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When to Vaccinate and When to Titer?

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  • #21
    Originally posted by BuddyRoo View Post
    Wendy, even some of the fundraising dog walk deals I've done require proof of things like bordatella in addition to rabies. Most puppy training classes I'm aware of require proof of everything as well. (including corona for pups)

    And yes, most clinics still recommend annual boosters for DA2PP or DHLPP at minimum. Bordatella, Lymes, Lepto are optional (though lepto is included in some of the distemper combos, varies by region).
    Yeah, this exactly. Doggy daycare also asks for yearly vaccination, and I believe groomers do as well.

    Rabies vaccine is dictated by the state law and is either 1 year or 3 year though the vaccine itself is the same as far as I'm aware.
    The 1 year and the three year rabies vaccines are different beasts. My vet offers both, as the three year vaccine carries an increased risk of vaccine related sarcomas.

    Comment


    • #22
      My dogs don't go to doggy daycare, but are very active in training classes, clubs, seminars, and trials - and I have yet to have an issue come up because my 8-year old dog hasn't had a single vaccine other than rabies since she was 2. I expect that many of the boarding/daycare places require more regular vaccination, but many places now word their releases as "dog is vaccinated per your vet" or something similar.
      "Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." ~Mal, Firefly

      Comment


      • #23
        Originally posted by BostonBanker View Post
        My dogs don't go to doggy daycare, but are very active in training classes, clubs, seminars, and trials - and I have yet to have an issue come up because my 8-year old dog hasn't had a single vaccine other than rabies since she was 2. I expect that many of the boarding/daycare places require more regular vaccination, but many places now word their releases as "dog is vaccinated per your vet" or something similar.
        Well, as we all now know, I into playing "fast and loose" and am quite a risk taker, but I've found about the same thing.
        The boarding and grooming facility with what I would consider the best facilities requires distemper yearly and bordetella every 6 months. This is the part I don't like. They also require annual heartworm test, a giardia test every 6 months, and current rabies (1 or 3 year). All of that I am fine with. Many of the training classes require the same thing. Of course, I always get all of the puppy shots so I am talking about for dogs over 1 year of age here and not puppy classes. Puppies are different, and I keep my own on the traditional vaccine schedule. As far as shows go, I've never heard of anyone having an issue as long as the rabies vaccine is current.

        Comment


        • #24
          well, I don't do doggy day care or groomers, but I do lots of classes and other dog events and haven't ever had anyone ask for anything other than rabies. Some kennels still ask for bordatella, but it's pretty useless so if a kennel asks for it that might be a sign you shouldn't be using that kennel.

          If a class/event is asking for vaccines that your own vet isn't suggesting, or asking for more frequent vaccinations than are currently suggested by the big vet organizations, maybe you should ask them why? I certainly wouldn't go against medical advice about vaccination just to do some dogwalk or class.

          most of the people I know who teach classes avoid over-vaccinating their own dogs and certainly wouldn't expect their students to do so either.

          Comment


          • #25
            Originally posted by Simkie View Post


            The 1 year and the three year rabies vaccines are different beasts. My vet offers both, as the three year vaccine carries an increased risk of vaccine related sarcomas.
            Actually, the one and the three year vaccines are, in most cases, the same stuff.
            "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

            ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

            Comment


            • #26
              Originally posted by Ghazzu View Post
              Actually, the one and the three year vaccines are, in most cases, the same stuff.
              In most cases?

              They have always been different things at my clinic--they offer both

              Comment


              • #27
                i was told by my vet that they are EXACTLY the same vaccine - just a different label to show one is for 1 year and the other for 3 year. The 3 year rabies vaccine also costs more .... And Dr. Dodds and Schultz are now doing a Rabies Challenge Study to see how long rabies vaccine actually provides immunity. It is funded by donations because the drug companies wouldn't fund something that would possibly make them less money. Drs Dodds and Schultz expect they will find rabies vaccine provides immunity for at least 7 years, and possibly for life. Since rabies is the vaccine with the most reported side effects (because it crosses the blood brain barrier), this is an important study. The drug companies won't fund studies that cost them money and then ultimately prove vaccines don't have to be done every year unless they are forced into it...so the public needs to be educated and to support these types of studies. People don't need to vaccinated every year for most vaccines...why should dogs if the immunity lasts?
                Sue Myers
                www.MistyMeadowsHorseFarm.com

                Comment


                • #28
                  As for the competitions, dog classes, etc, I suspect it's a lot like any other gathering--variation based on common belief systems and location.

                  For example: When I was barn hunting in more rural parts of MI, some BO's didn't require ANY vaccines.

