, gate crew, vets, platers, and farriers who infest the show, race and performance world in most of Texas. It's not a derogatory term, it simply means, "non-professional."

Tom Stovall CJF

Nov. 10, 2004, 04:24 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tisha2:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall CJF:
I don't suffer fools all that well.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then why do you continue to type things which put you in the fool category? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is what passes for wit at your end of the sandbox? Pity that, I'd hoped for better. Did you wish to argue about the merits of instilling desirable habits in horses, the absurdity of attempting to excuse the failure to instill those habits, or will you be content with just being a fool?

hitchinmygetalong

Nov. 10, 2004, 04:25 PM

"Civilians" - That's funny. In my 30 - no, make that 36 - years of cleaning stalls, grooming horses, walking the backstretches of tracks, working with vets, and hugging folks who just had their horses put down, I've never heard it. Not once.

Oh, wait. You said it was "probably a regional thing." Well, that explains that. It must have missed me somewhere between Germany, Maryland, Illinois, Canada, Texas, New York, Nebraska, Arizona, and Kentucky. My bad.

And yes, I do take this very personally:

"some folks on this forum are extremely knowledgeable horse folks, but you are not one of that bunch"

Please remember the number one rule of the COTH board: Play nice. That was not nice.

hitchinmygetalong

Nov. 10, 2004, 04:31 PM

And now I'm backing out of this trainwreck. The number 2 rule of the boards is to discuss ISSUES, not individuals. I let myself lose sight of that and for that I apologize to the moderators and those who are seeking advice on this thread.

See ya!

SaddleFitterVA

Nov. 10, 2004, 04:35 PM

There are three issues being discussed here.

Bad behavior/poor manners
Pain - causing perceived bad behavior/poor manners, but actually a physical issue.
Knowing whether you are enough of a horseman to know the difference...or even understand that there is a difference.

I enjoy many of Tom's posts, but I'll stick to reading only his posts on the technicalities of horse shoes. I'll find my horsemanship advice elsewhere.

Mel

CuriosoJorge

Nov. 10, 2004, 04:54 PM

But where does the "Journeyman" part come from? The only other "journeyman" I know is a chap maker in Virginia. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Tom Stovall CJF

Nov. 10, 2004, 04:57 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by hitchinmygetalong:
"Civilians" - That's funny. In my 30 - no, make that 36 - years of cleaning stalls, grooming horses, walking the backstretches of tracks, working with vets, and hugging folks who just had their horses put down, I've never heard it. Not once.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Doubtless, there are many things under the sun that are unknown to you - as there are to me.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Oh, wait. You said it was "probably a regional thing." Well, that explains that. It must have missed me somewhere between Germany, Maryland, Illinois, Canada, Texas, New York, Nebraska, Arizona, and Kentucky. My bad.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Language is dynamic, not static. Perhaps hanging out with different company might enhance your vocabulary. Or, not.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
And yes, I do take this very personally:

"some folks on this forum are extremely knowledgeable horse folks, but you are not one of that bunch"
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You should take it personally. What part didn't you understand?
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Please remember the number one rule of the COTH board: Play nice. That was not nice.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Reality is not necessarily "nice", but it's nonetheless reality.

Lookout

Nov. 10, 2004, 05:15 PM

I started trimming a mare who was in "ill-broke puke" on one hind leg only. She would not hold it up for longer than 2 seconds. This went on for 2 trims. By the third trim an abscess had popped on the diagonal front, and she was no longer an ill-behaved puke. After that she held up all 4 feet beautifully.

Linus

Nov. 10, 2004, 05:15 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall CJF:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by breezymeadow:
Any farrier who would punish a horse for acting up out of pain simply shouldn't be working around animals, period.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
With the exception of rodeo stock contractors, any owner who allows a horse to engage in behaviors dangerous to humans shouldn't be owning horses - unfortunately, all it takes to own a horse is the means, one doesn't need to know anything about horses. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Initially agreed with BM's POV here, but am starting to wonder if it IS such a good idea to allow disobedience when a horse is in pain.

When a horse bucks, I punish first, ask questions about saddle fit, hocks, bad back later. I just don't want that sort of behavior to become habit, for any reason -- no matter how justifiable it may really start out.

DO we want our horses to think (if indeed they can) that there's ever an occasion on which they can ignore us? Today my hoof hurts like hell, and I can ignore her, tomorrow it's a little sore, in the future I just don't wanna ... disobedience progresses so quickly that I'm wondering if there is maybe some wisdom in TS's view, however packaged.

Flame suit on ....

Lookout

Nov. 10, 2004, 05:16 PM

Critter Everywhere, what the heck are joint mice?

Tom Stovall CJF

Nov. 10, 2004, 05:34 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lookout:
Critter Everywhere, what the heck are joint mice? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Joint mice are bits of cartilage or bone within a joint cavity. Lameness caused by joint mice is usually intermittent and characterized by sudden onsent and disappearance; i.e., a horse may be asymptomatic until the joint mouse is caught between the articulating surfaces of the joint, dead lame until the joint mouse is no longer caught there, then sound as a bygod - all in the space of a few steps.

creseida

Nov. 10, 2004, 05:37 PM

Until I read this thread, I actually thought Tom seemed to be a decent enough farrier, based on his postings about dealing with hoof conditions, etc.

But after seeing this attitude of horses being "pukes" and "civilian" being used in a derogatory manner, it is clear that TOM is the ignorant f*ck here. Unless you are a military farrier, (which I doubt, since they would treat their clients with respect) I have no idea what message you are trying to convey. Oh, except that if anyone needs a farrier, Tom Stovall is tops on the list of people NOT to call, because he is NOT professional.

I wonder, Tom, what you would have done to my mare 7 years ago? This is a mare who was always *perfect* about having her feet done, but started having issues about holding her back feet up for any length of time. Not just for the farrier, but for me. She'd either yank a foot away, or sometimes go partway down. Do you really think that this was a case of attitude on behalf of my mare? That she had my "number"? That she wasn't "broke" to pick up her feet? Why would she start doing this after I'd owned her for 5 1/2 years?

Should I have beat her? Flipped her? Sat on her head and read bad cowboy poetry (like there is any other kind)??

I await your answer.

