• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Spinoff: What Breed was the Most Aggressive Dog You've Ever Met?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Yes, telling a dog to get down is what you'd do with a trained dog that respected you. That's how it's supposed to work!

    She was taking care of the dog (Boston terrier), I'm not surprised she wanted the dog to show some manners.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by grayarabpony View Post
      Not false at all. You just don't know any better and are making a sweeping generalization based on false assumptions. Growling and snapping IS a way for a dog to put you in your place. Not acceptable in my house. So I TRAIN the dog, and that begins with the dog respecting me, not just getting a treat.
      text in red mine.

      They either stuff the dog full of treats or suggest euthanasia.
      wait! That was a sweeping generalization! Oh noes!

      Perhaps there really isn't much hope for aggressive dogs, but the current methods certainly don't seem to be any better than the old ones. I dunno, I haven't dealt with an aggressive dog because our family always nipped that sort of behavior in the bud.
      of course you did. and that fixed it byGawd!

      My dog got off the couch because I said so. lol Sometimes the dog just has to do what you say, whether they want to or not, just like kids and horses. Guess what she loved me to pieces.
      I had a client once, who had a rescued dog. Had you used this on him, you would have been missing a nose and perhaps all or most of the skin on your face. He was a very self confident dog who had learned how to use his mouth and wasn't afraid of being punished. However, if you asked him politely, and you were clear about what you wanted, he would do it. This dog was faster, bigger than I was and I value my face far too much to have argued with him. He was actually quite a nice dog, once he understood what you wanted, but had you forced him...you would have lost.

      The funniest thing about this is that people are criticizing something that worked. The dog didn't growl at her again and didn't bite her either.
      I'm glad for her. But I think she was lucky, it was a Boston and not this dog I knew.

      Comment


      • What is the redeeming value in a dog that will rip your face off?

        Isn't this the thread where we're talking about breeding for temperment?
        “Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.” Stephen R. Covey

        Comment


        • Originally posted by cowboymom View Post
          What is the redeeming value in a dog that will rip your face off?

          Isn't this the thread where we're talking about breeding for temperment?
          Personally? I didn't care for the dog, but he wasn't mine and the owner(s) felt he was worth saving. He was a client and I was being paid to help them.

          Comment


          • I may be too late for the actual aggressive dog portion of this, but working at a vet clinic the worst dog I ever encountered was a wolf hybrid. Extremely beautiful, big white boy that was abandoned during boarding and eventually had to be PTS. He could not be handled except with a catch pole and gave zero warning about attacking. He'd even launch himself at the kennel door. I'm sure his issues could largely be attributed to upbringing.

            The worst, and only scary dog I've ever encountered in a home situation, was a duck tolling retriever/lab mix that belonged to friends of ours. She was completely untrustworthy, and always had this look in her eyes like she was just waiting for an opportunity to bite you. I'd swear she was calculating the whole time. She bit both of her owners on multiple occasions and bit both DH and I twice, always very aggressive sneak attacks with zero provocation. She would actually seek you out to bite.

            They finally had her PTS when she bit their infant.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by threedogpack View Post
              Personally? I didn't care for the dog, but he wasn't mine and the owner(s) felt he was worth saving. He was a client and I was being paid to help them.
              I wondered what his redeeming feature was? Was he cute? I just wonder what a dog can do or be that makes it worth risking someone getting their face ripped off. Strange priorities in people sometimes.
              “Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.” Stephen R. Covey

              Comment


              • Originally posted by cowboymom View Post
                I wondered what his redeeming feature was? Was he cute? I just wonder what a dog can do or be that makes it worth risking someone getting their face ripped off. Strange priorities in people sometimes.
                I think she felt sorry for him (rescue), and he was not aggressive to her. Just to strangers (which is why the post about the Boston brought the memory to the surface).

                I don't understand people who keep aggressive dogs, they are such a liability. I would hate to have a first responder not get to me in time, because a dog was standing between me and them.

