Blindfolded Bullfighting Horses?

[Appsolute]

Just reading the news this morning and this (http://imgs.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2009/07/08/ba-spain_running_0500355224.jpg) photo caught my eye. The horse (later tipped (http://imgs.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2009/07/08/ba-spain_running_0500355241.jpg)) appears to be blindfolded with his ears taped shut.

A quick google searched reveled that there are two kinds of horseback bullfighting. One uses a highly trained Andalusian horse (the kind we have ooh'ed and ahh'ed on here), and the other uses a heavy, draft type, that is blindfolded and wears heavy pads. Contact with the bull is expected. They "used to" use old nag types, and it was expected that the horse would die in the ring.

I don't even know why I am posting this. Just one more thing that I am surprised exists this day and age. Why can't man leave animals out of his quest to maim and murder?:(

poor horse poor bull (http://www.banbloodsports.com/images/media/bullfight7.jpg)

[Woodland]

That is just disgusting - bull fighting is disgusting - it is not a "sport" it is torture :mad:

[rabicon]

Guess they have to make their thing feel bigger someway. Its horrible and abuse in my eyes.:cry:

[Katie-Nicole]

That just makes me sick. There's nothing culturally relevant about allowing animals to die a horrible death. We should be more sophisticated than that now.

[Lori T]

I should not have looked..I really don't understand certain cultures who enjoy animal cruelty as a sport...whether it be bull fighting, horse tripping, or cock fighting. Yes, I know we have our own assholes in this country, but at least it is illegal and they usually get caught and arrested. I don't understand why governments allow this? Interesting thought, these countries usually tend to treat women poorly as well....

[Brandy76]

And the creepy thing is, these men I guess to this to feel more manly, somehow, like that will make them more attractive to women. And you see how attracted we all are to this?

Isn't there a reason we try to evolve?

Shame on them.

[Nes]

All the bleeding hearts making a big deal over the first form of bullfighiting truely have reason to be upset over this type (which I belive is something a few people tried to explain :|).

[cu.at.x]

I'm afraid to open the links, bullfighting in any form is just disgusting.

[Beverley]

A quick google search isn't going to give you all the facts. But you might just reflect on a question- if the horse is intended to die, why would they bother to outfit it with protective padding?

Also- this is not 'bullfighting on horseback.' This is the picador, whose job it is to lance the bull in the early stages of the 15 minute bullfight. Ultimately the matador finishes off the bull.

I have typically seen these horses blindfolded when I've been to bullfights, I presume to keep 'em from bolting, since they aren't particularly trained for the job. In fact, last one I saw was pretty darned crippled.

But, they ARE padded, and the padding is intended to protect them.

Debate the sport all you want, but please start with fact, not supposition.

[Foxtrot's]

You go and support bullfights ? - Why?

I'm guessing these photos come from Spain - the country that held the WEG. Apalling.

[Posting Trot]

Okay, so as someone who has seen several bullfights (when I was younger and less aware), I'll fill you in on some history.

There is bullfighting from horseback. In this case the matador is actually riding and fights the bull from horseback. The horse is usually beautifully attired (as is the matador) and wears no blindfold or additional padding.

The second horse that you mentioned, with the blindfold and the heavy padding is actually the picador's horse. The picador is a only a bit player in standard bullfighting. More information follows, but not for the faint of heart.

Initially the matador comes into the ring and preliminarily uses the cape to draw the bull and fight it. Then the banderilleros come in. The banderillero places essentially darts (long ones, about 18 inches long) into the back of the bull just behind the neck. The object is to get the bull to lower his head, which is considered more classically beautiful and safer (somewhat) for the matador. Sometimes the matador places the banderillos himself, but usually not.

Then, the picadors come in. They are riding the blindfolded, padded horses. The bull is encouraged to try to gore the horse, which the padding prevents. The picador then "picks" the bull with a long spear, again with the object of making the bull lower his head.

You should know that until the 1920s or 1930s, the picadors' horses did *not* wear padding, and they were routinely killed in the ring by the goring. The padding was a reform that was introduced by the only (as far as I know) top-ranked American bullfighter in Spain--Sydney Franklin, a.k.a. "the bullfighter from Boston."

At any event, after the picador is finished (usually there are two picadors in the ring), the matador returns with a different cape--longer and stiffened at the top by the sword. This final phase of fighting with the cape is considered the real and most classic part of the fight in which the matador *should* get close enough to the bull as the bull passes him that the suit of lights gets covered in the bull's blood. It's not uncommon for the matador to be gored in this phase.

If the bull is truly exceptional, its life is spared and (at least in theory) it is taken back to the farm to be used for stud. This doesn't happen that often (and the decision is made by the acclaim of the crowd), but it does happen.