Tom Stovall CJF

Nov. 10, 2004, 07:11 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by creseida:
Until I read this thread, I actually thought Tom seemed to be a decent enough farrier, based on his postings about dealing with hoof conditions, etc.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I live for civilian approval.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
But after seeing this attitude of horses being "pukes" and "civilian" being used in a derogatory manner, it is clear that TOM is the ignorant f*ck here.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You're not required to like my usage of the term. Owners, by and large, are not professional horsefolk, hence the term, "civilian" with reference to owners. It's use has no intrinsic derogatory meaning, but I suppose I could make an exception if you really need something to upset yourself about.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Unless you are a military farrier, (which I doubt, since they would treat their clients with respect) I have no idea what message you are trying to convey.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
One hates to suggest the obvious, but why not look it up? One of the older meanings of the term is "outsider", as in, "not part of a group of horsy professionals." But, I digress: Please be just as offended as you choose to be.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Oh, except that if anyone needs a farrier, Tom Stovall is tops on the list of people NOT to call, because he is NOT professional.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Heaven forfend! Not the dreaded, "Don't call Tom" punishment!
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
I wonder, Tom, what you would have done to my mare 7 years ago? This is a mare who was always *perfect* about having her feet done, but started having issues about holding her back feet up for any length of time. Not just for the farrier, but for me. She'd either yank a foot away, or sometimes go partway down. Do you really think that this was a case of _attitude_ on behalf of my mare? That she had my "number"? That she wasn't "broke" to pick up her feet? Why would she start doing this after I'd owned her for 5 1/2 years?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Most likely, bony changes - the presentation you describe is fairly common with the hinds of high level dressage horses and barrel horses.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Should I have beat her? Flipped her? Sat on her head and read bad cowboy poetry (like there is any other kind)??
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I guess you could've beat your old mare to your heart's content, but if I were doing it, I'd do as I've done for the last 40 years on presentation of a horse with serious hind end problems: Keep the foot as close to the ground as possible and directly under the hip, in what farriers call the "neutral" position - neither flexed nor extended. Bend my knees, and go about business as usual, but a helluva lot closer to the ground. At times, this can mean trimming/shoeing a hind foot with its dorsal surface surface literally on the ground, but that's sometimes the most efficient way to go about it.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
I await your answer.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You got it. Now, for extra credit, go back and read the exchanges in this thread for content, paying careful attention to the difference between a civilian's failure to fulfill their responsibilities (Three years on the place and still not broke to shoe?) and your horse's physical inability to maintain flexion or extension of a hind leg.

I don't have a problem with cripples, I've shod several; on the other hand, I have a big problem with civilians who allow their horses to dominate them when their inteptitude can get a farrier hurt. To reiterate: There is NO excuse for allowing any horse to engage in behaviors that are dangerous to humans.

breezymeadow

Nov. 10, 2004, 07:35 PM

Mr. Stovall - Even if your talent barely approached your ego & rudeness, after your posts here it is doubtful that anyone with half of one brain cell would be interested in your opinion(s) any further.

Your clients must be one interesting bunch - I'm amazed that you can make a living as a farrier with the attitudes you've expressed here.

Lookout

Nov. 10, 2004, 07:47 PM

Must be a regional thing http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall CJF:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lookout:
Critter Everywhere, what the heck are joint mice? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Joint mice are bits of cartilage or bone within a joint cavity. Lameness caused by joint mice is usually intermittent and characterized by sudden onsent and disappearance; i.e., a horse may be asymptomatic until the joint mouse is caught between the articulating surfaces of the joint, dead lame until the joint mouse is no longer caught there, then sound as a bygod - all in the space of a few steps. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tom Stovall CJF

Nov. 10, 2004, 08:05 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by HeyYouNags:
Umm, can I just point out to you "civilians" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif that Bute and other NSAIDs do not interfere with nerve impulses? Don't want anyone to go away believing that.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'd be most interested in learning the exact means by which you feel NSAIDs produce analgesia without interfering in some way with the transmission of nervous impulses. I understand that NASIDs prevent/reduce the body's production of protaglandins which reduces inflammation and pain, but I was under the impression that NASIDs act on peripheral nerves as well.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
And yes, please, do give Bute to your horses with pain issues prior to farrier work. My most excellent farrier (not sure about his official CJF status...) would give it two of his Scottish thumbs up. As would most vets I know.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Bad advice! Most of the vets I know don't want any horse with pain issues (read, "cripples") given any kind of NASID before trimming/shoeing because the administration of an analgesic makes it difficult to determine whether the drug or the trimming/shoeing caused any improvement. Perhaps your vast civilian experience varies.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
And lastly, some horses that have a spasm/lift/pull away kind of response to picking up a hind leg may have "shivers" or EPSSM. It would be most prudent and humane not to beat them into submission.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
In your lifetime, how many such horses have you personally seen as described?
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Barely picking up the hind foot works better. I imagine a bit of Ace might also help, since it's a muscle cramping problem.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If one confines oneself to broke horses and knows how to pick up a hind, no drugs are necessary. The routine use of tranquilizers is a tacit admission of ineptitude.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
But don't mind me. I'm not a CJF. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Obviously. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Linus

Nov. 10, 2004, 08:09 PM

I gotta say, in all my time on wreck.eq I never imaged I'd see Stovall use an emoticon.

Tom Stovall CJF

Nov. 10, 2004, 08:25 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by breezymeadow:
Mr. Stovall - Even if your talent barely approached your ego & rudeness, after your posts here it is doubtful that anyone with half of one brain cell would be interested in your opinion(s) any further.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I sincerely hope you escape from those dastardly varlets who've placed your head in a vise, sewn you eyelids open, and forced you to read my
posts. Again, if you don't like stuff, for goodness sake, quit reading it!
[/QUOTE]
Your clients must be one interesting bunch - I'm amazed that you can make a living as a farrier with the attitudes you've expressed here.
[/QUOTE]
Lucky for me, I'm judged on the basis of results, not my bedside manner. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Tom Stovall CJF

Nov. 10, 2004, 08:28 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Linus:
I gotta say, in all my time on wreck.eq I never imaged I'd see Stovall use an emoticon. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm mellowing out in my dotage. Or, maybe it's impending senility. Quien sabe?

Karosel

Nov. 10, 2004, 08:50 PM

WOW! Tom Stovall, I would just like to take the time to remind you and others, that this forum is a place for nice cordial chit-chat about what we all love-horses. So if you insist on being a jack-ass and the insitagtor of argument please find a new forum to verbally defacate on. Its too bad that your personality comes with your knowledge, as I have read some valuable contributions that you have made. To the others what is it we always say? oh yes thats right, DONT FEED THE TROLL.

fernie fox

Nov. 10, 2004, 09:05 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall CJF:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by fernie fox:
Is he certified with The American Farriers Ass.

Or "the Brotherhood of Something or others? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

AFA, since 1983, before you were housebroke. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually I have quite enjoyed Tom's Banter on this thread ,although I was "housebroke" long before he was a twinkle in his daddy's eye.

By the way Tom,my hubby joined AFA,a couple of years before you did. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

He has had enough of it after all these years and has cut back 3/4 of his clients and is starting a new carreer. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Times are rather hard at the moment,but the horse industry was good to him.

The horses are getting heavier,and some of the owners!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Add to that some of the Barefoot fanatics,and do it yourselfers,I'm glad he is getting out of the biz.

Good luck to you,you are giving some of our guys here a run for their money.

Very funny.I like your sense of humour. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Pocket Pony

Nov. 10, 2004, 09:11 PM

fernie, is that your husband in the pictures on your Webshots album? Very handsome! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Karosel

Nov. 10, 2004, 09:15 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Pocket Pony:
fernie, is that your husband in the pictures on your Webshots album? Very handsome! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahh yes must agree. Very handsome older man, well relative to my 20 year old self.

dropitlikeitshot

Nov. 10, 2004, 09:19 PM

Doesn't sound to me as if Tom just stands around beating horses for yanking him around. Sounds to me as though he's willing to understand if a horse has a physical malady that prevents them from being comfortable in the usual shoeing position. However, I'm fairly certain he's been around and is skilled enough to know the difference between a pain response and an attitude problem. But in a job like his where you're bent over holding up the legs of animals that weight 300-2000 lbs (depending obviously on breed, height, etc) you can't afford to take chances when a horse won't stand for shoeing. I know that I certainly can't let any of mine have an inch as I'm not a very big gal, so when they put a foot out of line I have to be pretty darn firm, and you know what? Because I was very adamant and made my point once, I never have to do it again. I can utilize a deeply spoken "Hey!" or "Uh uh!" to make the point for me.

