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Update on the GI issue dog...got the test results back.

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  • #61
    Was going to suggest asking your vet about tylosin, but I see he's already been on that.

    ACTH stim is suggested for what, addisons?

    What is your vets feeling on a prednisone trial? SUPER cheap drug, and should see some change if you are dealing with either IBD, lymphoma or addisons.

    I would be leary of feeding a dog with diarrhea raw food. Im not anti-raw,but have seen the precussions of bacterial translocation from unhealthy guts and raw diets. Maybe if you are thinking that route, try a home cooked diet (no bones).

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #62
      He's not dehydrated, thankfully. Drinks plenty. He's on the tylan powder, yes.

      Vet here has been dark since prescribing tylan, metronidazole and Z/D last Tuesday. Other vet at MSU emailed back and forth Friday and I sent him all the latest test results and said he'd call, but no word yet.

      So as of this moment, local vet says food allergy. MSU vet doesn't think so, but all tests look good to him and he wanted to consult others.

      Thing is, the poop issue was the same before surgery as now--I'm in precisely the same place now as I was prior to surgery. I don't think the surgery was really warranted. I think that was just a red herring. No doubt he had some foreign bodies (paper products), but none were causing blockage. So probably good to remove, but none of us think that was the real problem at this point--including the surgeon who did the procedure. (both last year and this year. Le sigh!)

      So I dunno. Totally at a loss right now, Squish. At a loss.
      A good horseman doesn't have to tell anyone...the horse already knows.

      Might be a reason, never an excuse...

      Comment


      • #63
        I hear ya...

        While there is a risk, if money is tight, I would ask for a pred trial.

        ACTH stims are costly, as are multiple scopes and food trials. You can get a pred for about $0.02 per day.

        Electrolytes are also super cheap to run, we charge $15 at our hospital to run them.

        Man, your dog isnt making it easy for you. I sympathize!! I know some people are scared of steroid trials, but considering the cost and potential benefits I would personally give it a try. If there are side effects, its easy enough to wean them then stop them.

        Comment


        • #64
          BuddyRoo, did they ever do a smear of the poop or otherwise test to see if there is a Clostridial overgrowth? Theoretically, the antibiotics would hit it, but maybe not if it's C. difficile...

          I still think a fecal transplant from a healthy dog would be a terribly interesting thing to consider. I would not think it would be very costly...

          Comment


          • #65
            oh...I watched that one too, crunch crunch crunch...gives me the hebby gebbies



            Originally posted by diffuse01 View Post
            you'll love this then: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsVtwez5Jdc

            My youngest (not in any of the videos) is a bit neater with his food

            I HATE raw meat, honestly. I refuse to touch it.. I wear gloves when I'm prepping their food LOL. But I've become pretty darn good at cutting up various animal parts! It's a "sacrifice" I make to give them the food that works the best for them.
            www.facebook.com/doggonegoodgoodies
            http://doggonebakedgoods.com/

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #66
              Squish? ARe you magic or am I losing it? I could've sworn your post was asking about dehydration and asking for an update...but I don't see that yours is edited at this point. Am I dreaming? LOL

              Anyway....

              -MSU vet talked about doing steroids. I'm cool w/ that but he thought it would be wise to do the ACTH to rule out Addisons before we start a steroid trial as that will confuse things. I get it....which is why I've put off both. I feel like I should do the ACTH before I go with pred, but cripes, it's 300 bucks. But the pred might give him relief. I am just such a "diagnosis" person....I hate parts changing!!!

              -even though lymphoma has come up repeatedly, there's just been no sign. Bloodwork has been good, biopsies good, etc.

              Simke--no, no one has done a fecal smear post op and I'm not so sure half of the tests we talked about pre op actually got done. I know the giardia test didn't get done. So it might be worth talking about. It's been hard to do a fecal of any kind in the last few weeks because I can't get a sample very easily when it's liquid.
              A good horseman doesn't have to tell anyone...the horse already knows.

              Might be a reason, never an excuse...

              Comment


              • #67
                They don't need much to do a smear, BR. My old Ridgeback would get a Clostridial overgrowth once or twice a year, which led to just terrible, liquid, explosive diarhhea. Ziploc baggie inside out over your hand and scrape as much as you can off the grass (or your carpet ) and that should be enough to take a look.

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #68
                  We did a fecal like that a few weeks ago, Simke, but I don't think they checked for clostridium.