The matador kills the bull with a sword thrust through the back of the neck; the bull's spine is severed and it goes down and dies quickly. The matador is then awarded one or two ears or two ears and the tail, depending on the crowd's idea of how well he fought the bull.

There you have it. If you're interested, read Ernest Hemingway's Death in the Afternoon.

[Joanne]

Apparently it is an honor if you are a lady and the matador tosses one of the ears to you.

[twofatponies]

Apparently it is an honor if you are a lady and the matador tosses one of the ears to you.

Is it shameful if you duck and shriek when he does? :eek:

[fivehorses]

How on earth does a bull get saved after having 8 18" knives in its neck/back?
Sorry Posting trot, but not the bullfights I saw in Mexico.

I was a 13 year old exchange student visiting a host family, whose son stayed with us for the year. My brothers refused to go, and since he had a sister my age, I was 'forced' to go.

They brought me to a bullfight, I watched at least one if not a few. Anyhow, at that point in my visit, my spanish was fluent, and I became quite upset and angry at the barbaric slow death of the bull. We had to leave because I made a scene...a very vocal, loud scene.
I really didn't care, and I also didn't care that the bull/meat was given to the poor.
Now, for background, my father hunted, and we all when we were younger went on hunts with him. I know we were taught never to allow an animal to suffer, or take a shot we weren't sure of. So, its not like blood and guts and even gutting and skinning a deer, etc was something I hadn't seen.

I still see pictures of this in my mind. The blood and struggling bull, many times stumbling, as the matador goaded him on, to please the sunday afternoon crowds by the bull charging.
There is really nothing pleasant about it. The artistry of the matador...I guess Jack the ripper, and dave bundy all had some form of artist in them too, if you think along those lines.

[Lieslot]

Argggggg, I wished I never even read this.
Now I feel like sobbing for the rest of the night.

Honestly sometimes I wonder why we live. There's just so much cruelty in this world. Maybe it's not such a bad thing after all if the world were to end in 2012 -or whatever date it is- (no I'm not a believer), but seriously I so often wonder what on earth is nice about life on earth. Yes, we manage to save a few (often come by hardship), but so much suffering continues all around us, human & animal suffering, that I so often question why oh why are we brought into this world of misery.

I seldom feel truly happy. I look at my 2 horses and I'm content knowing I try as hard as I can, but I ache knowing there's thousands of suffering animals out there right now, which I can do absolutely nothing about and never will be. I feel like life is always overshadowed with the knowing of stuff like the OP just posted about

I can only :cry:, ..........

[Beverley]

You go and support bullfights ? - Why?

I'm guessing these photos come from Spain - the country that held the WEG. Apalling.


I have been to bullfights. That you translate that as present tense, actively 'going', and supporting, in the absence of any facts, is amusing. Nevertheless- I can't say I wouldn't go to one again, in the future, you just never know what life might throw your way.

What is appalling to me is that most of the posters on this thread have formed an opinion of just how cruel and awful the sport is, when they've never even been to see one- can't even look at the pictures. You are going to be in for a shock when animal rights activists go after you for riding your horse. Will they know what they are talking about? No. Is that going to make your fight to continue enjoying your horse any easier? No.

Equally appalling to me: No doubt, that bull spends the last 15 minutes of his life in some considerable pain and discomfort. How many of us subject our horses to far more than 15 minutes of pain and suffering- days, months, even years- with the help of a veterinarian, using approved veterinary procedures, because we rationalize to ourselves that it'll be okay, we can make the horse better again, so all that pain and suffering will be worth it (yeah, maybe to us, not necessarily to the horse!).

The presence or absence of blood is not an accurate indicator of pain and suffering in an animal.

[Posting Trot]

How on earth does a bull get saved after having 8 18" knives in its neck/back?
Sorry Posting trot, but not the bullfights I saw in Mexico.

[...]
There is really nothing pleasant about it. The artistry of the matador...I guess Jack the ripper, and dave bundy all had some form of artist in them too, if you think along those lines.

I wasn't attempting to justify the sport by any means. I doubt that any circumstances would ever get me to watch a bullfight again. And there's a valid point to be made that for all of the supposed artistry at the most elite levels of bullfighting, there's a lot of butchery at the lower levels. (A lot more deaths and maimings of would-be matadors as well).

I would ask you to think about slaughterhouses and whether you're a vegetarian or grow your own food.

Again, not trying to justify bullfighting, just looking to add context. It's relatively easy to condemn other people's cultures, particularly when it involves no sacrifice on our parts. JMHO.;)

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

I should not have looked..I really don't understand certain cultures who enjoy animal cruelty as a sport...whether it be bull fighting, horse tripping, or cock fighting. Yes, I know we have our own assholes in this country, but at least it is illegal and they usually get caught and arrested. I don't understand why governments allow this? Interesting thought, these countries usually tend to treat women poorly as well....

