• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Are Rescues creating an "easy out"

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #21
    At what point does a breeder need a license?
    In our county, you need a kennel license if you have more than three dogs on your property. Period. Breeding, not breeding, temporary, permanent.

    If by-law comes by in response to a complain about extra dogs, and you can't PROVE that the additional dog belongs to someone else and is not residing with you (ie: wandered in, TODAY) you pay the fine for being an unlicensed kennel.

    I like this, it gives you a really good basis for Animal Control action when you have a neighbor who is a terrible animal owner and is collecting dogs.

    Since our AC works primarily on complaints...I am sure there are plenty of people in the county who have unlicensed kennels, but IMO, I don't really care if I can't tell that they have multiple animals on the property. In this way "good" owners are not necessarily victimized. And most responsible kennel (boarding AND breeding) get licenses. If you made licenses harder to get, then enforcement would have to become a lot more important...because more people would risk being unlicensed. For a while. Until the fines came down.
    Lifestyle coordinator for Zora, Spooky, Wolfgang and Warrior

    Comment


    • #22
      Originally posted by rugbygirl View Post
      In our county, you need a kennel license if you have more than three dogs on your property. Period. Breeding, not breeding, temporary, permanent.
      This is a horrible law. Good owners most certainly are victimized.

      Comment


      • #23
        As for the OP's title, I don't think rescues are an "easy out," but I abhor "rescues" who import dogs from other areas, who charge exorbitant fees ("But we need veterinary care!" Then you find out that all the vets donate their time and often the supplies/meds as well), and who are in reality puppy mills themselves.

        Comment


        • #24
          Originally posted by BLBGP View Post
          Legislation could definitely help. Too bad the AKC fights any attempts like crazy.

          http://t.today.com/news/akc-register...mber_242126060
          h well, since the HSUS is aiming to shut all breeders down, do you expect the AKC to take this laying down?

          It's an old hat, concocting requirements that look good on paper, with puppy mills in mind, but slam the small breeders who produce the quality animals.

          it's an old hat, older than my presence on the net!
          Originally posted by BigMama1
          Facts don't have versions. If they do, they are opinions
          GNU Terry Prachett

          Comment


          • #25
            This is a horrible law. Good owners most certainly are victimized.
            How? I honestly wonder.

            The vast majority of dog owners in the county are pet owners. How many pet dogs do you need on a single private property?
            Lifestyle coordinator for Zora, Spooky, Wolfgang and Warrior

            Comment


            • #26
              Originally posted by rugbygirl View Post
              How? I honestly wonder.

              The vast majority of dog owners in the county are pet owners. How many pet dogs do you need on a single private property?
              it depends on how it's worded.

              However, the HSUS intend is not to eliminate puppy mills. They make a good fund raising opportunity.

              I didn't look into the laws back in the day, but in essence the laws would put requirements on the small scale breeder that required huge investment for equipment and facilities they would not need nor ever use.

              it's kind of the thing, how do you tell a good breeder from a not so good one:

              The good breeder has a kenenl prefix, but seldom a kennel, while the other one has the kennels, but no kennel name.....

              You just don't let the 'one generation and out' Vegan crowd legislate animal husbandry! You might as well train a fox to herd your chickens
              Originally posted by BigMama1
              Facts don't have versions. If they do, they are opinions
              GNU Terry Prachett

              Comment


              • #27
                You just don't let the 'one generation and out' Vegan crowd legislate animal husbandry! You might as well train a fox to herd your chickens
                Oh, I am in agreement there.

                I just don't think that the Kennel Clubs/Dog Show Organizations should be allowed to dictate either. Both parties are too extremist for my taste. Before someone else leaps down my throat though, no, I don't know exactly how to solve the issue...but I don't agree that the AKC is 100% in the right, and I want to illustrate that they do not share priorities with the vast majority of the pet-dog owning public, in my experience.
                Lifestyle coordinator for Zora, Spooky, Wolfgang and Warrior

                Comment


                • #28
                  Originally posted by rugbygirl View Post
                  Oh, I am in agreement there.