Erin

Nov. 10, 2004, 09:25 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall CJF:

Reality is not necessarily "nice", but it's nonetheless reality. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And "reality" on this board requires being nice. If you can't do it, you can't post here.

Rule #1: Be nice, be respectful, be polite.

I have absolutely no problem with removing posting privileges from those who can't abide by that.

And for the love of all things holy, when will the rest of you learn that just because one person can't follow rule #1 DOES NOT mean that it's open season? Here's a hint... don't hit "post now." Sit on your fingers and hit the post alert button instead.

Now, I am sure it is possible to have a civil discussion on this topic, since everyone's gotten their snarks out of their systems. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif So, by all means, carry on... but the first hint of snarkiness gets your post zapped and if I have to do it more than once, the thread gets closed.

Karosel

Nov. 10, 2004, 09:31 PM

Oh I agree that your horse should not behave badly when it is in pain. Of course not huge amounts of pain. For instance, my mare has arthritis in her right hock. It hurts her when the farrier is trimming that foot, but my mare patiently tolerates the pain. My farrier may make a comment that she doesnt want to flex that leg, but I just remind him about her arthritis and the farrier does his best at not flexing Calisto's leg too much.

My mare has misbehaved before though when she was in pain. She was having a bout of colic caused by the movement of her late term foal. While I was walking her waiting for the vet to arrive she gave me a light bump with her head. I gave a verbal reprimand and kept on walking her out. Well, within one more circuit she bumped me again with her head, but this time a lot harder, she sent my 120lbs flying 10 feet! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Needless to say I was quite pis$@ed and Calisto was strongly disciplined for it. I am assuming that she gave me a bump whenever she got a sharp pain, but it doesnt matter if she is in pain or not. If Im knocked out by one of her bumps who is going to walk her out of her colic?

I also dont buy the "oh my horse was abused". Yeah yours and everyone elses. My mare came to me very flinchy and with very sensitive sides, in fact she still is quite sensitive, but I have learned to ride with a sensitive leg and she has become more desensitized. I just chalked it up to her being a sensitive mare that was previously handled and ridden too rough for her tastes, but not necessarily abused.

fernie fox

Nov. 10, 2004, 09:41 PM

Pocket Pony,yes that is my poor long suffering hubby. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I plucked him from his mummy 23 years ago,I did research all over the globe, http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I need to get those pics off my webshots,I was trying to get pics. for his biz.

My favorite photos of him though are of him riding,scarlet coat and dressboots look really good on him.

But he hung up his boots when his Favorite hunting mare died.[OTTB by the way]

She had been retired for a couple of years,and was his soulmate,I have not been able to get him on a horse since.

Erin

Nov. 10, 2004, 09:59 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall CJF:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
But don't mind me. I'm not a CJF. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Obviously. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But she is a DVM. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And I'm one who DID have a vet recommend Bute before farrier work. On a 27-year-old retiree who had bone chips in his knee, diagnosed with xrays, and who really had trouble holding it up long enough to be trimmed (forget shoes... he hadn't seen those in years).

The source of the pain was known and documented, and it didn't bother him enough to interfere with his life as a pasture ornament. He got Legend and a joint supplement for maintenance, and Bute for the farrier every six weeks.

Tom Stovall CJF

Nov. 10, 2004, 10:06 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by fernie fox:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall CJF:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by fernie fox:
Is he certified with The American Farriers Ass.

Or "the Brotherhood of Something or others? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

AFA, since 1983, before you were housebroke. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually I have quite enjoyed Tom's Banter on this thread ,although I was "housebroke" long before he was a twinkle in his daddy's eye.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If you were housebroke before 1941, you have my sincerest apology.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
By the way Tom,my hubby joined AFA,a couple of years before you did. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm not an AFA member and never have been. I've been a TPFA member since its organization in 1979 and we are an AFA affiliate. I disagree with the AFA's emphasis on contesting and failure to focus on the edcation of the horseowning public.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
He has had enough of it after all these years and has cut back 3/4 of his clients and is starting a new carreer. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What's he doing?

I haven't taken on any new clients other than through the clinics or farrier referrals for more than 10 years, I've been segueing into the blacksmith business as fast as I can - but I can't in good conscience quit the folks who helped put my kids through college.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Times are rather hard at the moment,but the horse industry was good to him.

The horses are getting heavier,and some of the owners!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I've been blessed with good owners, trainers, and veterinarians. Eveybody in the business knows I'm old, fat, and lazy and not looking for horses to shoe - so the kids new to the trade don't mind asking for a little help now and then and I like helping them out.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Add to that some of the Barefoot fanatics,and do it yourselfers,I'm glad he is getting out of the biz.

Good luck to you,you are giving some of our guys here a run for their money.
Very funny.I like your sense of humour. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks, I get a little carried away when folks attempt to absolve themselves of their responsibilty to break their horses to trim/shoe because every experienced farrier I know has been hurt at one time or another by some ill broke puke.

Tom Stovall CJF

Nov. 10, 2004, 10:29 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Erin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall CJF:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
But don't mind me. I'm not a CJF. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Obviously. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
But she is a DVM. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not many folks are both. Ric Redden is the only one who comes to mind. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I'm still trying to figure out how NSAIDs are analgesics that reduce pain and inflammation,
are thought to act on the peripherial nerves, but do not interfere with the transmission of nervous impulses as I've been taught. Perhaps she'll be kind enough to explain the mechanism to me.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
And I'm one who DID have a vet recommend Bute before farrier work. On a 27-year-old retiree who had bone chips in his knee, diagnosed with xrays, and who really had trouble holding it up long enough to be trimmed (forget shoes... he hadn't seen those in years).

The source of the pain was known and documented, and it didn't bother him enough to interfere with his life as a pasture ornament. He got Legend and a joint supplement for maintenance, and Bute for the farrier every six weeks. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't recall any mention of a geriatric pensioner with chips in his knees and there's considerable difference between your horse and many of those described in this thread. While I realize there are exceptions, IME, drugs are always a poor substitute for training.

Erin

Nov. 10, 2004, 10:33 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall CJF:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
And yes, please, do give Bute to your horses with pain issues prior to farrier work. My most excellent farrier (not sure about his official CJF status...) would give it two of his Scottish thumbs up. As would most vets I know.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Bad advice! Most of the vets I know don't want any horse with pain issues (read, "cripples") given any kind of NASID before trimming/shoeing because the administration of an analgesic makes it difficult to determine whether the drug or the trimming/shoeing caused any improvement. Perhaps your vast civilian experience varies. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, I was just going off your statement above. The horse was practically a "cripple" and he had "pain issues" and a vet recommended Bute.

I'm sure you weren't thinking of a case like mine when you made that statement, and that was my point in posting... it was an awfully sweeping statement and taken at face value, would seem to disparage very legitimate uses of NSAIDs.