I am also at a loss. I just don't understand the "sport" involved. I just don't ...get it. At all.

Why does this make someone feel good? Where is the "sport?" What purpose does this serve?

[Daydream Believer]

The presence or absence of blood is not an accurate indicator of pain and suffering in an animal.


:confused::confused::confused::confused: How do you figure that? Isn't' the point of those things in the bulls shoulders is to enrage him with pain and weaken him as he fights? Granted you don't need to draw blood to hurt an animal but surely an animal leaking blood all over the place, cannot be a happy comfortable animal. Stick a few of those things in your shoulders and bleed for a while as you run around being poked and prodded by others and let us know how much fun it is and whether it "hurt" or not. :no::no::no:

The pictures are sickening to me. Neither the bull nor the horses want to be there. Only the people who get some sort of sick pleasure in their suffering do. :(

[Chall]

Portugal doesn't kill its bulls. Do you know how they get the bull out of the ring when it's over? They bring in a cow, and the bull follows her out. :)

And yes, I saw a bull fight when I was six visiting Mexico. I was so mad at my Mom for bringing us kids.

[Donella]

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I should not have looked..I really don't understand certain cultures who enjoy animal cruelty as a sport...whether it be bull fighting, horse tripping, or cock fighting. Yes, I know we have our own assholes in this country, but at least it is illegal and they usually get caught and arrested. I don't understand why governments allow this? Interesting thought, these countries usually tend to treat women poorly as well....

Hi..have you ever been to the Calgary stampede and watched the "wild horse race". Yeah, JUST as bad. And to make matters worse, they now have a child version...it's insane...

Besides, billions of animals are tormented a heck of a lot worse than the animals in the OP simply because we like to eat them. If you ever try to piont this out to people they either don't want to hear about it or deny it because at the end of the day, they like the taste of it. Some people like their "entertainment" and some people like cheap pork when they hit the grocery store. Neither are neccessities and both neccessitate extreme cruelty and torture to animals. Our culture is hardly clean, I think we invented factory farming.

[COTHergrl]

Hi..have you ever been to the Calgary stampede and watched the "wild horse race". Yeah, JUST as bad. And to make matters worse, they now have a child version...it's insane...

Besides, billions of animals are tormented a heck of a lot worse than the animals in the OP simply because we like to eat them. If you ever try to piont this out to people they either don't want to hear about it or deny it because at the end of the day, they like the taste of it. Some people like their "entertainment" and some people like cheap pork when they hit the grocery store. Neither are neccessities and both neccessitate extreme cruelty and torture to animals. Our culture is hardly clean, I think we invented factory farming.

Yay for you!! :) I agree. I opened this thread and thought, here we go. It always amazes me that people can point fingers, and act horrified when they-as you mentioned-happily pick up their cheap pork/turkey/etc. from the grocery store. Some people just don't want to acknowledge the 'cruelty' that exists in their own country-esp when it doesn't appear to be 'cruel'.

[Bluey]

Yay for you!! :) I agree. I actually am vegan, so that usually puts an abrupt end to the 'are you a vegetarian?' arguments when I say pretty much EXACTLY what you've just posted. I opened this thread and thought, here we go. It always amazes me that people can point fingers, and act horrified when they-as you mentioned-happily pick up their cheap pork/turkey/etc. from the grocery store. Some people just don't want to acknowledge the 'cruelty' that exists in their own country-esp when it doesn't appear to be 'cruel'.

So, props to the few people like Donella. Here's a vegan, organic, grows her own stuff, etc. girl to stand with you.


I may not be quite so proud to be a vegetarian/vegan, if you do a little research on it.
This is the last of many studies that show the foolinesh of fads that restrict diets too much, here just one of them:



---"Research Shows Vegetarians have Weak Bones | Thursday, July 09, 2009


What difference does it make if your diet is meat-free? Well for one thing, it means you are likely to have weaker bones than meat-eaters. That's according to a joint Australian-Vietnamese study published the July 2 issue of the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition.

Researcher determined that vegetarians' bone density was 5 percent less than people who include meat in their diets. As for vegans — who eat no animal products whatsoever — had 6 percent weaker bones.

Researchers at Sydney's Garvan Institute for Medical Research and the Pham Ngoc Thach University of Medicine in Ho Chi Minh City, conducted the study, which involved reviewing the dietary and bone density status of more than 2,700 people."---


There is nothing we do that doesn't has consequences.

I still don't see how anyone bragging to be all for animals to the extent some come across here can't see how what they do with their animals, here horses, is objectionable to so many and we are losing the battle, because of those that can't or won't see the big picture.

It is ok to fight true ABUSE where we find it, just be careful to bash indiscriminately our USE of animals, as we are next in line with all our uses of our horses.:(

[JSwan]

Y

So, props to the few people like Donella. Here's a vegan, organic, grows her own stuff, etc. girl to stand with you.