                  Another example: When I worked at a clinic in Iowa, we found that some other clinics in town who did boarding and grooming didn't require vaccines. And some veterinarians didn't really bother doing any client education when it came to say...cats. People were okay with a cat living just a few years and then dying from what was often a preventable disease.

                  Personally, I think that to some extent, choosing not to vaccinate a pet and then taking it out into large gatherings of other pets is like people who choose not to vaccinate their kids. Most of the time, everything is fine because the majority IS vaccinated and the disease(s) aren't active in the population.

                  But stuff like bordatella is so danged contagious and can even be deadly. I personally don't see the risk of vaccinating to be greater than the risk of not vaccinating.

                  Because they're our pets, we obviously have the choice with everything but Rabies which is zoonotic. If it weren't, I don't think it would be required, right?

                  (although that said, EEE, WEE, VEE, and Lyme are all zoonotic--and they're not required by law. Hmmm....)
                  A good horseman doesn't have to tell anyone...the horse already knows.

                  Might be a reason, never an excuse...

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Originally posted by BuddyRoo View Post
                    As for the competitions, dog classes, etc, I suspect it's a lot like any other gathering--variation based on common belief systems and location.

                    For example: When I was barn hunting in more rural parts of MI, some BO's didn't require ANY vaccines.

                    Another example: When I worked at a clinic in Iowa, we found that some other clinics in town who did boarding and grooming didn't require vaccines. And some veterinarians didn't really bother doing any client education when it came to say...cats. People were okay with a cat living just a few years and then dying from what was often a preventable disease.

                    Personally, I think that to some extent, choosing not to vaccinate a pet and then taking it out into large gatherings of other pets is like people who choose not to vaccinate their kids. Most of the time, everything is fine because the majority IS vaccinated and the disease(s) aren't active in the population.

                    But stuff like bordatella is so danged contagious and can even be deadly. I personally don't see the risk of vaccinating to be greater than the risk of not vaccinating.

                    Because they're our pets, we obviously have the choice with everything but Rabies which is zoonotic. If it weren't, I don't think it would be required, right?

                    (although that said, EEE, WEE, VEE, and Lyme are all zoonotic--and they're not required by law. Hmmm....)
                    But, but, you don'g get Lyme or any encephalitis directly from your pets, as you do rabies.

                    Having pets vaccinated for rabies is a barrier for you to get rabies, not so for vaccinating your, say, horses for encephalitis of all kinds.

                    Our pets are a direct path to us for a very serious, fatal disease like rabies.
                    It makes sense to require pets to be vaccinated for it, not even considering the suffering rabies would cause the pets themselves.

                    Maybe that is why by law we are supposed to vaccinate pets for rabies?

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      For you that only do the rabies vaccine, for adult dogs, do you ever have any problems with the vet because you do not vaccinate? I have heard stories, never first hand, from some who could not get a vet for issues with out first vaccinating.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Originally posted by bcody View Post
                        For you that only do the rabies vaccine, for adult dogs, do you ever have any problems with the vet because you do not vaccinate? I have heard stories, never first hand, from some who could not get a vet for issues with out first vaccinating.
                        We would not allow dogs to stay at the clinic for non-emergent stuff such as dental cleanings, drop off exams (for things like skin issues), baths, etc if they did not have proof (from a vet) of being current on DA2PP, Rabies, HW, and fecal. If we had an emergency case and the dog was not current, we'd typically keep them in isolation for their protection.

                        I'm not sure that it really made any difference though because when you think about it, there's a lot more traffic in and out of an exam room than in the back of the hospital. However, we did wash down exam rooms including floors after each patient. So...I dunno.

                        We never turned away an emergency, but I can think of many times where a procedure was put off due to lack of vaccination. Typically not by people who were doing titers--they just didn't vaccinate or vaccinated on their own so there was no proof of vaccination.

                        That's another thing...DIY vaccinating. Our clinic did not recognize DIY vaccinations. Had to be done by a licensed veterinarian.
                        A good horseman doesn't have to tell anyone...the horse already knows.

                        Might be a reason, never an excuse...

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          My guess, vets get to mop after those that don't vaccinate.
                          Can't blame them for having tunnel vision about the importance of vaccinating.

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Originally posted by Simkie View Post
                            In most cases?

                            They have always been different things at my clinic--they offer both
                            Yes--the vaccine often can and does come out of the same vial whether it's 1 yr or 3.
                            The difference is in the vaccination history of the animal, not some variation in the composition of the vaccine.
                            "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                            ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Simke, I think that they offer "both" because even in areas that will recognize a 3 year vaccination protocol, it's common practice to booster the initial vaccine in 1 year.

