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Teeth, Face, Personal Space: Please Advise

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  • #61
    The idea that dogs don't really like being hugged isn't really completelly foreign, at least according to some animal behaviorist-types. Here is an article that I think kind of explains it. http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2002/hugs.htm

    I do think that every dog is different, and both socialization and the dog's inherent breeding is part of that. I've always tended to prefer a "lay at your feet"-type dog to a dog that wants to crawl into your lap. My dogs will let me hug them, and while I don't think that they would snap at a stranger over it, I would guess that they'd probably try to move away. They do seem to like being scratched and massaged more than being hugged - but they also seem to enjoy just being nearby and lying quietly, observing. They are known for being more aloof than many breeds, though.

    Comment


    • #62
      HONESTLY - where did common sense go?
      Proud member of People Who Hate to Kill Wildlife clique

      Comment


      • #63
        Casey09 I like that article!

        I grew up with a chow/golden mix who was always a bit aloof but grew more affectionate (and tolerant) with age. As a stupid kid, I'd lay down next to the dog *thisclose* to his face and stare at his eyes. Like I said, stupid. When we were both younger, he'd yelp his "quit teasing me!" yelp and a few times gave me a close-but-no-contact snap. I guess trust goes both ways because I kept doing it, and he never bit anyone in his life. As he got older (and as, according to that article, mutual trust grew) he progressed to a paw to the face, then to averting his eyes, then to honestly not caring. I can't say I'd do it now(!), but it goes to show you that a dog can certainly become more tolerant as it gets more comfortable with its people.
        "Things turn out best for the people who make the best of the way things turn out." ~John Wooden

        Phoenix Animal Rescue

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        • #64
          Originally posted by vacation1 View Post
          Me too. Not to say that it's intolerable and an instant route to euthanization for a dog to do what OP's dog is doing - many very nice dogs have little nasty spots - but it's discouraging to see people making so many excuses as if it's typical for a dog to go to aggressive threats to back off a human making a very, very mildly unpleasant gesture. It's within the tolerable range of behaviors, but it's simply not what ANY dog might do. It's what a dog with a little bit of a screw loose will do. No offense, OP, lots of nice dogs have a few loose screws.
          I agree. I do not care what kind of dog, what it is bred to do, the dog should not be allowed to set the boundaries. This is dominant behavior and should be treated as such. That it was a track trained dog, (did not know about the kitten business) and that the dog is four years old is the only reason I would give the dog any slack. All dogs are companion animals, trained to hunt, trained to pull sleds, etc., unless they are totally unsocialized, and have been abused they will love their humans. My Jack Russell Terrier, intact male did this to me once when I was kissing him "too hard" on the side of his head and only once as he got pretty sharply corrected for it. And no baloney, pseudo clicker, redirect, undirect, other directed bullshit training. The dog needs to learn that it is a cardinal sin to snap at a human, sharp correction without cruelty and time to learn that your skin, nose, face, any part of your body is off limits to their particular "vocabulary". You set the standard the dogs will follow, not the other way around unless you want the dog to train you, and ultimately that will turn out to be a very big mistake. My God the New Age has made people weird.
          "We, too, will be remembered not for victories or defeats in battle or in politics, but for our contribution to the human spirit." JFK

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Big_Grey_hunter View Post
            I'm sorry, this is the most ridiculous thing I have EVER read from you. You must be around extremely aloof dogs. Most dogs I know CRAVE physical attention starting from birth. My barn gets multiple sets of hound puppies in every year, and they all follow you around begging to get hugged, held, rubbed, and scritched. Granted dogs have different preferences on how they want to get patted, but it's a rare dog that doesn't love it. My lab wants to get pet HARD. No soft stroking for her, she wants you to scratch and pat and rub. Now that she's old and poorly balanced, we actually have to hold her up because the patting she wants knocks her over. My nervous boy dog prefers rubbing or (his favorite) having his face squished around.
            Completely and totally agree. My dogs (golden retriever, goldendoodle) are incredibly affectionate - and they often initiate it! Hugs, kisses, full-body lean-ins, snuggles in bed, trying to sit in my lap when it's tv time (super fun when both dogs each weigh 70# and believe they should both be on my lap), etc. I didn't train them to be this way, they just ARE. My gone-too-soon dog (coonhound) was the exact same - except she HAD to always touch me, always.
            “Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of Solitaire. It is a grand passion.” ~Emerson