Um - guess how farmers protect their crops?

You may not kill or harm anything in order to be a vegan - but vegetarians and vegans do live off the death of others. Farmers grow the crops you eat but he does protect those crops - using lethal methods. Just because the plant isn't a piece of meat doesn't mean nothing died or suffered.

Let's just stick with the facts about how food gets on the plate, and leave the grandstanding and moralizing to the politicians. None of us holds the moral high ground.

I'm not a fan of bullfighting - but as a young girl I read the biography of El Cordobes. A book called, "Or I'll Dress You in Mourning". One of the finest bios I've ever read - and a real glimpse into the life of the matador and the culture of bullfighting.

[COTHergrl]

Hey Bluey, I was just saying that even some of us who could be considered the 'more radical' animal people-I DO NOT CONSIDER MYSELF AS SUCH, btw-don't want to leap to the conclusion that all forms of bullfighting are atrocious. I was supporting Donatella and don't think the comment on the 'foolishness' of 'fads' was really appropriate for the topic at hand. I definitely don't believe that vegan/vegetarian/big mac/mac n cheese/whatever people are of the 'true path' or that there even IS a 'true path'. I usually really enjoy your posts, and think you make a lot of sense, but please don't assume my diet is the result of a fad or whim. You can understand how that would be a little insulting, right? :)

I removed that section b/c it was detracting from my point. I agree w/ Bluey and JSwan that our use of our horses, etc. is threatened by radical animal rights activists. I don't support that, I don't support moralizing, etc. I *thought* I was adding to Donatella's argument, but guess not! I agree, its a slippery slope. And I really, really don't want the whole thread to derail (as we know COTH threads can get a little dramatic, like the make up thread!). Sorry B. and JS!! Never meant to be offensive, just trying to support common sense.

I may not be quite so proud to be a vegetarian/vegan, if you do a little research on it.
This is the last of many studies that show the foolinesh of fads that restrict diets too much, here just one of them:

[Bluey]

Hey Bluey, I was just saying that even some of us who could be considered the 'more radical' animal people-I DO NOT CONSIDER MYSELF AS SUCH, btw-don't want to leap to the conclusion that all forms of bullfighting are atrocious. I was supporting Donatella and don't think the comment on the 'foolishness' of 'fads' was really appropriate for the topic at hand. I definitely don't believe that vegan/vegetarian/big mac/mac n cheese/whatever people are of the true path. I usually really enjoy your posts, and think you make a lot of sense.

Sorry, that is what my Dr calls it and I thought it appropiated, but I see how it may not be in this context.
When it comes to nutrition, "a little of everything, in moderation" is what he tells his patients.
I did think it was odd that vegetarianism or veganism was brought in the conversation about bullfighting, but I followed along.

I think that bullfights are a hold up from roman circus times.
All cultures have had something like that, where an animal was sacrificed in all kinds of ritualistic ways.
To our sensibilities today, that is archaic and I expect it will die eventually on it's own, or be outlawed.
I think that the kind of horsemanship that evolved from it may still live in more of a demonstration event or even shows for that kind of horseback bullfighting, as we have cutting or working cowhorses going down the fence today, without touching the bull directly.

Regardless of the merit of foot bullfighting, the part with those led apron protected horses harrasing the bull generally doesn't cause direct injury to the horses.
I have not heard of it and have learned not to watch such videos, made with the intent to incense, so can't say what is in there, but it must have been a more rare instance where that happened, like showing an eventer flipping over a jump and getting killed.
Not all do that regularly.:confused:

[Posting Trot]

Hey JSwan, I read that biography of El Cordobes too!

Small world.

[COTHergrl]

Well, I forgot that just saying those words can sometimes get everyone's hair up and give people a mental image of some barefoot flower child, etc. or some string bean HS girl who is just doing it b/c some celebrity is doing it. Not so for everyone. :) But, like I said, I pulled it off and will send you a PM to respond to the study you provided. :cool:

Sorry, that is what my Dr calls it and I thought it appropiated, but I see how it may not be in this context.
When it comes to nutrition, "a little of everything, in moderation" is what he tells his patients.

I did think it was odd that vegerarianism or veganism was brought in the conversation about bullfighting, but I followed along.

I think that bullfights are a hold up from roman circus times.
All cultures have had something like that, where an animal was sacrificed in all kinds of ritualistic ways.
To our sensibilities today, that is archaic and I expect it will die eventually on it's own, or be outlawed.
I think that the kind of horsemanship that evolved from it may still live in more of a demonstration event or even shows for that kind of horseback bullfighting.

Regardless of the merit of foot bullfighting, the part with those led protected horses harrasing the bull generally doesn't cause direct injury to the horses.
I have not heard of it and have learned not to watch such videos, made with the intent to incense, so can't say what is in there, but it must have been a more rare instance where that happened, like showing an eventer flipping over a jump and getting killed.
Not all do that regularly.:confused:

[JSwan]

Hey JSwan, I read that biography of El Cordobes too!

