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Whomever(s) recommended Endosorb? You gave me a GREAT Christmas Present!!!

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  • #21
    BuddyRoo, you do have a diagnosis, sort of. You have an overgrowth of some toxic bacteria in the gut--something that is seemingly not sensitive to metronidazole or tylosin. Considering the surgeries and hospitalizations and antibiotics, an imbalance in the gut in certainly understandable!


    • Original Poster

      Yeah, but what next? I don't know what to tell them to test for and they (the vets) don't seem to be moving forward on a diagnosis other than doing this ACTH test that I feel is going to be a waste of (a lot of) money--but they want to put him on steroids next so the ACTH has to go first. I feel like I'm pretty much responsible for guiding the way for any next steps at this point and I'm not sure what to ask for.

      Another fecal, a culture, the ACTH....

      I really don't believe that this is a food allergy issue as the local vet does. (the MSU vet doesn't think so either.) Neither vet thinks it's short bowel. Neither vet thinks that it's just a bacterial overgrowth and both have scoffed at me giving the probiotic.

      I don't know what to ask for next. But this little alleviation is so nice. I got the rug doctor (again) and am about to do the carpets (again) and hopefully for the last time for awhile.

      I guess I need to do more research and figure out what else to ask for. There has to be a root cause here....
      A good horseman doesn't have to tell anyone...the horse already knows.

      Might be a reason, never an excuse...


      • #23
        Well, the root cause could be the surgery, the hospitalization and the antibiotics. The gut has been damaged and has to heal. Support with really, really good probiotics, use the endosorb and give it time.

        I'd say if you want to do something more then you could inquire about a fecal transplant, perhaps using your healthy dog as the donor.

        But I don't think there's anything wrong at all to just keep doing what you're doing for perhaps three or four months before trying to taper off the endosorb and seeing what you have.

        I don't see any reason at all to put him on steroids if the diarrhea is controlled.


        • #24
          Here's a hypothesis....

          1. G was romping around and consumed something bad, perhaps even toxic. Probably something solid that is just sitting in his bowels.

          2. What G consumed is lingering in his tummy and may be difficult to figure out due to the fact that it is some sort of toxic material that may not be detectable with regular tests and the fact that it's sitting there in his tummy slowly digesting instead of being moved out.

          3. The Endosorb is absorbing the toxic elements of the material and passing it out of his system but may not be a long-term solution. Perhaps G needs his tummy pumped?
          Thus do we growl that our big toes have, at this moment, been thrown up from below!


          • Original Poster

            Lex, the thing is, they cut open his stomach and his small intestine, took everything out, and put it back together though...so I don't think it's just something sitting in there. They literally cut it all open and removed all of the junk. (molson beer box and paper towels were the items removed..they took pics...he loves cardboard and paper!)
            A good horseman doesn't have to tell anyone...the horse already knows.

            Might be a reason, never an excuse...


            • #26
              well, he could have eaten some more stuff post-surgery.

              But you don't have to ask the vets for anything- if the dog seems happy, and the symptoms are GONE, why do anything? see if he can heal. Do as Simke suggests for a few weeks- just leave it be, then try slowly weaning him off everything and see if he's normalized. Then you can try putting him on a better diet instead of the z/d.
              I wouldn't put him on steroids if you have a better fix for the problem (you do).


              • #27
                Wonderfull news!!! Don't now if I was the only one to recommend Endosorb, but it has saved my carpets many a night. It feels good to be able to help someone else, love these forums.


                • Original Poster

                  Originally posted by wendy View Post
                  well, he could have eaten some more stuff post-surgery.

                  But you don't have to ask the vets for anything- if the dog seems happy, and the symptoms are GONE, why do anything? see if he can heal. Do as Simke suggests for a few weeks- just leave it be, then try slowly weaning him off everything and see if he's normalized. Then you can try putting him on a better diet instead of the z/d.
                  I wouldn't put him on steroids if you have a better fix for the problem (you do).
                  There is a very very very low possibility of him having gotten into something else post op as he's only been off leash outside once since then...today. Else, he's on the leash. And there's nothing here in the house for him. I've been ridiculously vigilant.

                  My issue is that I want a diagnosis. I've proven now that either with kaopectate or with the endosorb, we can slow things down. But that isn't a real fix. It's just a bandaid. I want to know what the heck is going on!
                  A good horseman doesn't have to tell anyone...the horse already knows.

                  Might be a reason, never an excuse...


                  • #29
                    It is most vexing indeed. Especially since the proof has not been found in the pudding, as it were.
                    Thus do we growl that our big toes have, at this moment, been thrown up from below!


                    • Original Poster

                      A good horseman doesn't have to tell anyone...the horse already knows.

                      Might be a reason, never an excuse...


                      • #31
                        BuddyRoo, an imbalance in the bacteria in the gut IS a diagnosis. I cannot even tell you how many times Riana just popped up with a clostridial overgrowth that we had to treat. There was no reason WHY that happened that we could ever identify--the overgrowth was the problem, not some nebulous, hidden other trigger.

                        Intestinal surgery and hospitalization and multiple rounds of antibiotics is so, so likely to screw up the flora. And screwed up flora can absolutely cause what you're seeing. Screwed up flora and overgrowth of the wrong bacteria can even kill...what grows in the gut is terribly important.