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Calamber View Post
              I agree. I do not care what kind of dog, what it is bred to do, the dog should not be allowed to set the boundaries. This is dominant behavior and should be treated as such. That it was a track trained dog, (did not know about the kitten business) and that the dog is four years old is the only reason I would give the dog any slack. All dogs are companion animals, trained to hunt, trained to pull sleds, etc., unless they are totally unsocialized, and have been abused they will love their humans. My Jack Russell Terrier, intact male did this to me once when I was kissing him "too hard" on the side of his head and only once as he got pretty sharply corrected for it. And no baloney, pseudo clicker, redirect, undirect, other directed bullshit training. The dog needs to learn that it is a cardinal sin to snap at a human, sharp correction without cruelty and time to learn that your skin, nose, face, any part of your body is off limits to their particular "vocabulary". You set the standard the dogs will follow, not the other way around unless you want the dog to train you, and ultimately that will turn out to be a very big mistake. My God the New Age has made people weird.
              Dominance theory has been disproven repeatedly. Dogs do not think we are dogs nor do they try to establish dominance over people.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Calamber View Post
                I agree. I do not care what kind of dog, what it is bred to do, the dog should not be allowed to set the boundaries. This is dominant behavior and should be treated as such. That it was a track trained dog, (did not know about the kitten business) and that the dog is four years old is the only reason I would give the dog any slack. All dogs are companion animals, trained to hunt, trained to pull sleds, etc., unless they are totally unsocialized, and have been abused they will love their humans. My Jack Russell Terrier, intact male did this to me once when I was kissing him "too hard" on the side of his head and only once as he got pretty sharply corrected for it. And no baloney, pseudo clicker, redirect, undirect, other directed bullshit training. The dog needs to learn that it is a cardinal sin to snap at a human, sharp correction without cruelty and time to learn that your skin, nose, face, any part of your body is off limits to their particular "vocabulary". You set the standard the dogs will follow, not the other way around unless you want the dog to train you, and ultimately that will turn out to be a very big mistake. My God the New Age has made people weird.
                So was your dog totally unsocialized, and abused (as you claim an 'unloving' dog must be) or just a normal terrier who didn't like you being pushy so he yelped and snapped at you?

                And what would you have done if your correction had elicited a second, more serious bite?
                Put the dog to sleep/death?

                Not saying you were wrong in your response as it did work, but disparaging safe, proven methods or desensitizing or other behavior altering training that is less likely to result in blood and tears seems unwise.

                As far as new age, I've been around for well over a half century and rehabbing biting dogs have been a trainers problem since long before my time.

                Each dog is an individual and what works for one may be inappropriate and ineffective or counter-productive with another.

                Comment


                • #68
                  OP, you may want to have a look at this forum for greyhounds
                  http://forum.greytalk.com/

                  specifically this
                  http://forum.greytalk.com/index.php/...rted-to-growl/

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    All four corgis solicit hugs and other snuggle interactions with both me and my husband

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by wendy View Post
                      People who believe dogs LIKE being hugged should look at the pictures McConnell put in her book "the other end of the leash", or she might have some posted on line somewhere. Dogs hate being hugged, and real dog-lovers understand that and don't hug them. Of course you should spend time desensitizing your dog to being hugged (to tolerate it) so he won't take off some kid's face when the kid hugs him. But they don't like it. They just tolerate it.
                      A piece from McConnell's blog:
                      https://www.patriciamcconnell.com/th...g/hugging-dogs

                      I love her books because she shows as much interest and curiosity about people as she does about dogs. Her comments in The Other End Of the Leash make it clear that the hugging issue isn't a case of "stupid human!" but a basic primate behavior that we're hardwired to perform and to believe that the recipient enjoys.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        OP, have you contacted the organization from which you acquired your Grey?
                        Life is too short to argue with a mare! Just don't engage! It is much easier that way!

                        Have fun, be safe, and let the mare think it is her idea!

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by jetsmom View Post
                          Dominance theory has been disproven repeatedly. Dogs do not think we are dogs nor do they try to establish dominance over people.
                          Disproven by what new age loon, may I ask? Of course they do, if they get confused by the doofus who is handling them. Not all do, usually only the dominant ones, the little soft types just bowl you over with begging or ignoring.
                          "We, too, will be remembered not for victories or defeats in battle or in politics, but for our contribution to the human spirit." JFK

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Calamber View Post
                            Disproven by what new age loon, may I ask? Of course they do, if they get confused by the doofus who is handling them. Not all do, usually only the dominant ones, the little soft types just bowl you over with begging or ignoring.
                            American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior
                            http://avsabonline.org/uploads/posit..._statement.pdf

                            Assn of Pet Dog trainers
                            http://www.apdt.com/petowners/choose/dominance.aspx