Small world.

REALLY????

Wow - it IS a small world! I've never met anyone who had read that book! I was just a kid when I first read it... maybe 13 years old? But his story, and that book - well - I've just always remembered it. Which is odd because these days I can't remember what I had for breakfast.

Hmm..... I bet I could buy that book on Amazon - methinks it's time to read it again. Folks that have never seen a bullfight or who might want to learn more about the culture and motivations of the people involved - that might be a good read for them. A bit dated - but still a good read.

COTHergrl - no worries. I do have respect for those who have deeply held religious beliefs or espouse a philosophy different than mine. I just get a little frothy when I think someone thinks they're better than someone else. I really need to get over it. :winkgrin:

[Bluey]

Hey JSwan, I read that biography of El Cordobes too!

Small world.

May ought to read that also, if I want to talk about this making any sense, since I know little about it, other than the part of the horseback bullfights and they used to be rather rare, more as an exhibition before the "real" bullfights, for what I heard.

[JSwan]

May ought to read that also, if I want to talk about this making any sense, since I know little about it, other than the part of the horseback bullfights and they used to be rather rare, more as an exhibition before the "real" bullfights, for what I heard.

Bluey - I think you would like that book very much. It is a beautifully written and very compelling biography. It gave me a sense of why bullfighting is such an integral part of their culture.

Whether a person is pro or anti bullfighting - PETA or NRA member - makes no difference. This is a must read if you want to get into the head of a bullfighter.

Yup - checked. Available on Amazon.

[saultgirl]

Do vegans own horses??? I thought they don't eat/use anything animal or made from animals?

[Bluey]

Do vegans own horses??? I thought they don't eat/use anything animal or made from animals?

I would guess it depends why they are vegans.;)

I don't think all vegans are vegans because they are animal rights fanatics, as I was gently reminded.;)
I expect those that are vegans because of not wanting animals used for food, ignoring that is how nature works, would definitely agree that domestic animals need to die off and that includes horses.:(

I agree with all that say that we need not to overreact so quickly and be so defensive with our positions and imagined attacks to them.:o

I will get that book, thanks for the recommendation.:cool:

[Beverley]

:confused::confused::confused::confused: How do you figure that? Isn't' the point of those things in the bulls shoulders is to enrage him with pain and weaken him as he fights? Granted you don't need to draw blood to hurt an animal but surely an animal leaking blood all over the place, cannot be a happy comfortable animal. Stick a few of those things in your shoulders and bleed for a while as you run around being poked and prodded by others and let us know how much fun it is and whether it "hurt" or not. :no::no::no:



'Enrage' with pain? Not really. Bulls get pretty worked up without any help. Weaken and bleed out to make it easier to kill? Yes. In 15 minutes. Compare that to how long a horse might really truly suffer when it starves to death. Or gets overfed and develops laminitis.

I've bled plenty from a variety of pokes, and have the scars to prove it. Nobody said anything about it being fun. But honestly, no, bleeding doesn't particularly hurt.

Big picture though, I fear you have missed my point. People in general are quick to condemn 'bloody' sports- bullfighting and more often, hunting. And they turn a blind eye to the suffering that goes on all around them, that they COULD do something about if they weren't so busy tsk tsking others.

[fivehorses]

I read it too. I think it was required for spanish class in my school. El Cordobes, still probably the most famous of all bullfighters/matadors.

Beverley, you assume that someone who is against something, does not live an authentic life by sitting by while neglect and abuse takes place and does nothing to help. That is a huge assumption.

Personally, I am actively engaged in the areas I feel strongly about. I just don't come on a bb and type away. Regardless, I think attacking someone for speaking up is a non productive method, or rather a productive put down.
Guess I am getting too old to like put downs!

As far as Peta goes, I have heard the arguments that they will eventually take away our rights to ride or own horses. Well, between bullfighting and riding my horses is a long way in eliminating the bad things. Shit, we can't even stop slaughter, how on earth or why on earth should I worry about Peta and horse back riding for pleasure. Silly, silly argument and position to take.
Scare tactic! whhoooo.

[Daydream Believer]

'Enrage' with pain? Not really. Bulls get pretty worked up without any help. Weaken and bleed out to make it easier to kill? Yes. In 15 minutes. Compare that to how long a horse might really truly suffer when it starves to death. Or gets overfed and develops laminitis.

Oh...so because the torture of the animal only lasts 15 minutes, that makes it OK? It's OK to torture it for 15 minutes since someone else might cause an animal to suffer longer by starving it? I don't think that abuse is ever OK regardless of what face it puts on, who does it, how long it lasts, or under what circumstances.

