• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Pallitive care, is it worth it?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #41
    WAIT!!!!! I hate to criticize your vet but your dog is getting virtually no analgesia. Tramadol is more an SSRI than an opiod. In fact, it's potency is 1/20,000 that of morphine. To do ANY good for pain it should be given 4x a day at 10mg/kg. Gabapentin is a nice drug but by itself also useless. Fosamax is used for osteoporosis in people yet is implicated in bone fractures and mandibular necrosis. We do not know how it works in dogs and the oncologists I know do not recommend it.
    I have a 135# Rottie osteosarc patient that we have managed medically. I would have loved to have been able to give palliative radiation but owners opted not to. He is on Hydrocodone/acetaminophen (APAP) 10mg/325mg. Calculated safe APAP dose is 15mg/kg 3x a day. We started him on 2 tablets 3 times a day, 300mg gabapentin 3x aday, 20mg prednisone twice a day now down to once a day, although pred not my choice but owners. I usually use meloxicam because it is so cheap. Bone cancer dogs NEED a true Mu Opiod. Oral oxycodone and morphine are not bioavailable. Hydrocodone is. So is hydromorphone and the owners keep 4mg tablets on hand if he seems very painful. He was "supposed" to be dead 9 months ago but he is eating and drinking and mobile and pretty much pain free. When we got to the point that he needed more opiod, I cut the hydro/APAP combo to twice a day and gave 4mg hydromorphone for his midday narcotic. We have ramped up the gabapentin to 600mg 3x a day and will go higher if needed.
    My point is, you don't have to spend a fortune using medications that may very well make your dog miserable (although I do think palliative radiation a good idea if you can afford it). You can adequately manage even cancer pain if you take a multimodal approach and don't be afraid to use narcotics. If your vet is hesitant please ask him or her to go on VIN and contact Dave Thompson and Dick Headley in the analgesia forum for advice. There is absolutely no reason for your or any bone cancer dog to suffer needlessly because no one is willing to use these medications. You can keep him happy, functional and NOT doped up with very inexpensive medications. Before you consider esoteric therapy or, God Forbid, euthanasia, at least look into proper pain management. If he's in a lot of pain you may need to hospitalize him for 3 days of continuous rate infusion of morphine and ketamine but once that gets the pain under control, you need to stay AHEAD of it with oral meds. Good luck with this

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #42
      Thank you for the very informative post jkc313. I don't know if it is where we live or what, but vets around here just won't perscribe narcotics. They say if dog is that bad euth is best.
      I managed to scrape together the $ for the pallitive radiation, and I found a vet. oncologist who is close by and can save me a good bit on the Pamindranate, so she is getting that too. Fingers and toes crossed that she will respond well to these treatments.
      Thnaks again to all for the much needed support.

      Comment


      • #43
        The bases have been covered as far as options. So I just wanted to send some jingles.
        A good horseman doesn't have to tell anyone...the horse already knows.

        Might be a reason, never an excuse...

        Comment


        • #44
          I have been dealing with a horse with RARE cancer of mandibular. We approached it from a palliative care point with radiation & chemo 20 months ago. Guess what? She received a check up with super results yesterday. She is actually now overweight. Miracles do happen. Go to a Vet School near you. they will have the latest research. I swear by Texas A & M, but know there are other good schools out there. In the end, only you can make that decision. Good luck

          Comment


          • #45
            Our horse went through tomotherapy radiation. First in the world to experience that and her tumor has not grown. Since you are in the onco field, I figured this would be of interest to you.

            Comment


            • #46
              I just found out today that my five and a half year old Great Dane has osteosarcoma. He was already on Deramaxx, but they upped the amount we are to give him. They also prescribed him Hydrocodone to keep him comfortable. His appetite has been awful lately and we pretty much have been forcing him to eat just a little bit. I know what the right thing to do is. My heart is absolutely breaking and I'm dreading making the call, but I can't stand to see him in this much pain, no matter how excited he gets when I come home from work.

              I'm sorry you are in a tough situation. I hope the decision comes to you as easily as it has to me.
              http://www.youtube.com/user/NBChoice http://nbchoice.blogspot.com/
              The New Banner's Choice- 1994 ASB Mare
              Dennis The Menace Too- 1999 ASB Gelding
              Dreamacres Sublime- 2008 ASB Gelding

              Comment


              • #47
                Originally posted by SquishTheBunny View Post
                Compared to conventional radiation therapy, the precision of CyberKnife radiosurgery allows higher doses of radiation to be delivered to the tumor while minimizing damage to healthy tissue. One to three treatments are the same as 15 to 20 treatments of conventional radiation. The benefits include fewer hospital visits, fewer anesthetic episodes and reduced stress. Treatment is based on how much bone destruction has occurred

                The procedure currently is available on a limited basis. Besides the Animal Specialty Clinic in New York, radiosurgery is performed at clinics in California, Colorado and Florida.
                I had stereotactic radiosurgery done on my 10 year old corgi (glioma brain tumor)at the University of Florida at Gainesville this past March. We had our prep appointment on a Monday (CT scan, they could use the MRI scan from NC State thank goodness) and the radiation (single dose) on the Friday. They need a couple of days for planning. So anyone who goes, plan on being there a week and it is not cheap for sure.

                My corgi, however, is doing quite well. *cross fingers*. A lot of his symptoms have either disappeared completely or have been greatly reduced, his quality of life has been great -- I think he's more energetic than my 4 year old corgi! I also have him on some holistic and natural supplements that I think are also contributing to his success. I know it won't last forever, just taking it one day at a time.