Everythingbutwings

Nov. 11, 2004, 04:53 AM

My farrier recommended that I give my 30 year old arthritic pony a half tab of Bute before he arrived.

It worked.

creseida

Nov. 11, 2004, 08:06 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall CJF:
I live for civilian approval. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You should, because we're the ones who hire (or fire) you. We're also the grape vine, AKA word of mouth that is sooooo very important in the horse world, and can make or break someone.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Heaven forfend! Not the dreaded, "Don't call Tom" punishment!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> When you lose clients, you lose money. It would be punishment. To your wallet. Perhaps you shouold consider that before referring to horses ans "pukes". I don't notice anyone on this board standing up for you, saying they are happy to have you as their farrier....

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> I don't have a problem with cripples, I've shod several; on the other hand, I have a big problem with civilians who allow their horses to dominate them when their inteptitude can get a farrier hurt. To reiterate: There is NO excuse for allowing any horse to engage in behaviors that are dangerous to humans. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, the Original Poster's horse sounds like it HAS a lameness issue. I believe she mentioned a FRACTURE???? Willingly picks up 3/4 legs just fine. Yet your first response was quite derogatory in nature. <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Does the term, "ill-broke puke" mean anything to you? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sounds to me like you DO have a problem with cripples.

And for the record, no I didn't beat my mare. She was not being deliberately disobedient. But unlike you, whose first response to any resistance is violence, <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>the mare would probably lose a little hide <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>did anyone in your camp ever think about tying the mare down when she does her "tip herself over" thing <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
my farrier was patient with her because he knew it was not normal for her. She wasn't being an "ill-broke puke".

breezymeadow

Nov. 11, 2004, 08:12 AM

Guys - I don't think anyone here is going to glean any useful information from "Tom Stovall, CJF, aka Superman Know-It-All Farrer". Just thank your lucky stars guys, that he ain't YOUR farrier. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Tom Stovall CJF

Nov. 11, 2004, 09:51 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by creseida:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall CJF:
I live for civilian approval.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You should, because we're the ones who hire (or fire) you. We're also the grape vine, AKA word of mouth that is sooooo very important in the horse world, and can make or break someone.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I fear you vastly overrate the importance of civilian opinion. In the world of show, race, performance, and veterinary farriery, many farriers seldom encounter civilians.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Heaven forfend! Not the dreaded, "Don't call Tom" punishment!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
When you lose clients, you lose money. It would be punishment. To your wallet. Perhaps you shouold consider that before referring to horses ans "pukes".
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Lucky me! I've been referring to horses not broke to having their feet handled as "ill broke pukes" for 40-odd years and my wallet hasn't been adversely impacted yet.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
I don't notice anyone on this board standing up for you, saying they are happy to have you as their farrier....
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
My tailor will be measuring me for sackcloth this very afternoon.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> I don't have a problem with cripples, I've shod several; on the other hand, I have a big problem with civilians who allow their horses to dominate them when their ineptitude can get a farrier hurt. To reiterate: There is NO excuse for allowing any horse to engage in behaviors that are dangerous to humans.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Well, the Original Poster's horse sounds like it HAS a lameness issue. I believe she mentioned a FRACTURE????
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Please re-read the original post carefully, this time for content. The fracture to which the OP speculated was that of HER foot, not the horses.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Willingly picks up 3/4 legs just fine. Yet your first response was quite derogatory in nature.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The OP did not mention the notice of any apparent lameness, but she did mention that the mare had not been trimmed since March. On attempting to pick the fourth foot, she said the mare, "...swung her butt at me and slammed her hoof down on my foot..." IME, this is an intolerable behavior, unquestionably dangerous to humans. IME, when a horse goes without foot care for six months, there's usually a reason and that reason does not bode well for next person who picks up a foot.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Does the term, "ill-broke puke" mean anything to you? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Sounds to me like you DO have a problem with cripples.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No ma'am, I don't have a problem with cripples, I have a problem with folks who allow their horses to engage in behaviors that can hurt me and attempt to make "dog ate my homework" excuses for their inability to instill desirable habits in their horses. It has not been established that the OP's mare was crippled or even sore, only that she stomped the foot of the OP when she tried to pick a foot. Please re-read the OP's post. When you do, pay careful attention to the last sentence in which the OP wonders, "Maybe a reason for this reaction?"

Based on the OP's reportage of the mare's history and the mare's behavior, it's still my considered opinion the mare is just another ill-broke puke. Bear in mind that this opinion is not a reflection on the OP - the mare's behavior is not her fault, she is the victim of someone else's failure to break this mare to having her feet handled.

Small Change

Nov. 11, 2004, 11:17 AM

NSAIDs' analgesic and anti-inflammatory effects are due to the inhibition of prostaglandin synthesis. Antipyretic action is due to vasodilation and inhibition of prostaglandin synthesis in the central nervous system.

hitchinmygetalong

Nov. 11, 2004, 12:27 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by myhorse:
Last night I gave her two grams of bute.To make her drying off period more comfortable. This evening I gave her a gram of bute. I picked out all her feet including the one she did not want me to touch yesterday. At first she did resist once then held it for me while I cleaned it out. Her feet are in bad shape. I am glad that i was able to pick it out. I also feel as though she is having pain somewhere.

I do have a ? regarding her front right foot. It is somewhat high healed and has a dish from the coronet to the ground that is about a 1/8 inch wide. Does anyone know what could be the cause of this? All of my horses have fairly good feet except my OTTB but even her problems are minor. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm doing the OP a little favor here and bumping up this question that got buried in the fray. Insights anyone?

Tom Stovall CJF

Nov. 11, 2004, 12:50 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Small Change:
NSAIDs' analgesic and anti-inflammatory effects are due to the inhibition of prostaglandin synthesis. Antipyretic action is due to vasodilation and inhibition of prostaglandin synthesis in the central nervous system.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I appreciate your taking the time to answer my query as to the way NSAIDs work. Aside from their inhibiting prostaglandin synthesis, do you think there's anything to the following?

Just how NSAIDs work to reduce pain is not completely understood. It is theorized that NSAIDs act on the peripheral nerves where pain signals often originate...
http://www.cancerpage.com/centers/pain/drugtherapy.asp

Small Change

Nov. 11, 2004, 01:07 PM

Prostaglandins are one of the two principal subclasses of eicosanoids (the other subclass being leukotrienes). These prostaglandins have a huge range of functions: they modify responses to hormones, contribute to the inflammatory response, prevent stomach ulcers, dilate airways, regulate body temperature and influence the formation of blood clots, to name a few.

To be more specific, regarding the inflammatory response, the prostaglandins are released by the damages cells and intesify the effects of histamine and kinins, and may also stimulate the emigration of phagocytes through capillary walls. If no prostaglandins are synthesized, obviously this whole process is depressed. It was about 1970 when all this was discovered, none of which really has much to do with the peripheral nervous system...

The key reason that NSAIDs work so well is that inhibition of prostaglandin synthesis plays major roles in reducing fever, pain and inflammation. I can't really draw any lines between NSAIDs and the PNS, but it doesn't mean those lines don't exist...