                Comment


                • With respect to dog training and punishment of a growling dog not wanting to move off his space... (and no, I do not claim to be an expert, btw)

                  Wouldn't a useful question be what would the boss dog do? When we had multiple canines in one house of varying ages, I happen to know that the old lady, may she RIP, bit the ear of an disrespectful puppy and chewed his butt vocally and w/ strong body language that he.will.treat.her.respectfully. There were no long lasting repercussions. It was over and down in 10 seconds. And he didn't cross the line again for at least a few weeks...

                  I've seen a momma cat tolerate the kitten chewing on her - until he bit down too hard and then she nailed him. Over and done. Kitten got the message.

                  Momma horse hit her nursing baby so hard in the butt w/ her mouth that he bounced. He was nursing very roughly. He got the message.

                  Perhaps don't we over analyze too much... make corrections too long, drawn out and difficult for a dog/cat/horse to relate the mistake w/ the correction?

                  And one more thought - isn't there a big difference using positive reinforcement to train a dog to do wanted behavior and a strong correction to instill respectful behavior in a herd/pack animal?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by millerra View Post
                    Wouldn't a useful question be what would the boss dog do?
                    no. I'm not a dog, and cannot do what dogs do to each other.

                    Perhaps don't we over analyze too much... make corrections too long, drawn out and difficult for a dog/cat/horse to relate the mistake w/ the correction?
                    you must analyze the situation you find yourself in. Dogs are faster and stronger than we are, they can get a bite in before you know it.

                    Just like good horse trainers, good dog trainers don't even let it get to that point, but if they acquire a dog who has the behavior in place, they will try to prevent it before they use confrontational responses. A trainer can do no dog or person any good if their hand/arm has been permanently damaged by a bite.

                    And one more thought - isn't there a big difference using positive reinforcement to train a dog to do wanted behavior and a strong correction to instill respectful behavior in a herd/pack animal?
                    you totally lost me with this. There is a correlation to using +R to train an incompatible response, but punishment by definition reduces behavior.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by threedogpack View Post
                      you totally lost me with this. There is a correlation to using +R to train an incompatible response, but punishment by definition reduces behavior.
                      I was thinking of two different scenarios.

                      I want my dog to "shake". In this case I wouldn't punish the dog for not shaking (lifting his leg). I would praise, give rewards, etc when ever the dog started to lift his leg in the shaking motion so that he learns that's what's wanted. To little ol' amateur me it's amazing how fast dogs learn stuff like this.

                      Scenario 2 - dog growls at me for moving his toy off the couch. Dog gets immediately growled at scolded/chewed out/moved out of his local, what ever for daring to growl at me. And you are correct, I do not and will not tolerate a dog growling at me. If that's the dogs temperament, he will not be living in my house. Having raised dogs from puppies, this has never been an issue yet, by the way. they learn their place - and it's below even the littlest of humans. Again, period.

                      And I think saying you can't do what a dog does to another dog a bit obtuse, no? Clearly you can make your opinion of the dog's behavior well known to the dog... in a way the dog understands.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by millerra View Post
                        I was thinking of two different scenarios.

                        I want my dog to "shake". In this case I wouldn't punish the dog for not shaking (lifting his leg). I would praise, give rewards, etc when ever the dog started to lift his leg in the shaking motion so that he learns that's what's wanted. To little ol' amateur me it's amazing how fast dogs learn stuff like this.

                        Scenario 2 - dog growls at me for moving his toy off the couch. Dog gets immediately growled at scolded/chewed out/moved out of his local, what ever for daring to growl at me.
                        this assumes your timing is impeccable and that the dog will know what s/he is being scolded/chewedout/moved out of his local for.

                        Here is a real life example. I put in an underground fence. I had 5 dogs. 4 of the dogs figured it out correctly, but dog #5, got shocked 2x. By the second time, when I brought her collar and lead out, she ran away, as HER association was that the lead with her flat buckle collar was what did it.

                        Because you don't always know what the association is, it is much easier to put a positive behavior in place that is incompatible with the aggression instead of punishing the aggressive behavior.