                            Karen Pryor
                            http://www.clickertraining.com/node/2297

                            Ian Dunbar
                            http://www.clickersolutions.com/arti.../dominance.htm

                            Whole Dog Journal
                            http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/iss...a_20415-1.html

                            Shannon McKay
                            http://www.showdogs.co.za/articles/w.../dominance.htm

                            Dr Sophia Yin DVM (several links to studies)
                            http://drsophiayin.com/blog/tag/dominance+theory

                            Pet Professional Guild
                            http://www.petprofessionalguild.com/...itionstatement

                            APBC (footnotes at bottom with cited studies)
                            http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/why-wont-dominance-die

                            FPU (links to addl studies/refs at bottom)
                            http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm

                            Journal of veterinary behavior (peer reviewed study)
                            http://www.journalvetbehavior.com/ar...878(08)00115-9


                            There are many more articles/studies linked at the bottom of some of the links I gave.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by D_BaldStockings View Post
                              Yep, very familiar with Cattle Dogs.
                              I was posting them as a distant almost opposite comparison to a Golden Retriever, not as if they are the same.
                              Well, that makes sense then! I thought you were lumping the two breeds in the same group and I thought "Hmmm...not so much!"

                              We actually have a Golden Retriever AND a Cattle Dog...they are definitely on opposite ends of the doggy spectrum...Golden loves everybody, a giant goofball, anyone could love and hug on him all day long. The cattle dog could care less about people, takes life *very* seriously, and if someone other than me or my boyfriend tried to grab him in a hug, they would regret it.


                              Most Goldens still have the soft mouth of retreivers/gun dogs, while Cattle Dogs may be required to bite large dangerous livestock.

                              Untrained, loose cattle dogs are some of the worst livestock killers in our area: smart, efficient, tough and fearless - you can't get them to back down, sadly.

                              Absolutely fantastic dogs if well trained by someone who understands them.
                              Yep, my ACD is a tough bugger and when we've used him to move cattle, he's gotten kicked in the face (was uphill from the hind leg, and in muddy conditions, so ducking from the flying foot wasn't quite how he planned it...) and he never once backed down...

                              He is also very protective of me. I am certain if anyone ever stepped foot in our house, and my tone of voice even indicated trouble, they would be leaving in a hurry with ACD teeth in some part of their body. :-D

                              Sorry for the stray from the OP...carry on...
                              "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                That's an ACD! In my circles they're called "truck dogs" b/c they will guard your truck for you with their lives! They are tough.

                                Calamber, I guess that gives you a lot of reading to catch up on!
                                “Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.” Stephen R. Covey

                                Comment


                                • #76
                                  Originally posted by cowboymom View Post
                                  That's an ACD! In my circles they're called "truck dogs" b/c they will guard your truck for you with their lives! They are tough.

                                  Calamber, I guess that gives you a lot of reading to catch up on!
                                  I guess there is a bunch of "new age loons" like Ian Dunbar, American Veterinary Society, Karen pryor, et al.

                                  Comment


                                  • #77
                                    Jetsmom and cowboymom - it bears remembering that kindness and respect go a long way in training people as well as dogs. The broad sarcasm isn't going to win anyone to your POV.

                                    Comment


                                    • #78
                                      Oh shush, I don't need that. Meet fire with fire, it's not like Calamber came out asking for more information, s/he was being patronizing and disrespectful from the start. Humans are different than dogs; when they bring attitude and disrespect they can expect the like in return. I'm speaking for myself but I didn't see any reason to put on the soft teaching format for someone that was asking about "loons" that supported the theory.
                                      “Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.” Stephen R. Covey

                                      Comment


                                      • #79
                                        Originally posted by cowboymom View Post
                                        Oh shush, I don't need that. Meet fire with fire, it's not like Calamber came out asking for more information, s/he was being patronizing and disrespectful from the start. Humans are different than dogs; when they bring attitude and disrespect they can expect the like in return. I'm speaking for myself but I didn't see any reason to put on the soft teaching format for someone that was asking about "loons" that supported the theory.
                                        Thank you. I thought my post was pretty mild in chiding Calamber for her unprovoked, snarky comment about "new age loons" that have disproven Dominance training's effectiveness.

                                        Comment


                                        • #80
                                          Originally posted by vacation1 View Post
                                          Jetsmom and cowboymom - it bears remembering that kindness and respect go a long way in training people as well as dogs. The broad sarcasm isn't going to win anyone to your POV.
                                          Calambar is consistently posts uneducated, rude, close minded, bull-headed responses to pretty much every topic. Nothing anyone on this board says will change that.
                                          .

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