Ghazzu

Nov. 11, 2004, 06:57 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by breezymeadow:
Mr. Stovall - Even if your talent barely approached your ego & rudeness, after your posts here it is doubtful that anyone with half of one brain cell would be interested in your opinion(s) any further.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Guess that puts me in the ancephalic group--or would if I gave that opinion any credibility.

I'd be happy to live close enough to Tom to have him take care of my herd.

And I value his opinions on farriery as well as other stuff.

I may not always agree with him, but he does know what he's talking about.

Rusty Stirrup

Nov. 12, 2004, 04:57 AM

I agree completely that a horse must not present a danger to humans. As I've posted many times, I strongly believe that standing for the farrier (if you choose to use one) and vet should be a basic part of training just as standing for tacking up and mounting are. With some badly started horses this can take months and months of re-training. If a horse must be sedated in the mean time as a temp. measure, so be it.
Anyone who would flip or lay a horse down is showing their complete lack of knowledge of horses. Yeah, lay 'em down and sit on their head and they will become placid. But at what cost? The psychological damage done in some cases is horrible. This technique simulates the preditor "drag down" and puts the horse in endorphin overload as the next step is preceived as death. Horses have even been known to become comatose using this technique. It is one of the most brutal, backward things man has ever come up with in the name of "training". I thought we had progressed since the old days when horses were "broken". It is sad that a "professional" horseman would advise this type of "technique". JMHO

Tom Stovall CJF

Nov. 12, 2004, 06:55 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Rusty Stirrup:

[...]

Anyone who would flip or lay a horse down is showing their complete lack of knowledge of horses. Yeah, lay 'em down and sit on their head and they will become placid. But at what cost? The psychological damage done in some cases is horrible.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Your statement consists of anthropomorphic psychobabble.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
This technique simulates the preditor "drag down" and puts the horse in endorphin overload as the next step is preceived as death...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
"Preceived as death?" Not so! It is impossible for any animal incapable of abstract reasoning to contemplate its own demise because death is the ultimate abstraction. Horses behave (acquire habits) on the basis of their own instinct and experience, they cannot behave on the basis of an abstraction as do humans. No living horse has experienced death; no horse can base its behavior on a non instinctive or unexperienced event.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Horses have even been known to become comatose using this technique...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Known by whom? Most horses quit struggling and lie motionless when tied down, all I've seen quickly roused themselves from their "sleep" when released from their fetters. The buzzword "comatose" implies a coma, something I've never seen or heard of under these circumstances - which makes me wonder how many horses you've personally seen enter a coma-like state after being tied down, then subsequently released?
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
It is one of the most brutal, backward things man has ever come up with in the name of "training". I thought we had progressed since the old days when horses were "broken". It is sad that a "professional" horseman would advise this type of "technique". JMHO <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nonsense. While the process may cause some folks to have an attack of the vapors, tying a foot up or the horse down is just one of many means of removing bad habits and instilling good habits in horses. Under some circumstances, tying a foot up or a horse down is the most efficient way of getting the job done and, while the horse may lose a little hide, they are seldom the worse for wear.

On a personal note, when I kept a few practice broncs, I routinely tied a foot up or the horse down in order to work on their feet. It didn't stop any of them from bucking, so I don't think it harmed their tender psyche or damaged their self-image. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Kathy Johnson

Nov. 12, 2004, 07:25 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Eveybody in the business knows I'm old, fat, and lazy and not looking for horses to shoe <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Some things never change http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifI used Tom Stovall for a farrier back in Texas years ago, and he was great. I can't quite remember where. Texover?

I agree (is this what we are talking about?) that tying or laying a horse down probably does no permanent psychological damage. On the other hand, it has absolutely no training merits either, The Horsewhisperer be damned. Because the method has been both demonized and glorified as the last resort method on a hopeless horse, people actually think it works to turn a horse around. It's really just a last ditch effort when the human has reached the end of his ropes.

MistyBlue

Nov. 12, 2004, 08:17 AM

My only issue with this thread is the civilian labelling.
While I hold most farriers in highest regard, including my own CJF farrier, is it possible to leave the term civilian to those who actually are civilians in the truest sense of the word.
In this questionable time of war it's disrespectful at the least for anyone to label others as civilians if they have no actual idea if those of us reading have actually served this country.
Thank you for understanding, now back to the freedom of speech being exercised here.

MistyBlue
nee' GS Ramaccia, USMC http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Simkie

Nov. 12, 2004, 08:25 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Kathy Johnson:
Some things never change http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifI used Tom Stovall for a farrier back in Texas years ago, and he was great. I can't quite remember where. Texover? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really? How awesome, Kathy. Did you know that we have our very own Stovall desciple here in Colorado? Tom made one hell of an impression on Trey Green, and Trey is the best shoer I've ever had.

Count me in the group that would hire Tom in a heartbeat, if he were available.

Tom Stovall CJF

Nov. 12, 2004, 08:48 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by MistyBlue:
My only issue with this thread is the civilian labelling.

While I hold most farriers in highest regard, including my own CJF farrier, is it possible to leave the term civilian to those who actually are civilians in the truest sense of the word.
In this questionable time of war it's disrespectful at the least for anyone to label others as civilians if they have no actual idea if those of us reading have actually served this country. Thank you for understanding, now back to the freedom of speech being exercised here.

MistyBlue
nee' GS Ramaccia, USMC http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No disrespect to folks in the service of our country - or anyone else - is intended or implied by my use of the word "civilian."

The term has several meanings which are used to distinguish one segment of a population from another; e.g., soldiers, policemen and firemen are distinguised from others by the use of the term; the term can also be correctly used to mean, "outsider", as in, "not a member of a particular group."

I wondered if my use of the term could be considered disparaging or denigrating, so I looked it up online. I'm not much on argumentum ad lexicon, but the primary meaning of the word "civilian" is "one skilled in civil law."

Whoda thunk it?

Please see:

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=civilian

In the crowd of folks who get paid for working with horses with whom I regularly associate - trainers, farriers, veterinarians, cowboys, and other ne'er-do-wells - the term is regularly and correctly used to distinguish ourselves from folks who don't get paid for working with horses ("outsiders").

breezymeadow

Nov. 12, 2004, 11:15 AM

Sorry - regardless of your dictionary "definition", a "farrier" has no business distinguishing his clients as "civilians".

And while you may disagree, there are a lot of "so-called" farriers out there who know far less than the owners of the horses they are working on. In addition - your designation of any horse who gives you trouble is automatically a "puke-trained horse" just goes to show either your snobbiness or your stupidity. It's probably a very good thing that you are no longer shoeing horses.

A farrier is just that - a "farrier" aka blacksmith. He's not someone defending our country, he's not a "lawyer", he's not a veterinarian. For GOD'S SAKES - he's a FARRIER. Not a NEUROSURGEON - a farrier.

Why do these guys think they deserve some sort of godly status???