                  I just don't think that the Kennel Clubs/Dog Show Organizations should be allowed to dictate either. Both parties are too extremist for my taste. Before someone else leaps down my throat though, no, I don't know exactly how to solve the issue...but I don't agree that the AKC is 100% in the right, and I want to illustrate that they do not share priorities with the vast majority of the pet-dog owning public, in my experience.
                  well, see, that is the wrong argument.

                  They don't dictate one bit. they keep records, they do not mandate you keep your dogs on the couch.

                  In this instance they are 100% in the right. Because the welfare of the dogs is not the subject, but the straw man!
                  The AKC published educational material and such to provide owners with knowledge. They don't require it. But they offer. And you do not have to have a pure bred, and they have changed a lot of things around for owners of mutts with competitive streaks.
                  Originally posted by BigMama1
                  Facts don't have versions. If they do, they are opinions
                  GNU Terry Prachett

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    I think the trick is targeting consumers. We're capitalists and we vote with our dollars. We need some kind of campaign around identifying puppy mill puppies. It seems obvious to most of the people who would post on here, but to much of America it isn't. I wonder if there is an opportunity for SPCA or Humane Society to sponsor an ad campaign around recognizing puppy mills and avoiding. If people stop giving them money they will get out of the business real fast.

                    And I know this is not a total solution: it doesn't address the very real fact that there ARE puppy mill puppies who still deserve great homes. How can we solve both problems simultaneously?
                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      And I know this is not a total solution: it doesn't address the very real fact that there ARE puppy mill puppies who still deserve great homes. How can we solve both problems simultaneously?
                      Well, a puppy mill will have a hard time proving that they are not a business. Crack down on them for tax evasion on all the unclaimed income. That might work.

                      I am sure that any reputable AKC breeder who sells puppies is reporting the income, you know, as a responsible member of society. Then you'd protect good breeders, hurt bad ones, and not affect the pet-owning public (who make up most of the homes for ALL the dogs produced, by ALL types of breeding operations.)
                      Lifestyle coordinator for Zora, Spooky, Wolfgang and Warrior

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Originally posted by rugbygirl View Post
                        How? I honestly wonder.

                        The vast majority of dog owners in the county are pet owners. How many pet dogs do you need on a single private property?
                        How many pet dogs do YOU need on a single private property? None, imo. I hate dogs; I don't think you should have any, therefore I get to make the laws. WTH?

                        What business is it of yours if your neighbor has 4 Chihuahuas? You don't think they need 4? Well, plenty of other people don't think anybody needs even one. Keep your own nose in your own business and leave your neighbors alone. See abuse or mistreatment? Of course report it. Somebody could be abusing the one & only dog they have. Those are the laws we need to enforce, not screaming puppy mill! kennel license! at some family who exceeds some arbitrary limit.

                        Don't you see that your law effectively eliminates all dog breeding period? One bitch has 3 pups, bam! call the cops. Kennel violation. "They don't need all those dogs."

                        I repeat. This is a horrible law.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Don't you see that your law effectively eliminates all dog breeding period?
                          Not even a little bit? People who want to breed dogs in the county (or run boarding operations, or doggy day cares) BUY KENNEL LICENSES.

                          No idea why that's a huge problem. If you're breeding dogs, you should have a kennel license. This isn't "my" law, btw. It's the ACTUAL by-law in the county I live in. It was also the ACTUAL by-law in the City I used to live in.

                          If my neighbor has four chiahuahuas, and I never notice them, then I don't care. Not a whit. They are probably responsible, which is why I never notice them. The dogs I notice are the ones running loose, coming onto MY property, barking at all hours...if I happen to notice THAT owner has more than three...well, yes, I may make a call. Pretty easily enforceable kennel violation.
                          Lifestyle coordinator for Zora, Spooky, Wolfgang and Warrior

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Originally posted by rugbygirl View Post
                            They don't dictate one bit

                            That's the problem, because they create, maintain and do all of the assessment of breed standards.