                        And you are correct, I do not and will not tolerate a dog growling at me. If that's the dogs temperament, he will not be living in my house.
                        to each his own. I don't consider growling to be anything other than communication. I live with 6 dogs, none of which have aggressed toward me but most of whom have growled for various reasons.

                        And I think saying you can't do what a dog does to another dog a bit obtuse, no? Clearly you can make your opinion of the dog's behavior well known to the dog... in a way the dog understands.
                        ummmm, we are talking apples and oranges I think. I can make what I want clear to the dog without behaving like a dog. I'm not about to bite a dog, or snarl like a dog or sniff a butt like a dog does. Of course it's very clear to me that I'm not a dog so.....

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by threedogpack View Post
                          this assumes your timing is impeccable and that the dog will know what s/he is being scolded/chewedout/moved out of his local for.

                          Here is a real life example. I put in an underground fence. I had 5 dogs. 4 of the dogs figured it out correctly, but dog #5, got shocked 2x. By the second time, when I brought her collar and lead out, she ran away, as HER association was that the lead with her flat buckle collar was what did it.

                          Because you don't always know what the association is, it is much easier to put a positive behavior in place that is incompatible with the aggression instead of punishing the aggressive behavior.



                          to each his own. I don't consider growling to be anything other than communication. I live with 6 dogs, none of which have aggressed toward me but most of whom have growled for various reasons.



                          ummmm, we are talking apples and oranges I think. I can make what I want clear to the dog without behaving like a dog. I'm not about to bite a dog, or snarl like a dog or sniff a butt like a dog does. Of course it's very clear to me that I'm not a dog so.....
                          This!

                          Great observations! Thanks for posting this. I get weary!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by millerra View Post
                            I was thinking of two different scenarios.


                            Scenario 2 - dog growls at me for moving his toy off the couch. Dog gets immediately growled at scolded/chewed out/moved out of his local, what ever for daring to growl at me. And you are correct, I do not and will not tolerate a dog growling at me. If that's the dogs temperament, he will not be living in my house. Having raised dogs from puppies, this has never been an issue yet, by the way. they learn their place - and it's below even the littlest of humans. Again, period.
                            This is how my household runs--spank! spank! LOL! Actually, I just use my voice for correction. But I strongly feel you must begin at puppyhood and cannot change the rules. Having a balanced animal means being a balanced leader.
                            I LOVE my Chickens!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by threedogpack View Post
                              text in red mine.



                              wait! That was a sweeping generalization! Oh noes!



                              of course you did. and that fixed it byGawd!



                              I had a client once, who had a rescued dog. Had you used this on him, you would have been missing a nose and perhaps all or most of the skin on your face. He was a very self confident dog who had learned how to use his mouth and wasn't afraid of being punished. However, if you asked him politely, and you were clear about what you wanted, he would do it. This dog was faster, bigger than I was and I value my face far too much to have argued with him. He was actually quite a nice dog, once he understood what you wanted, but had you forced him...you would have lost.



                              I'm glad for her. But I think she was lucky, it was a Boston and not this dog I knew.
                              Touched a nerve, didn't I? Your whole post above is a sweeping generalization, and took one of my sentences out of context. Not all dogs are the same, and the dog you describe is unusual in his level of aggression. NOT the sort of dog I'm talking about, which is your average dog who has gotten a peg above himself.

                              Sorry, Houndhill, that you are getting weary. But this whole ignore bad behavior/ just praise good behavior can make it a little hard for the animal to learn what you want and can be very impractical sometimes.

                              Plus, few people punish a healthy dog just for growling. Usually that behavior is accompanied by some other behavior, like guarding something or not moving. By God if I need to pick up a dog's food bowl I don't want to have to worry about the dog's reaction. The dog just needs to know he will be fed. A very easy thing to teach a dog. Doesn't involve any punishment either.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by grayarabpony View Post
                                And here I was trying to be all politically correct by not using the dreaded "p" word. Really, they are not that different.