Tom Stovall CJF

Nov. 12, 2004, 11:34 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by breezymeadow:
Sorry - regardless of your dictionary "definition", a "farrier" has no business distinguishing his clients as "civilians".
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
With all due respect, it's Mr. Webster's dictionary, not mine. And, while your opinion is certainly valued, you don't get to determine the verbal deportment of anyone other than yourself and those upon whom you are able to impose your will - one of whom, I'm not.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
A farrier is just that - a "farrier" aka blacksmith.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually, all farriers are not blacksmiths and all blacksmiths are certainly not farriers - although some of us both hats. To be precise, a farrier is someone who confines his forge work to horseshoes and farrier tools; a blacksmith is someone who does general forge work.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
He's not someone defending our country, he's not a "lawyer", he's not a veterinarian. For GOD'S SAKES - he's a FARRIER.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You appear to be tilting at some non-existent windmill.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Why do these guys think they deserve some sort of godly status???
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I can't speak for any farrier but myself, but I assure you that I would never consider anyone who makes their living with their arse higner than their head to have attained any sort of "godly status."

Spot

Nov. 12, 2004, 11:46 AM

You know - I ran out of my supply of popcorn http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif sitting back and watching this thread unfold in a multitude of directions!

It is certainly an interesting study in human interaction via the Internet! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

I am, however, enjoying the wit and humor displayed on both sides of this "discussion" immensely.

Give me a few more minutes to get more popcorn, start popping and get comfortable in my chair and wait for Round 3 to start!

I do have to comment though - whatever is being shoveled his way, Tom must have one helluva large shovel as he keeps scooping it up and tossing it right back again!

:Spot:

breezymeadow

Nov. 12, 2004, 12:18 PM

[I can't speak for any farrier but myself, but I assure you that I would never consider anyone who makes their living with their arse higner than their head to have attained any sort of "godly status."[/QUOTE]

EXACTLY!!!! Which is why your posts are so utterly LUDICROUS!!!!

Before any of you go OFF on me, print this thread out & show it to your farrier. Then print the results out here.

(Lose your way thru the dictionary, Tom? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif. Poor boy - or how did you say it - "poor, fat, lazy boy". . .. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif)

Tom Stovall CJF

Nov. 12, 2004, 12:20 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Spot:
[...]
I do have to comment though - whatever is being shoveled his way, Tom must have one helluva large shovel as he keeps scooping it up and tossing it right back again!
:Spot: <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'll be stuck at the drawing board for the next couple of weeks doing new stuff for Houston.

http://katyforge.com/work01.html

None of this stuff is for sale, it's just a small part of a bunch of wireframes I need to get done between now and the end of the month. When I get tired of drawing, I look in on this forum to see who is doing what and to whom. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Save me some popcorn.

Tom Stovall CJF

Nov. 12, 2004, 12:36 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by breezymeadow:
[I can't speak for any farrier but myself, but I assure you that I would never consider anyone who makes their living with their arse higner than their head to have attained any sort of "godly status." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
EXACTLY!!!! Which is why your posts are so utterly LUDICROUS!!!!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
While your opinion is always welcome and held in the highest regard, I feel I must point out that your continued inability to understand the written word does not render the written word "ludicrous", it merely bears eloquent testimony to your ongoing comprehension crisis.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Before any of you go OFF on me, print this thread out & show it to your farrier. Then pring the results out here.

(Lose your way thru the dictionary, Tom? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif. Poor boy - or how did you say it - "poor, fat, lazy boy". . .. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Boy? Thanks! I haven't been called "boy" in quite a while. By the way, it's "old, fat, and lazy..."

Barbara L.

Nov. 12, 2004, 02:41 PM

While my farrier may not be so quick on the comeback as Tom is, I believe if we deleted all of the insults, and printed out the shoeing/behavior problems as seen by Tom, my blacksmith would agree with a large portion of it.
I'd like to leave in the outside commentary for a few laughs, though. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Some of you seem to picture Tom as a rough and gruff kind of guy who would slam a horse to the ground in a blink of an eye, but I don't see anywhere where he practices that. I see a man with agreat sense of humor who just does not suffer fools well.
If he lived near NJ and was taking clients, and my blacksmith gave up on me, I believe I'd laugh and learn quite a bit.
PLUS-he said he has kids he put through college, so how surly and mean can he be????

Erin

Nov. 12, 2004, 03:18 PM

Final warning... you are NOT here to throw insults at each other. Now either get back to talking about horses or move on and find another playground.

myhorse

Nov. 12, 2004, 05:01 PM

Sorry I started this post, it was never meant to turnout in such a manner.

Anyways, back to the mare of this topic. The reason she had not been trimmed in so long was due to time, money restraints. Her owner also still needs some insight as to the importance of keeping them done.I am going to have my farrier speak to the owner as to such when he is out next week to trim.

In the mean time I had posted about her front hoof being well odd to me. It seems to be somewhat more upright than her others and has a 1/8 wide dish in it from the coronet to the ground. What would cause this? Her other front hoof is similar just not to the same degree.

Nov. 12, 2004, 05:04 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by myhorse:
In the mean time I had posted about her front hoof being well odd to me. It seems to be somewhat more upright than her others and has a 1/8 wide dish in it from the coronet to the ground. What would cause this? Her other front hoof is similar just not to the same degree. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Club foot, "clubby" foot, or founder at some point.

Eileen M

Nov. 12, 2004, 06:08 PM

<hands over to Spot my bowl of popcorn.... it's unsalted , but has butter http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Anyone else want some? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

QueenMother

Nov. 12, 2004, 06:17 PM

Au contraire, MyHorse,I'm so glad you started this topic. Tom Stoval CJF's wit has kept me chuckling all day -- no easy feat given the constant rain and my susceptability to SAD.

Tom(CJF), I'm sorry, however, that you felt the need to describe yourslef as old, fat, lazy. Words are a real turn-on to me and I had imagined something way sexier, Cyrano-style.

Eileen M

Nov. 12, 2004, 06:25 PM

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

QM... I have never laughed so hard from a post on COTH as I did just now http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

myhorse

Nov. 12, 2004, 06:48 PM

Is there any sure way for me to tell if she has infact foundered before? If she has I can assure you her current owner doesn't have a clue.

Nov. 12, 2004, 06:55 PM

Just by looking at her foot/feet, no, you can't tell. Xrays might help, might not at this point. Can you post pictures of her feet? If so, you might want to put them on another thread http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Rusty Stirrup

Nov. 13, 2004, 03:56 AM

I don't want to feed any trolls but I must comment that I stand by my first post. Maybe I didn't phrase it well enough for some. When a horse is down and restrained you can't convince me that the fact that he is trapped and could be EATEN doesn't enter his mind. That to me, is perceiving death on some level. Call it collective memory, instinct or just sheer terror. I give animals more credit for abstract thought. They are not dumb animals and possess wisdom. But then, I have also been known to babble. As always JMHO.

classicsporthorses

Nov. 13, 2004, 04:24 AM

I have to agree with Rusty Stirrup. I have thought about this a lot over the past few days. Really and truly we don't know what thoughts, feelings or emotions mammals are capable of for as humans we don't know how to measure it.

I have raised a lot of animals in my day, those from birth to getting animals as young adults or aged. I have seen instinct and learned behavior in all sorts of animals. I have personal experience, as I am sure many of you have too, of behavior from animals that you just cannot explain.

I think of what we have learned about what dolphins are capable of. I recently saw a program on the intelligence of an Octopus! Amazing!! We as humans often think we are so much higher on the food change but in reality we are not.