I've bled plenty from a variety of pokes, and have the scars to prove it. Nobody said anything about it being fun. But honestly, no, bleeding doesn't particularly hurt.

Have you been stuck with one of those barbed picador things and then had it hanging there flopping around while you run around and get stuck by more of them in the same general spot? No blood leaking out doesn't "hurt" but the wounds sure do. :confused: BTW....I've been hurt too, had blood leaking out, and it can be very painful. I think it's a bit of a stretch for you to say that a little "poke" you got didn't hurt you thus it's OK to torment an animal in the same manner fore the sake of family entertainment.

Big picture though, I fear you have missed my point. People in general are quick to condemn 'bloody' sports- bullfighting and more often, hunting. And they turn a blind eye to the suffering that goes on all around them, that they COULD do something about if they weren't so busy tsk tsking others.

Actually you do make a huge assumption in making your "point" (pun intended) that just because I'm offended by the torture and killing of animals for entertainment that I'd also condemn hunting? No...I don't...I come from a hunting family and have eaten a lot of venison in my life. I also came from a farming family and we killed our own animals for meat. That is WAY different than a blood sport like bullfighting, dog fighting, or cock fighting where animals suffer and die for the amusement of people.

I also do a fair amount of rescues in horses but I don't get on here and make a lot of noise about it. I just do it. I rescued a gelding about a month ago, paid money to get him out of a bad situation and he's here on my farm right now. I had an email last night about a mare in a bad way that needs help and I'll probably end up getting involved in that one also.

[lesson junkie]

I'm all for not judging other cultures, and trying to live and let live, but what part of that horse lying in the sand getting gored deserves any kind of defense?

[jetsmom]

Oh...so because the torture of the animal only lasts 15 minutes, that makes it OK? It's OK to torture it for 15 minutes since someone else might cause an animal to suffer longer by starving it? I don't think that abuse is ever OK regardless of what face it puts on, who does it, how long it lasts, or under what circumstances.

Great post!!!

Any sport where the animal is intended to die is not a sport, but abuse.

Have you been stuck with one of those barbed picador things and then had it hanging there flopping around while you run around and get stuck by more of them in the same general spot? No blood leaking out doesn't "hurt" but the wounds sure do. :confused: BTW....I've been hurt too, had blood leaking out, and it can be very painful. I think it's a bit of a stretch for you to say that a little "poke" you got didn't hurt you thus it's OK to torment an animal in the same manner fore the sake of family entertainment.



Actually you do make a huge assumption in making your "point" (pun intended) that just because I'm offended by the torture and killing of animals for entertainment that I'd also condemn hunting? No...I don't...I come from a hunting family and have eaten a lot of venison in my life. I also came from a farming family and we killed our own animals for meat. That is WAY different than a blood sport like bullfighting, dog fighting, or cock fighting where animals suffer and die for the amusement of people.

I also do a fair amount of rescues in horses but I don't get on here and make a lot of noise about it. I just do it. I rescued a gelding about a month ago, paid money to get him out of a bad situation and he's here on my farm right now. I had an email last night about a mare in a bad way that needs help and I'll probably end up getting involved in that one also.

Great post!

Any sport where an animal is intended to die is not a sport, but abuse.

[pj]

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I should not have looked..I really don't understand certain cultures who enjoy animal cruelty as a sport...whether it be bull fighting, horse tripping, or cock fighting. Yes, I know we have our own assholes in this country, but at least it is illegal and they usually get caught and arrested. I don't understand why governments allow this? Interesting thought, these countries usually tend to treat women poorly as well....

Hi..have you ever been to the Calgary stampede and watched the "wild horse race". Yeah, JUST as bad. And to make matters worse, they now have a child version...it's insane...

Besides, billions of animals are tormented a heck of a lot worse than the animals in the OP simply because we like to eat them. If you ever try to piont this out to people they either don't want to hear about it or deny it because at the end of the day, they like the taste of it. Some people like their "entertainment" and some people like cheap pork when they hit the grocery store. Neither are neccessities and both neccessitate extreme cruelty and torture to animals. Our culture is hardly clean, I think we invented factory farming.


Soooo this excuses bull fighting?? Kinda reminds me when I'd get on one of my kids about something and she'd say "but whichever other kid she chose that time did so and so or said so and so". Neither excuses the other.
I would never attend a bull fight, dog fight, chicken fight or any other cruel "sport" but IF I did I'd be like the poster who said she caused a scene at the bull fight. I would do ANYTHING I could to disrupt the "fun". ANYTHING.

[Bluey]

I'm all for not judging other cultures, and trying to live and let live, but what part of that horse lying in the sand getting gored deserves any kind of defense?

I think that such was taken out of context, was an accident, that is why they have those led aprons, to protect the horses, that this time didn't.
Just as the eventer that flipped and died, most don't when they jump the same jump that one did.