                            The way this is accomplished alienates plenty of pure-bred breeders, so my major contention is just that "the AKC will fight it tooth and nail" shouldn't determine whether or not a policy decision is made that affects ALL owners. The AKC fighting something does not, to me, necessarily make it something that should be fought.
                            that is BS.

                            the breed standards are kept by breed clubs. Not all are included in the AKC, not all of them want to be included in the AKC.

                            And yes, they are the leaders in the field, by sheer numbers. Even an owner of mutts can recognize that.

                            And btw, the AKC champions purebreds....mostly produced by reponsible individuals, not mutts, happening by people to everything to take appropriate steps to eliminate those breedings.

                            The AKC does not infringe on your rights to own dogs, they don't care how many you have, or even what kind. That makes them the polar opposite from the HSUS, who, btw does not want any of us to own ay animals!
                            Originally posted by BigMama1
                            Facts don't have versions. If they do, they are opinions
                            GNU Terry Prachett

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              We also need to do a better job in educating people to not buy puppies produced by puppy mills. We need to convey that these puppies are less healthy, more likely to have behavior problems, and less likely to have the looks, health, and temperament they are seeking.

                              I am not convinced that any laws that regulate puppy mills will result in the production of puppies that have the requisite health, temperament, or conformation that people seek, no matter how restrictive these laws may be.

                              I don't have the answers as to how to educate people to simply not buy puppy mill puppies. It seems to me that the information is not all that hard to obtain. I have to say, I managed to figure this out at the age of twelve, forty uummmh years ago. But I have also talked to many people who were pretty well educated to did not have a clue.

                              Educating people to buy a purebred puppy from a responsible breeder, and teaching people what a responsible breeder is, is not always easy! Some of the animal rights groups tell people that there is no such thing as a responsible breeder. I do not think this is helpful.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                It's a tough subject because it's a chicken/egg issue. Which benefits from which? I loathe piss-poor animal husbandry. Loathe it with a white hot passion. But jumping on bandwagons and bans most often results in throwing babies out with the bathwater. Sure it might crimp a bunch of mills, but it's going to harm a helluva lot more honest, decent owners and/or breeders. Also we can't go around legislating certain things just because we personally don't do it or understand it. By far the tried and true, 100% effective way to stop issues like this is to dry up the demand. Eliminate or drastically reduce demand is what gets rid of the supply. Education of the public is definitely the answer, but like everything it's not done in a constant, widespread and non-crazy way. Protests are fine and can work, but the general public tends to see protesters are wackos. And finding people able to protest without coming across as wackos isn't easy. (thank PETA for that) Media needs to have more coverage, all media. And when it's online, it has to be on main-line sites and not specialized sites. News sites. Buyers need to demand to know the exact location/physical address of where their pups come from. Pet stores always claim "not from puppymills' and then give out of state locations, knowing buyers can't/won't check it out fully. But everything needs to be done in a way that does *not* remove rights from people. Although I haven't had more than 1-2 dogs at a time I ages, I think requiring a kennel license if I wanted a sled team again ridiculous.
                                You jump in the saddle,
                                Hold onto the bridle!
                                Jump in the line!
                                ...Belefonte

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  [QUOTE=MistyBlue;6994922]It's a tough subject because it's a chicken/egg issue. Which benefits from which? I loathe piss-poor animal husbandry. Loathe it with a white hot passion. But jumping on bandwagons and bans most often results in throwing babies out with the bathwater. Sure it might crimp a bunch of mills, but it's going to harm a helluva lot more honest, decent owners and/or breeders. Also we can't go around legislating certain things just because we personally don't do it or understand it. By far the tried and true, 100% effective way to stop issues like this is to dry up the demand. [QUOTE]

                                  Agreed. Are rescues an easy out? Sometimes, but once people want an animal out if their home, many don't really care what happens after that. I hate seeing dumped animals, but I think the practice would increase.
                                  I do think that the public is shockingly uneducated on things like health testing. Yes, reputable breeders are more expensive and might have a wait list, but I can't imagine not wanting that done.
                                  However, in terms of homeless animals, it often isn't the little dogs mills are breeding that are the problem - it is pit bull mixes, black lab mixes, German Shepherd mixes, etc. Low cost s/n programs are probably the best bet.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by paulaedwina View Post
                                    One thing I have to say from my own observations as a rescue volunteer in Rhodesian Ridgeback Rescue for years, these adoption fees are a bit intimidating to normal people. I understand the motivation behind them (to cover the costs of vetting, behavioral issues, training, etc), but anything more than about $100 turns good people away. I mean, in order to be a good do owner you ought to be able to write a check for $300 right now? I don't know what the solution is there.