In my opinion, I think mammals are so much more tolerant of us then we are of them. Some of them (horses, dogs, whatever) could really knock us to the moon or take us on a Nantucket sleigh ride but instead they patiently accept us and love us for what we are-not far above neanderthals.

MsM

Nov. 13, 2004, 04:59 AM

Wow! I just found and read this whole thread! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
I understand that Tom requires that the horses he works on are broke to be trimmed. And that too many owners excuse their horses bad behavior and dont do the necessary training
I dont understand his problem with common NSAIDS like bute when dealing with horses with chronic issues. It would seem that if a problem has been identified and treated appropriately, pain relief of pain that cannot be eliminated would be a good thing. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif Of course the horse has to be trained to behave, but there is no need for him to suffer unnecessary pain.
I also dont undertand about the mare that fell to the gound, but pehaps that is my interpretation of the situation.(if I remember correctly, it was many posts ago!) I am not picturing this horse thowing herself down in a tantrum. From the description, I saw a horse trying to cooperate and not kick or fall onto the people, but ultimately losing her balance and falling in the other direction. The fact that she didnt object or resist in another way when allowed to lean on a wall would seem to support this. Assuming nothing more can be done to help her physical condition, what is the harm in allowing her to lean on a wall?

Tom Stovall CJF

Nov. 13, 2004, 05:18 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Rusty Stirrup:
I don't want to feed any trolls but I must comment that I stand by my first post. Maybe I didn't phrase it well enough for some. When a horse is down and restrained you can't convince me that the fact that he is trapped and could be EATEN doesn't enter his mind.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
While horses are prey animals, equipped with the usual instincts for fight/flight, they are incapable of thinking, "Oh my goodness, if I'm laying on the ground, wrapped up like a brogan shoe, then something might eat me." A horse cannot base a behavior on extrapolation.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
That to me, is perceiving death on some level.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The premise of your argument presumes its conclusion.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Call it collective memory, instinct or just sheer terror. I give animals more credit for abstract thought.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Attributing human behavior to animals is called "anthropomorphism." Remember Clever Hans?
[...]

Tom Stovall CJF

Nov. 13, 2004, 06:16 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by myhorse:
Is there any sure way for me to tell if she has in fact foundered before? If she has I can assure you her current owner doesn't have a clue. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The following is not intended to be definitive, it's just general information. For a specific diagnosis, ask your veterinarian.

It's possible to determine if the mare has foundered in the past with lateral radiographs.

Assuming the mare is asymptomatic and stable, if the coffin bone (P3) is parallel to the dorsal surface of the hoof wall, then the mare has not foundered.

If the distance between P3 and dorsal wall is measurably greater at the distal aspect of the bone and the transition is relatively uniform, then the mare has foundered at some time in her life, most likely systemically and bilaterally.

If the distance between P3 and the dorsal wall is parallel at the proximal aspect of the bone, then deviates abruptly from parallel at some point along the bone's dorsal surface, then the mare has foundered at some time in her life, probably mechanically, either unilaterally or bilaterally.

If the angle between the dorsal surface of P3 and the ground surface of the hoof is greater than 60 degrees, then the hoof meets the textbook criterion for a club foot. It is quite common for such feet to present with radiographic signs of chronic mechanic founder.

The difference between systemic and mechanical founder has to do with the cause of the change in P3's relationship with the wall: If the initial cause was laminetic dysfunction, then the bone was pulled away from the wall by the deep digital flexor tendon; if the initial cause was mechanical, then the wall was pulled away from the bone by mechanical forces.

hitchinmygetalong

Nov. 13, 2004, 08:33 AM

Tom, that was absolutely the clearest and most understandable post I have ever read on determining past founder episodes.

Thank you.

Erin

Nov. 13, 2004, 09:08 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall CJF:
While horses are prey animals, equipped with the usual instincts for fight/flight, they are incapable of thinking, "Oh my goodness, if I'm laying on the ground, wrapped up like a brogan shoe, then something might eat me." A horse cannot base a behavior on extrapolation. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think what Rusty Stirrup is getting at is that what a horse would experience in being "laid down" is what it would experience in being, say, taken down by a mountain lion.

I never made the connection before, but I am assuming that what makes a horse quiet down when laid down/sat on is the same phenomenon we've all heard about when watching a lion take down a gazelle on the Discovery Channel? Something about the endorphins or somesuch rendering the animal sort of comatose and insensitve to pain as the lion starts to eat it while it's still alive? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

If that's the case, then what someone said earlier about it not having any use as a "training" tool would certainly make sense... I'd think it really would be more similar to drugging the horse. In this case, the drugs (endorphins) are just released naturally rather than being injected.

Dunno... fortunately, I've never had a horse for whom anything like this was necessary!

Tom Stovall CJF

Nov. 13, 2004, 10:39 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Erin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall CJF:
While horses are prey animals, equipped with the usual instincts for fight/flight, they are incapable of thinking, "Oh my goodness, if I'm laying on the ground, wrapped up like a brogan shoe, then something might eat me." A horse cannot base a behavior on extrapolation. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think what Rusty Stirrup is getting at is that what a horse would experience in being "laid down" is what it would experience in being, say, taken down by a mountain lion.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
While it's certainly possible that the experiences are similar, a horse cannot base a non-instinctive behavior on an experience it never had.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
I never made the connection before, but I am assuming that what makes a horse quiet down when laid down/sat on is the same phenomenon we've all heard about when watching a lion take down a gazelle on the Discovery Channel? Something about the endorphins or somesuch rendering the animal sort of comatose and insensitve to pain as the lion starts to eat it while it's still alive? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
IIRC, endorphins regulate pain, appetite, and sex hormones. In humans, they are released during prolonged exercise and cause the "runner's high."
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
If that's the case, then what someone said earlier about it not having any use as a "training" tool would certainly make sense... I'd think it really would be more similar to drugging the horse. In this case, the drugs (endorphins) are just released naturally rather than being injected.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
IME, being tied down is not an experience horse's seek to repeat, so whatever drug is released, it's not habit forming.

Unless there is come compelling reason to tie a horse down, it usually occurs when the horse is forming the habit of having foot tied up (i.e., broke to a sideline or scotch hobble). I consider being broke to a sideline an extremely desirable attribute in ANY horse - I've never owned or had a horse in my care that was not broke to a sideline. Such a horse won't come unspooled when brush, vines, or an errant rope touches its legs and they won't struggle if they get caught in wire. Texas is full of barbed wire, so I figure it's always worth doing.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Dunno... fortunately, I've never had a horse for whom anything like this was necessary!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have.

Please see: http://katyforge.com/tying.htm

I'm not quite as western as a farrier friend of mine who grew up on a Wyoming cow outfit and claims he didn't know you could shoe a horse standing up until he left home. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Erin

Nov. 13, 2004, 10:49 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall CJF:

While it's certainly possible that the experiences are similar, a horse cannot base a non-instinctive behavior on an experience it never had. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't say the horse equated the experience with being eaten, although maybe that's the argument that Rusty Stirrup is making. I am just saying that the experiences are similar and the biological reactions and results appear to also be similar.

And yes, I know what endorphins are... and experience a runner's high on a regular basis. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I am not sure if those are the chemicals that are released in the gazelle/lion scenario or not (I am working off of fuzzy Discovery Channel memories), but it would seem to make sense, as endorphins dull pain, and I assume being eaten by a lion is somewhat painful.