                You might want to look into acupuncture for pain relief. I also have been doing that with him, I think it helps too.

                Comment


                • #48
                  Thank you for this...

                  I just joined this group specifically to say thanks for this thread. I, too, have an older dog with terminal cancer. My boxer, Ginger, is 11 and has malignant mast cell tumors. In the last week, she has gone downhill: not eating as much, not running, losing weight, bloody urine and, of course, the tumors continue to grow in spite of prednisone. I have a vet appointment tomorrow evening and was struggling with the fact that she still does look up and wag her stub. On the other hand, she has no comprehension of why she doesn't feel good and why life is not much fun.

                  Ginger belonged to my husband, who passed away in 2011, so she is extra-special in my and my dd's hearts. I am devastated and was questioning my decision because I simply cannot watch her deteriorate. You folks have made me feel that this is the right decision. Thanks again.

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #49
                    iberianfan, so sorry about your boxer, Baby Girl was my Dad's dog, so I totally understand how our pets can be a link to the people we have lost.
                    Have you checked out this web site www.dogcancervet.com Dr Dressler has several youtube presentations, one on feeding dogs with cancer, and the one on knowing when to let go really helped me.
                    Mechach, so glad for your good outcome so far- It's good to hear.
                    NBChoice- Your Dane sounds alot like Baby Girl a couple weeks ago. She's had two radiation treatments and one dose of Pamidranate and her pain is much better. If that is an option in your area I can say that it does help.

                    I am not an expert or vet but I think it is possible that your dogs that won't eat may have ulcers from the stress and pain. Babe's appetite improved dramatically after being on omeprazole(Prilosec).

                    Hope I have helped Y'all as much as others have helped me.

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #50
                      Babe is hanging in there, her radiation was done last week. Funny thing, I was told that the hair on her leg would fall off and a bad 'sun' burn would occur, to be followed by a little oozing and cracking of the skin. So far..nothing

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Sometimes the hair fall off after a week or so- sometimes it turns white, sometimes nothing. Glad to hear your pup is doing well!!! Radiation scares a lot of people, but Im assuming your dog had very few, if any, ill effects from it?

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #52
                          Hi Sqish, So far, still no ill effects, but she had one treatment on a monday and should have had the second the next day, but the machine was broken. We had to wait almost a week for the second treatment and the vet seemed pretty certain that she would have the burn/weeping sore, within a week. Do you think the machine could still be broken?

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Originally posted by iberianfan View Post
                            I just joined this group specifically to say thanks for this thread. I, too, have an older dog with terminal cancer. My boxer, Ginger, is 11 and has malignant mast cell tumors. In the last week, she has gone downhill: not eating as much, not running, losing weight, bloody urine and, of course, the tumors continue to grow in spite of prednisone. I have a vet appointment tomorrow evening and was struggling with the fact that she still does look up and wag her stub. On the other hand, she has no comprehension of why she doesn't feel good and why life is not much fun.

                            Ginger belonged to my husband, who passed away in 2011, so she is extra-special in my and my dd's hearts. I am devastated and was questioning my decision because I simply cannot watch her deteriorate. You folks have made me feel that this is the right decision. Thanks again.
                            Iberianfan, I don't know if your dog is still with you or not, but there is a drug for mast cell disease in dogs called Palladia. You might discuss it with your vet. Sorry to hear of your troubles
                            As Peter, Paul, and Mary say, a dragon lives forever.

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #54
                              The hair still has not fallen out on Babe's leg. I am really wondering if the radiation was done right?! Anyone else have this result?

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Originally posted by csaper58 View Post
                                The hair still has not fallen out on Babe's leg. I am really wondering if the radiation was done right?! Anyone else have this result?
                                The only way you can get that answer is to talk to the veterinarian who worked on your dog. They can explain what you are seeing.
                                As Peter, Paul, and Mary say, a dragon lives forever.

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  We have had patients that the hair has not fallen out. Primarily dogs with a shorter dense coat (mastiff's, dobes, rotties). But yes, I would call your vet who did the radiation therapy and ask their opinion. I would be surprised if they say all patients lose their fur. "Hair" dogs such as poodles/bichons etc. are more susceptible to changes from chemo and radiation than "fur" dogs.

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #57
                                    Baby Girl has had her second Pamidrinate treatment, and is doing well. She still has a limp, but seems much more comfortable and her leg has begun to show signs of the radiation treatment. Thank you again for all the advice and support

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Continuing to follow this thread, grateful to this forum for the many different kinds of help it provides and adding my jingles to everyone facing these difficult decisions. It's less than a year since I lost my beloved GSP to osteosarcoma, and I am amazed by the numerous therapies/treatments which seem to have become available in just those few months and with such good promise for improving the prospects for our animals.

                                      In both human and veterinary medicine, I have been glad to see increasing emphasis on palliative care. E.g., a few days ago, I heard an interview with a Dr. who switched her specialty from Emergency to Palliative medicine, who said she's embarrassed to remember saying "there's nothing more I can do," to terminal patients and their family members, having learned that there are, in fact, countless things that can be done to improve patients' quality of life to the very end.

                                      So glad that Baby Girl is feeling better
                                      http://www.tunnelsendfarm.com

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        #59
                                        /\ True Dat!!! Thanks Fish.

                                        Comment

                                        • Original Poster

                                          #60
                                          Baby Girl is doing well. We have been able to reduce her pain meds, and she is much more alert, even barking at the door bell again.

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X