                              So, even though I lived in MI where a 3 year is recognized, if you have a pup getting vaccinated at 4-6 mos, he will be required to be boostered in 1 year and then it's good for 3.
                              A good horseman doesn't have to tell anyone...the horse already knows.

                              Might be a reason, never an excuse...

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                They just offered either for my nearly nine year old dog, who was "current" on her vaccines in that time had not lapsed between when she was due and the appointment. They said I could use either and that they offered the one year as some people preferred not to use the three year due to the increased risk of vaccine related sarcomas with that vaccine.

                                I'll certainly make inquiries next time I'm in. They were presented as two very different options, definitely not as the same vaccine.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by ShadowsMom View Post
                                  i was told by my vet that they are EXACTLY the same vaccine - just a different label to show one is for 1 year and the other for 3 year. The 3 year rabies vaccine also costs more ....
                                  Not from the manufacturer that I purchase it from.
                                  Veterinarians may charge differently for it, I suppose.

                                  There is a non-adjuvanted feline rabies vaccine that is strictly one year labelled.
                                  I'd like to see clear evidence that vaccinating 3 times with that vs. one time with an adjuvanted vaccine carries significantly less risk of feline sarcoma, though.



                                  And Dr. Dodds and Schultz are now doing a Rabies Challenge Study to see how long rabies vaccine actually provides immunity. It is funded by donations because the drug companies wouldn't fund something that would possibly make them less money. Drs Dodds and Schultz expect they will find rabies vaccine provides immunity for at least 7 years, and possibly for life. Since rabies is the vaccine with the most reported side effects (because it crosses the blood brain barrier), this is an important study. The drug companies won't fund studies that cost them money and then ultimately prove vaccines don't have to be done every year unless they are forced into it...so the public needs to be educated and to support these types of studies. People don't need to vaccinated every year for most vaccines...why should dogs if the immunity lasts?
                                  What type of side effects are more frequent with rabies vaccine than with other vaccines?
                                  IME, reaction rates for leptospirosis bacterin are at the top of the side effect list.

                                  And many veterinarians are looking forward to a longer DOI label on rabies vaccine.

                                  Hell, I'm still waiting for the repeat challenge study so we can get a licensed rabies vaccine for goats.
                                  "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                                  ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by BuddyRoo View Post
                                    (although that said, EEE, WEE, VEE, and Lyme are all zoonotic--and they're not required by law. Hmmm....)
                                    None of those diseases is transmissible from horse to human. Unless perhaps you handle brain tissue from an encephalitis case in the necropsy lab.
                                    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                                    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by Simkie View Post
                                      They just offered either for my nearly nine year old dog, who was "current" on her vaccines in that time had not lapsed between when she was due and the appointment. They said I could use either and that they offered the one year as some people preferred not to use the three year due to the increased risk of vaccine related sarcomas with that vaccine.

                                      I'll certainly make inquiries next time I'm in. They were presented as two very different options, definitely not as the same vaccine.
                                      That's interesting. Here is the vaccine I'm most familiar with: http://www.drugs.com/vet/rabvac-3-tf.html

                                      You'll note that it's the exact same vaccine but states that for dogs, to give it initially as a pup then 1 year following then every 3 years after that.

                                      For horses (same vaccine) every year.

                                      I certainly can't speak for your veterinary clinic but I suspect that a vet didn't tell you that about the reaction, but a receptionist or assistant did? Perhaps with old information?
                                      A good horseman doesn't have to tell anyone...the horse already knows.

                                      Might be a reason, never an excuse...

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by BuddyRoo View Post
                                        Simke, I think that they offer "both" because even in areas that will recognize a 3 year vaccination protocol, it's common practice to booster the initial vaccine in 1 year.
                                        That is according to label and approval documentation.
                                        First vaccination, even with a 3-year licensed vaccine, is considered valid for one year.
                                        *If* the second vaccination is administered in <365 days from the first, the second vaccination, if labelled as a 3 year vaccine from the producer, is valid for 3 years.
                                        "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                                        ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by Simkie View Post
                                          They just offered either for my nearly nine year old dog, who was "current" on her vaccines in that time had not lapsed between when she was due and the appointment. They said I could use either and that they offered the one year as some people preferred not to use the three year due to the increased risk of vaccine related sarcomas with that vaccine.

                                          I'll certainly make inquiries next time I'm in. They were presented as two very different options, definitely not as the same vaccine.
                                          Vaccine associated fibrosarcomas in dogs are exceedingly rare.
                                          Probably on a par with microchip-associated fibrosarcoma.
                                          If I don't freeze to death during my afternoon livestock lab, I'll look for some statistics.
                                          "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                                          ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                                          Comment

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