Regardless, my point was merely to comment that I thought the biological processes involved were interesting.

Pocket Pony

Nov. 13, 2004, 06:15 PM

What is "broke to a sideline", and at what part of the horse's training is that done?

Lookout

Nov. 13, 2004, 06:48 PM

Yes, exactly and it's endorphins that are released. It is within all mammals' capacity, has been scientifically studied and demonstrated, and is what allows an animal (incl. human) to not have to suffer the torture of being eaten alive. And while a horse may not think this through in the way a human would - "I'm about to be eaten/die", they certainly are aware of danger and the need to flee, until the endorphins take over.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Erin:
I think what Rusty Stirrup is getting at is that what a horse would experience in being "laid down" is what it would experience in being, say, taken down by a mountain lion.

I never made the connection before, but I am assuming that what makes a horse quiet down when laid down/sat on is the same phenomenon we've all heard about when watching a lion take down a gazelle on the Discovery Channel? Something about the endorphins or somesuch rendering the animal sort of comatose and insensitve to pain as the lion starts to eat it while it's still alive? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

sid

Nov. 13, 2004, 06:55 PM

There are lots of tried and true ways to make a fearful or disobedient horse become compliant and submissive.

Farriers are constantly in a position of becoming hurt if horses are not so. Therefore, it is reasonable to understand why their "way" would be the fastest way to acheive those results.

Farriers and vets don't have the time to mess around with horses that we owners have not taken the time to train properly (i.e. crosstying in a relaxed manner, holding still, LIFTING their legs (not leaning), dealing with the noise of forges, the smell of their burning feet for hot-shoeing, electrical cords all around, clippers etc.).

Vets use rompun. Owners use ace. Texas farriers vote for dropping and tying them.

I know about laying horses down...and I don't want one of mine to have to go through that (btw, it doesn't ALWAYS go as well as it's made out -- I've known about of horses with broken legs and damaged backs from the experience, even with a pro at it).

A aged and well-known "fixer" of problem/rogue horses who I've known for almost 20 years, and for whom I have the deepest respect, will only "drop" a horse as a last ditch effort after trying everything else. He requested my indoor arena because of the "soft landing" in one such case. But he does not recommend it anymore (though 25 years ago that was his way too).

That's why I made a point to spend the time to teach my horses -particularly babies -- all the things necessary to be a pleasure to handle for my vets, farriers and those who may not be "expert" at horse handling. That's our job as horse owners.
Hobbling and sidelining are non traumatic and effective (if done by the right hands!).

It's true, you have a different horse after it's been dropped...but often one that seems to have lost the brightness in its eyes. We've all seen those horses that seem to display a lifeless resignation about their relationship with humans.
They're super obedient, but seem so "hollow".

I'd rather take 3 months, rain or shine, to teach a horse what is required of it and keep that partnership and trust intact, than have it react with the dull, lifeless submission that often results from being dropped and tied.

Just my preference in my life with horses...spirit not broken.

Tom Stovall CJF

Nov. 14, 2004, 06:10 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by sid:
There are lots of tried and true ways to make a fearful or disobedient horse become compliant and submissive.

Farriers are constantly in a position of becoming hurt if horses are not so. Therefore, it is reasonable to understand why their "way" would be the fastest way to acheive those results.

Farriers and vets don't have the time to mess around with horses that we owners have not taken the time to train properly (i.e. crosstying in a relaxed manner, holding still, LIFTING their legs (not leaning), dealing with the noise of forges, the smell of their burning feet for hot-shoeing, electrical cords all around, clippers etc.).

Vets use rompun. Owners use ace. Texas farriers vote for dropping and tying them.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm not the Texas farrier electorate, neither do I claim to be. However, IME, there are times when tying a foot up or a horse down is the ONLY way to get something done that needs being done in a timely manner - and what needs to be done is not always related to farriery.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
I know about laying horses down...and I don't want one of mine to have to go through that (btw, it doesn't ALWAYS go as well as it's made out -- I've known about of horses with broken legs and damaged backs from the experience, even with a pro at it).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Do you have personal knowledge of this? In the process of breaking horses to a sideline, I've seen a bunch of horses lose hide, but I've never seen one that required veterinary attention.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
A aged and well-known "fixer" of problem/rogue horses who I've known for almost 20 years, and for whom I have the deepest respect, will only "drop" a horse as a last ditch effort after trying everything else. He requested my indoor arena because of the "soft landing" in one such case. But he does not recommend it anymore (though 25 years ago that was his way too).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Anyone tying a horse down does so when all other means of mechanical restraint are exhausted, it's not something one does as a matter of course.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
That's why I made a point to spend the time to teach my horses -particularly babies -- all the things necessary to be a pleasure to handle for my vets, farriers and those who may not be "expert" at horse handling. That's our job as horse owners.
Hobbling and sidelining are non traumatic and effective (if done by the right hands!).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I can speak for the farrier community when I say we wish there were more owners like you, owners who accept their responsibility to instill good habits in their horses! But, what goes seamlessly with a baby becomes somewhat of a chore when the horse has a full mouth and a habit with the potential to kill or maim.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
It's true, you have a different horse after it's been dropped...but often one that seems to have lost the brightness in its eyes. We've all seen those horses that seem to display a lifeless resignation about their relationship with humans. They're super obedient, but seem so "hollow".
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
On this point, we'll just have to agree to disagree. As related previously, when I kept practice horses, I either tied a foot up or the horse down every time I worked on their feet - and they bucked just as hard after being tied down.

Note: A "hobble" is any device that restricts movement. It can be anything from a belt-like device that restricts the movement of a horse's front feet to the strap that holds the back girth to the front girth on a double rigged saddle. A "sideline" is a type of hobble in which a rope is used to hold a horse's back foot in a forward position; i.e., under his belly.

hitchinmygetalong

Nov. 14, 2004, 07:26 AM

Tom, have you seen this thread? Perhaps you can lend a hand?

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=6656094911&f=5566064631&m=377203354

JackSprats Mom

Nov. 14, 2004, 05:27 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Tom(CJF), I'm sorry, however, that you felt the need to describe yourslef as old, fat, lazy. Words are a real turn-on to me and I had imagined something way sexier, Cyrano-style. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

I think if we all took the time to truly read Tom's pieces we would see the truth in it. A horse, regardless of its pain, should not be a danger to a person.

Maybe Tom, for those of us so enjoying this thread, you could lie a little and tell us your tall, svelt and handsome? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Tom Stovall CJF

Nov. 14, 2004, 06:18 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by JackSprats Mom:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Tom(CJF), I'm sorry, however, that you felt the need to describe yourslef as old, fat, lazy. Words are a real turn-on to me and I had imagined something way sexier, Cyrano-style. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

I think if we all took the time to truly read Tom's pieces we would see the truth in it. A horse, regardless of its pain, should not be a danger to a person.

Maybe Tom, for those of us so enjoying this thread, you could lie a little and tell us your tall, svelt and handsome? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The federal laws about truth in packaging keep me from saying anything like that, but 30-odd years ago, there was considerably less of me to love.http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://katyforge.com/impress.htm