                                Using punishment as a training tool isn't THAT difficult. It doesn't have to be used often either, but can be the best approach in certain situations.
                                You can use punishment or reinforcement, either positively or negatively, to teach just about anything. Some just work better in certain circumstances and for certain animals. There really isn't anything "right" or "wrong" about any of them so long as you are not inhumane. "Punishment" doesn't have to mean pain or bullying.

                                Reinforcement is any event that strengthens or increases the behavior it follows. There are two kinds of reinforcers:

                                Positive reinforcers and Negative reinforcers

                                In both of these cases of reinforcement, the behavior increases.

                                Punishment, on the other hand, is the presentation of an adverse event or outcome that causes a decrease in the behavior it follows. There are two kinds of punishment:

                                Positive punishment, and Negative punishment

                                In both of these cases of punishment, the behavior decreases.


                                (excepts from: http://psychology.about.com/od/behav...ntroopcond.htm)

                                In general, however, I would not think that positive punishment would be the best application for growling only because it is the one that is probably most likely to get you bitten by a dog that is already angry. But it certainly would make a difference depending on WHY the dog is growling.

                                Comment


                                • Remember that the Boston terrier described earlier didn't just growl, but also tried to bite (snapped at the babysitter).

                                  Really, that dog has no right to be angry. It was just being disrespectful.

                                  The babysitter dealt with the dog in a direct way that was humane. The dog learned his lesson.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by grayarabpony View Post
                                    Remember that the Boston terrier described earlier didn't just growl, but also tried to bite (snapped at the babysitter).

                                    Really, that dog has no right to be angry. It was just being disrespectful.

                                    The babysitter dealt with the dog in a direct way that was humane. The dog learned his lesson.
                                    Meh....it's not really a situation of training either way - reinforcement or punishment. It's just one incident.

                                    Why was the dog growling and snapping? Who knows. Could have been in pain, could have been resource guarding, might have been something else.

                                    The person who spanked the dog might have "trained" it not to growl/snap at him/her, or just frightened the dog enough that it kept its distance.

                                    Reinforcement or punishment as training aid need to be used more than once, with some sort of command and a specific goal in mind. Not saying I wouldn't have considered giving the dog a swat or a swift kick if it tried to bite me, but I wouldn't assume my single action actually trained the dog in any way, for good or for bad.

                                    It could just have easily "trained" the dog to growl at the babysitter every time he/she came to the house; but if so, we probably wouldn't look back on it as an effective training session.

                                    Incidentally, I had this same situation as a babysitter and ended up just leaving the dog where it was, but telling the owners when they came home (new dog from the shelter). They ended up rehoming the dog.

                                    Comment


                                    • An animal certainly can learn a lesson from a one time incident.

                                      We can imagine all sorts of scenarios as to why the dog growled and snapped, but I prefer to go with the one that the babysitter described, that the dog didn't want to give up its space or move, since that's what she wrote and it makes sense.

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by millerra View Post
                                        I was thinking of two different scenarios.

                                        I want my dog to "shake". In this case I wouldn't punish the dog for not shaking (lifting his leg). I would praise, give rewards, etc when ever the dog started to lift his leg in the shaking motion so that he learns that's what's wanted. To little ol' amateur me it's amazing how fast dogs learn stuff like this.

                                        Scenario 2 - dog growls at me for moving his toy off the couch. Dog gets immediately growled at scolded/chewed out/moved out of his local, what ever for daring to growl at me. And you are correct, I do not and will not tolerate a dog growling at me. If that's the dogs temperament, he will not be living in my house. Having raised dogs from puppies, this has never been an issue yet, by the way. they learn their place - and it's below even the littlest of humans. Again, period.

                                        And I think saying you can't do what a dog does to another dog a bit obtuse, no? Clearly you can make your opinion of the dog's behavior well known to the dog... in a way the dog understands.
                                        I think a dog can understand what you're saying but some humans can't. lol

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by grayarabpony View Post
                                          Touched a nerve, didn't I?
                                          no, I was just being mean and making fun of you.

                                          Your whole post above is a sweeping generalization, and took one of my sentences out of context.
                                          GAB, you were the one who dissed sweeping generalizations before making one....not me. I make generalizations all the time.

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X