                  You make a good point.

                  That's easy enough to test for.
                  A good horseman doesn't have to tell anyone...the horse already knows.

                  Might be a reason, never an excuse...

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Buddy, I did edit the post - reread that he was on Tylan so took that out

                    The reason I mentioned electrolytes was because hyperkalemia can often give you a "hint" that addisons may be present. Not always though, and an ACTH stim is always a supporting blood test to do after the lytes. Is it really $300? That seems high...but then again, synachten isnt cheap. I think our hospital charges around $200.

                    Ugh, so frusterating. I hope MSU follows up with you soon. All these tests certainly add up. Im sure you can appreciate how easily I racked up close to $20,000 in diagnostics for my dog. Makes you appreciate human health care coverage eh??

                    This fecal test may also give you some clues as to what is happening: http://vetmed.tamu.edu/gilab/service/assays/alpha1

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #70
                      Dr. D from MSU emailed tonight around 10:30...I didn't see it til a few min ago. He is consulting with an internist about my dog tomorrow. He asked some follow up questions. I mentioned the fecal smear and such.

                      Yeah, the ACTH is 300 here in VA. We did do the malabsorption test via TX A & M last week, did the CBC/chem...everything looks danged good! GRR!

                      I hear you on the hyperkalemia. I think that if he really does have Addisons, he's about the most non-standard case. But Dr. D mentioned pred again and I'm not averse to doing that but I feel like if I'm ever going to do the ACTH, I better do it before starting pred. It will be too messy after.

                      Yeah, I hear how you can rack that up. I'm kind of embarassed to say how much I've spent on this dog over the years. When I think of folks (like my mom) who have no insurance, the fact that I have spent many many thousands on my dog makes me feel a little ashamed.

                      But...he's my kid. And if it were my husband's uninsured child, I'd make it happen too. So that's how I work it out in my head. Thanks for following up, Squish. I appreciate your time.
                      A good horseman doesn't have to tell anyone...the horse already knows.

                      Might be a reason, never an excuse...

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        No worries, I spent well over 9k in one year on my PLE dog
                        The one good thing about repeating your mistakes is that you know when to cringe.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          What will the ACTH do for you, BRoo? How will your treatment of the dog change if it gives you answers? IOW, if the treatment will not have any/many side effects, can you just do the treatment and skip the test?

                          That's what we did with Bo when he had his liquid diarrhea. Vet said that he could do some tests but it was going to cost $$$. Treatment was going to be significantly cheaper and there would be no negative effects of treating with the meds if they didn't work.

                          I guess what I'm trying to get at is if you are going to treat with prednisone depending on the results of the ACTH, why not just treat with the prednisone and skip the test? If it works, great, no test needed. If it doesn't work, then you really haven't spent that much extra money and you could probably get an idea of whether certain things can be ruled out further.

                          JMO, and it may be completely off base as I don't know much about the ACTH. Sending jingles for you guy. I'm sorry that you are still struggling with this trying to find answers. I'm in NoVA, not far from Fair Lakes. I sounds like you are near there? If you ever need a day off to just get away and do something for yourself, let me know. I'll come sit with your dog for you so you can get away for a little while.
                          "People ask me 'will I remember them if I make it'. I ask them 'will you remember me if I don't?'"

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #73
                            Well, if he has Addisons (which we'd learn from the ACTH) it's actually not too hard to treat.

                            But if I give steroids first, we'd then have to off of them for quite a while before trying to do the ACTH later as it will screw up the test.

                            Pred wouldn't be the treatment for Addisons the way i understand it.

                            Dr. D and Dr. P are both looking into things I guess. Just need to get through the weekend and see what they come up with. More Z/D for now.

                            I'm not sure where Fair Lakes is. I'm in West Springfield near Burke right off of Braddock. But thank you. THat's kind of you. I think that we'll be fine, just would like to sort this out once and for all.

                            <looks at watch> got to feed the mutts and prep for Mr. Roo getting home.
                            A good horseman doesn't have to tell anyone...the horse already knows.

                            Might be a reason, never an excuse...

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Fair Lakes is just past the shopping center where the Costco and Home Depot are right across from one another.
                              Thus do we growl that our big toes have, at this moment, been thrown up from below!

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Milocalwinnings View Post
                                What will the ACTH do for you, BRoo? How will your treatment of the dog change if it gives you answers? IOW, if the treatment will not have any/many side effects, can you just do the treatment and skip the test?