Whatever is wrong with bullfighting, we need to talk about what is factual and I would say that is not bashing the whole for the rare accident, just as in the previous example of the eventer having an accident.

[carp]

Aimé Tschiffely, who rode from Argentina to New York in the early part of the 20th century, described a bullfight he watched on his journey. He was appalled. The horses were doomed. After the bull gored their bellies open, straw was stuffed into the wound and the skin was sewed shut. Then the unfortunate horse was sent back into the ring to be finished off. He himself was no shrinking violet: he had done some professional fighting, and his intercontinental ride was certainly not for the faint-hearted. However, he felt that the horses in the ring were ill-used in repayment for their service to humans, and it strongly offended his sense of justice. I guess padding is at least a little improvement over what Tschiffely witnessed.

[Posting Trot]

Yes, but again, by the 1920s and early 1930s, the picadors' horses wore full pads. This was a reform instituted because of the appalling injuries to the horses that almost always caused death (see my post above).

[Huntertwo]

Absolutely disgusting what *man* will stoop to in the name of "sport". :mad:



Here is an idea ---- How about blindfolding the Matador and sticking him out there on foot into the bullfighting arena? Now that may be a show I'd attend.

But I guess it is more manly to let the poor horse take the brunt of the fun...

[tkhawk]

from the links someone provided in the last bullfighting thread, it appears the blindfolded , padded horse is a separate event from the mounted bullfighting on regular trained horses.

But on the male thing, there are women bullfighters too.

[Showpony]

With or without padding, I would think a horse getting head butted in the belly by a big bull would have to be uncomfortable at the very least. Not to mention horrifying especially since they can't even see when it's coming to try to get out of the way. At least slaughter in the US there is an attemp to make it humane and fast and regulated. Seems like the point of bull fighting is to torture and torment the bull until he dies for the entertainment of humans.

[Donella]

Sorry , you people can say whatever you want, but animals that are raised and killed by factory farming methods spend all of their entire lives in abject cruelty. If you think that is worth a burger or cheap pork or whatever fine, but don't you dare start blasting other cultures for their inhumanity! (which is the remark that I responded to in the first place).

And no, it doesn't make bullfighting right, it's just that the whole hypocracy of it strikes me as a bit ridiculous. You are either against animal cruelty or you are not wether it takes place behind closed doors to satisfy your palate or in an open stadium to satisfy another person's boredom. Turning a blind eye doesn't make it go away or make it less true. Nor does it negate the suffering of the animal going through the factory system.

And BTW, I never mentioned vegetarianism either..I simply mentioned animals raised in a factory farm setting (which just happens to be where 99 percent of the grocery store meat comes from).

[Bluey]

Sorry , you people can say whatever you want, but animals that are raised and killed by factory farming methods spend all of their entire lives in abject cruelty. If you think that is worth a burger or cheap pork or whatever fine, but don't you dare start blasting other cultures for their inhumanity! (which is the remark that I responded to in the first place).

And no, it doesn't make bullfighting right, it's just that the whole hypocracy of it strikes me as a bit ridiculous. You are either against animal cruelty or you are not wether it takes place behind closed doors to satisfy your palate or in an open stadium to satisfy another person's boredom. Turning a blind eye doesn't make it go away or make it less true. Nor does it negate the suffering of the animal going through the factory system.

And BTW, I never mentioned vegetarianism either..I simply mentioned animals raised in a factory farm setting (which just happens to be where 99 percent of the grocery store meat comes from).

I beg to disagree with you on that last statement.
Beef cattle spent practically all their lives out in pastures.
But, what does that has to do with bullfighting?:confused:

[Donella]

I never claimed cattle were raised in factory farming methods. I am not one for the feedlot concept, but the cattle have it ok for the most part (outside of the shipping where it is LEGAL to ship cattle over 50 hours without food or water) and the dismembering without sedation. At least they get to spend most of their lives in a situation where they get up, turn around, move around, see the light of day and interact with others of their own species (and their offspring). Thank God man has not yet come up with a way to cram an adult cow into a tiny box for the duration of its short life.

The real problem is the rest of the animals (and the veal).

It doesn't have much to do with bullfighting outside of the fact that my original comment was posted in response to the person who condemned other cultures who are cruel to animals. I am simply pointing out that doing so is highly hypocritical, considering most of us eat pork , chicken eggs ect from factory farmed sources.

[tkhawk]

[QUOTE=Showpony;4228638]With or without padding, I would think a horse getting head butted in the belly by a big bull would have to be uncomfortable at the very least. Not to mention horrifying especially since they can't even see when it's coming to try to get out of the way. /QUOTE]

Agree. This piece is just something I will not understnad. I was referring to the the difference between this and the "regular" bullfighting , where horses are not blindfolded and there at least the horse is not supposed to be touched by the bull.