                        An overgrowth of something bad could absolutely explain all that you've seen here, and would totally respond to the endosorb and a really good probiotic. There's nothing you can really do about it, other than what you're doing, unless you want to pursue a fecal transplant or really try to identify WHAT bacteria is causing the problem through smears and cultures (which might not even be possible, and probably wouldn't really change your course of action.)

                        There's so much we just don't know about the gut and the bacteria in the gut and how it all works together. You might not ever be able to nail down exactly WHAT bacteria in the gut is causing the problem, but you don't need to know exactly what the causative agent is. Call it an atypical C. diff infection if it makes you feel better--that's probably as likely as anything else!


                        • #32
                          BuddyRoo, this might be interesting reading:



                          • #33
                            I can tell you that the bacterial overgrowth critters I have seen (admittedly only a handful) have benefited from a round of Clavamox in conjunction with metronidazole.


                            • #34
                              Bacterial overgrowth will be seen with fecal cultures. Im pretty sure BuddyRoo said these were repeated and within normal limits? (Correct me if Im wrong) Always worth repeating, but I dont know how many times to repeat before you are happy with a negative result?

                              I would still put my money on some inflammation of the GI tract, and if he isnt losing weight, I would assume large bowel over small bowel.

                              There are so many untapped GI diseases that could this pup could have, fortunatley it doesnt sound like a progressive terminal disease as he is otherwise doing well. In many cases, a steroid such as prednisone is used in people with severe GI diseases such as ulcerative colitis, chrones and neoplastic disease. Inflammation is not necessarily going to be responsive to an antibiotic, but likely will with an anti-inflammatory. Due to severe GI side effects with non-steroidal anti-inflammatories, steroidal AI's are used successfully in people and dogs. Side effects are generally increased thirst, urination, hunger and muscle wasting. Hepatitis is something to monitor if on high doses, but generally GI diseases respond well to tapering doses and maintained on very low doses.

                              BuddyROo - were full thickness biopsies of his colon or SI taken during surgery? If so, did the report say "histologically normal intestine" or was there any sign of inflammation?

                              I agree though,for the time being the supportive treatments are working. Antibiotics can absolutley wipe out the flora of the gut,and a probiotic can be very helpful. I wouldnt take him off ZD for the time being, as this could be part of his response. Since the diarrhea started before this food, it is unlikely a trigger. If you do get a diagnosis, or good response over X weeks, then wouldbe the time to switch if you wanted to do so. While I agree many times diarrhea can be altered with food trials, I would be hard pressed to say after all the tests etc. with your dog that he is allergic to the ZD food.

                              Keep us posted and we will keep jingling for you.


                              • #35
                                Wonderful news!

                                Do dogs get nonspecific colitis? And is the stuff you are using biosponge, but for dogs?
                                "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
                                The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.


                                • #36
                                  I think he had normal biopsies. I mentioned the Clavamox--though I think he was tested for bacterial overgrowth--because somebody else said that the Endosorb working (a product I've not used, but will look into) meant that it was absorbing toxins from extra bacteria.

                                  Either way, I wish her a dog who continues to return to health.


                                  • #37
                                    Me too! If the ensorb is working so far, thats excellent Im so happy for BuddyRoo that her dog (and her!) are finally having some relief!


                                    • Original Poster

                                      The biopsies that were done were full thickness--but they were done with the section that was removed during the second anastomosis. There was some distention in front of last year's Christmas anastomosis (no blockage, nothing present there, just some distention). That sample did not show any thickening, any inflammation, or any other abnormal changes. There was some concern that that inflammation due to the perforation and sepsis last year could've contributed but once they got in there, everything looked good. Not to mention that his surgery was last Xmas and he didn't have any issues until August.

                                      We did do fecal smear/cultures right before I left for VA when they tested for giardia. I can check another next week when we do ACTH.

                                      I'll inquire about the clavamox. I would've hoped the Tylan in conjunction with metronidazole would've covered that base, but who knows.

                                      We know he's had some LI inflammation as it was noticeable during a rectal exam, but that could be chicken/egg.

                                      Anyway...the Endosorb is doing a pretty good job. I'm not giving it every 4 hours, just every 12. I took him out to the barn yesterday to run around and he ended up having some looser stool there, but I think he was just overly stimulated. Still not liquid.

                                      Just have to say thank you again--so much--to all of you!
                                      A good horseman doesn't have to tell anyone...the horse already knows.

                                      Might be a reason, never an excuse...


                                      • #39
                                        YAY for you, BuddyRoo!

                                        Does this stuff work on cats too? Am having similar long term problem with ancient Persian cat, so far we get either a plug or pudding, using a probiotic every day, sometimes twice.
                                        What's wrong with you?? Your cheese done slid off its cracker?!?!


                                        • Original Poster

                                          Oliverreed, everything that I have seen indicates that it can be used for cats. Although I think you'd use the suspension and not the tabs for a kitty.

                                          I ordered mine last Friday, got it delivered Monday via Amazon.
                                          A good horseman doesn't have to tell anyone...the horse already knows.

                                          Might be a reason, never an excuse...