                                That's what we did with Bo when he had his liquid diarrhea. Vet said that he could do some tests but it was going to cost $$$. Treatment was going to be significantly cheaper and there would be no negative effects of treating with the meds if they didn't work.

                                I guess what I'm trying to get at is if you are going to treat with prednisone depending on the results of the ACTH, why not just treat with the prednisone and skip the test? If it works, great, no test needed. If it doesn't work, then you really haven't spent that much extra money and you could probably get an idea of whether certain things can be ruled out further.

                                JMO, and it may be completely off base as I don't know much about the ACTH. Sending jingles for you guy. I'm sorry that you are still struggling with this trying to find answers. I'm in NoVA, not far from Fair Lakes. I sounds like you are near there? If you ever need a day off to just get away and do something for yourself, let me know. I'll come sit with your dog for you so you can get away for a little while.
                                If you treat a dog for Addison's who does not have Addison's you can cause other metabolic issues. Once you know a dog has Addison's, they can be managed quite easily. Most dog owners note that their dogs are healthier than they have been in months once they start to receive Percorten and prednisone (they need both if they have typical Addison's). My dog had been sick off and on for 6 months before his diagnosis. Now, he is well-managed and back to doing agility (or he was before I broke my foot )

                                Comment


                                • #76
                                  Originally posted by BuddyRoo View Post

                                  Pred wouldn't be the treatment for Addisons the way i understand it.
                                  Treatment for Typical Addison's includes Percorten AND Pred or Florinef. The Percorten is a monthly injection, and there are low-dose protocols that leave the dogs feeling great and make it very affordable. The pred is a very low dose to replace cortisol and given every morning.

                                  Comment


                                  • #77
                                    Originally posted by SquishTheBunny View Post
                                    I hear ya...

                                    While there is a risk, if money is tight, I would ask for a pred trial.

                                    ACTH stims are costly, as are multiple scopes and food trials. You can get a pred for about $0.02 per day.

                                    Electrolytes are also super cheap to run, we charge $15 at our hospital to run them.

                                    Man, your dog isnt making it easy for you. I sympathize!! I know some people are scared of steroid trials, but considering the cost and potential benefits I would personally give it a try. If there are side effects, its easy enough to wean them then stop them.
                                    The problem with this is if it is Typical Addison's as opposed to Atypical, a steroid trial will not adequately treat the disease, and the dog can still crash. Sorry to post so many times about Addison's, but I am part of a Canine Addison's group, and so many people join AFTER their dogs have crashed, and some after their dogs have crashed and died. Many of those dogs were under veterinarian's care and, because many vets are unfamiliar with Addison's, the dogs were mis-managed. One woman recently lost her two and half year old Standard Poodle because the vet operated for a foreign body (which he did not have) rather than diagnosing Addison's. The dog crashed the day after surgery. Addison's is hard to recognize, and under-diagnosed, but, hopefully, by educating vets and other dog people, fewer dogs will die unnecessarily.

                                    Comment


                                    • #78
                                      Oh yes, I totally agree with you. Diagnosis is ALWAYS important before treatment. I work with 4 boarded internists who are all well versed with addisons, atypical addisons etc. However, what I was getting at what that if its "the end of the road" as far as money goes, often low doses of steroids are well tolerated by animals and worth a shot. I would always try a "likely" treatment before euthanizing, knowing that it may do nothing at all andpotentially make it worse.

                                      Ive seen my share of dogs in an addisonian crisis, and ones that are just not doing well (ie. diarrhea, anorexia). Its actually not hard to recognize if you have the correct tools, but it does cost money, especially when results need to be repeated.

                                      Pred CAN treat many dogs with addisons, florinef and Percortin also are used to treat it.

                                      The thing with prednisone, is that if a diagnosis CANT be reached (money restraints), it can help with IBD, Lymphoma and potentially addisons. I never said it was gold standard, but with limited resources it can be worth a try.

                                      With an internal medicine and ICU background, I would always 100% of the time recommend work ups and quality diagnostics....however, I am also realistic and understand its not in everyones budget.

                                      Comment


                                      • #79
                                        I'm gonna go hug my dog now.
                                        Thus do we growl that our big toes have, at this moment, been thrown up from below!

                                        Comment


                                        • #80
                                          No further suggestions for you, just some jingles that you figure this out soon and your pup starts feeling better.

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