This on the other hand, the horse just stands there and the rider pierces the bull and of course the bull is going to take out its fury on the poor horse-who can't run, can't do anything. Plus the padding doesn't seem to cover the neck-the bull may gore the neck of the horse or as in this picture it seems to be the legs are unprotected-the bull may do some terrible damage to the legs too. I did read (don't know if it is true) that they don't use the Andalusians for this-instead use bigger cold blooded horses-aka disposable ones.

Poor things. It must be horrible. Even if they can't see-it must feel horrible to have a full grown bull head butting you.

OTOH the regular one-while not something I would be too interested in, at least there the horse is free-well under the circumstances. The bull always dies-but that seems to be their culture. Better than the culture I grew up in. There they have an annual running of the bull kind of things. has been happening for two millenia or more. There the bull always lives and goes back home. Humans die-anywhere from 20-30 a year and hundreds get injured. They tie the "prize" to the horns of the bull and the "winner" retrives it. (In the old days that got you a bride-but now men got smarter and find easier ways to woo a woman!!:lol:) The fiercer the bull the more valuable it is. The bull is very rarely injured and never killed. No weapons-just your arms.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzWAitfMvnM

[Bluey]

I never claimed cattle were raised in factory farming methods. I am not one for the feedlot concept, but the cattle have it ok for the most part (outside of the shipping where it is LEGAL to ship cattle over 50 hours without food or water) and the dismembering without sedation. At least they get to spend most of their lives in a situation where they get up, turn around, move around, see the light of day and interact with others of their own species (and their offspring). Thank God man has not yet come up with a way to cram an adult cow into a tiny box for the duration of its short life.

The real problem is the rest of the animals (and the veal).

It doesn't have much to do with bullfighting outside of the fact that my original comment was posted in response to the person who condemned other cultures who are cruel to animals. I am simply pointing out that doing so is highly hypocritical, considering most of us eat pork , chicken eggs ect from factory farmed sources.

I don't know where you are getting your information on cattle management, but it is not quite the way you think it is, really, although this is not the place to explain this further to you.
"Dismembering without sedation"? Reading too many PETA propaganda, maybe?:eek:


In those bullfights, the bulls are not supposed to get to the led apron protected horses, the men have the long spears that they use to keep the bulls away.
The idea is not for the bull to go goring at the horse, but to be stopped by the spears.
The led aprons are for safety If the bull is not stopped.

I think many are talking without knowing what is going on, just guessing and being led along by what I assume may be one more animal rights well edited video, the way this talk is sounding.:no:

[Beverley]

Beverley, you assume that someone who is against something, does not live an authentic life by sitting by while neglect and abuse takes place and does nothing to help. That is a huge assumption.

As far as Peta goes, I have heard the arguments that they will eventually take away our rights to ride or own horses. Well, between bullfighting and riding my horses is a long way in eliminating the bad things. Shit, we can't even stop slaughter, how on earth or why on earth should I worry about Peta and horse back riding for pleasure. Silly, silly argument and position to take. Scare tactic! whhoooo.

Five horses, I made no such assumption. Your reading something that isn't written does not advance your side of a discussion.

Scare tactic- not. If you want to keep your head buried in the sand, so be it.

[Beverley]

1)Oh...so because the torture of the animal only lasts 15 minutes, that makes it OK?

2) Have you been stuck with one of those barbed picador things and then had it hanging there flopping around while you run around and get stuck by more of them in the same general spot? No blood leaking out doesn't "hurt" but the wounds sure do. :confused: BTW....I've been hurt too, had blood leaking out, and it can be very painful. I think it's a bit of a stretch for you to say that a little "poke" you got didn't hurt you thus it's OK to torment an animal in the same manner fore the sake of family entertainment.

3. Actually you do make a huge assumption in making your "point" (pun intended) that just because I'm offended by the torture and killing of animals for entertainment that I'd also condemn hunting?


1. Again, you have missed my point. But I can be as patient as it takes. My point was, all sorts of people are quick to decry the killing of an animal that takes 15 minutes- and turn a blind eye to horses, cats, dogs, all around them that suffer for months to years.

2. Your last sentence in this quoted section is really pretty silly. I think you know very well that I said, and meant, nothing of the sort. YOU go to a bullfight, or any other instance where you think cruelty is occurring, and look, objectively, for yourself. If you rescue horses, then you presumably know that one can tell levels of pain by a number of different indicators, I start with eyes and ears myself.

Yeah. Some wounds that bleed are painful. My point- again- is that some are not. Nothing more than a passing observation. I stand by the statement that people get all worked up about bloody sports- and there is plenty of non-bloody cruelty going on all around them.

3. Please read posts before firing from the hip, makes for far more pleasant and productive discussions. I made NO assumptions about 'you.' The statement you take offense at is nothing more than a general, TRUE statement about today's society.