                                    Paula
                                    I don't agree with you on this one. By the time the rescue pays for vaccination, spay/neuter, etc., they have about $200+ into a dog. It's only reasonable to expect an adopter of a pure bred dog to pay $200 and up for a dog.

                                    Mixes...that's a whole different story.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by rugbygirl View Post
                                      If my neighbor has four chiahuahuas, and I never notice them, then I don't care. Not a whit. They are probably responsible, which is why I never notice them.
                                      Exactly. And this law, which you like, punishes the responsible family with 4 Chihuahuas who do everything right and don't bother anybody in the least and does NOTHING about the loose-running, barking dogs you're complaining about. There are already laws to deal with those loose-runners and nuisance barkers. Enforce those.

                                      Communities should enforce the laws already on their books and leave the good people alone: there are already laws against mistreatment, inadequate food/shelter, free-roaming, nuisance barking. Enforce those.

                                      And don't lump in 4 Chi family with doggy day cares and boarding kennels. Yes, those last 2 should have licenses. You are also lumping in quality breeders who have one litter ONCE in with puppy mills. This is wrong.

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by Houndhill View Post
                                        We also need to do a better job in educating people to not buy puppies produced by puppy mills. We need to convey that these puppies are less healthy, more likely to have behavior problems, and less likely to have the looks, health, and temperament they are seeking.

                                        I am not convinced that any laws that regulate puppy mills will result in the production of puppies that have the requisite health, temperament, or conformation that people seek, no matter how restrictive these laws may be.

                                        I don't have the answers as to how to educate people to simply not buy puppy mill puppies. It seems to me that the information is not all that hard to obtain. I have to say, I managed to figure this out at the age of twelve, forty uummmh years ago. But I have also talked to many people who were pretty well educated to did not have a clue.

                                        Educating people to buy a purebred puppy from a responsible breeder, and teaching people what a responsible breeder is, is not always easy! Some of the animal rights groups tell people that there is no such thing as a responsible breeder. I do not think this is helpful.
                                        well, we have come to a point where you are lower than the snake's belly when you get a pup from a good breeder instead of a mutt form the pound.

                                        And in turn when the millers and pet store get is past the cute stage, off to the pound they go, to let the county clean up their mess....and us feel happy and all warm and fuzzy inside when we get the critter from the pound/rescue.

                                        That mechanism alone is putting a damper on reputable breeders!

                                        so yeah, while the critter isn't at fault, the rescues do perpetuate the ill bred animal and the mongrel. After all, it's hybrid vigor, right!
                                        Originally posted by BigMama1
                                        Facts don't have versions. If they do, they are opinions
                                        GNU Terry Prachett

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by Hunter88 View Post
                                          I think the trick is targeting consumers. We're capitalists and we vote with our dollars. We need some kind of campaign around identifying puppy mill puppies. It seems obvious to most of the people who would post on here, but to much of America it isn't. I wonder if there is an opportunity for SPCA or Humane Society to sponsor an ad campaign around recognizing puppy mills and avoiding. If people stop giving them money they will get out of the business real fast.

                                          And I know this is not a total solution: it doesn't address the very real fact that there ARE puppy mill puppies who still deserve great homes. How can we solve both problems simultaneously?
                                          The SPCA of Texas put together a really nice anti-puppy mill PSA. Not sure if it's made a difference, but it's a compelling 30 second spot.

                                          See it here: http://www.spca.org/knowpuppymills

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X