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Question for dog breeders

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  • Question for dog breeders

    What is considered a fair stud fee for a titled male (GSD) and what about guaranteeing a litter or live puppies? Does it work anything like stud fees for stallions?
    TIA
    PennyG

  • #2
    I think it depends on a few things.
    What testing has he had done as far as medical?
    Has he sired a litter before?
    What is he titled in, conformation or other?
    Is the bitch also titled?
    And is this live, or frozen?

    Hips and elbows are very important in GSD's. If your stud has exceptional hips (and can prove it through OFA and PennHIP) then you will likely get a far better price.
    Last edited by SquishTheBunny; Oct. 6, 2012, 11:33 AM.

    Comment


    • #3
      I do not know about your breed specifically, but often stud fee is equivalent to price of one puppy. For the GSP's we have typically paid anywhere in the $750 to $1000. On the corgi side (where more genetic screening is common) I have paid up to $1100. I also foot the bill for collection and shipment of semen on top of stud fee.

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #4
        I don't have a male -- I'm asking since I have a good female I am interested in breeding. Her sire and dam are both titled and imported, and her entire pedigree is full of titled and champion ancestors. She is OFA'd and brucellosis tested as would be any male I would use. I would prefer to just take her to the male, so looking in the SE at specific types and bloodlines and preferably titled and proven. The stud fees mentioned are helpful -- what about a guaranteed pregnancy or live litter? I don't mind paying a stud fee as you've mentioned for a good male -- but would like some sort of guarantee -- is that routine or not?
        PennyG

        Comment


        • #5
          I agree with prices above - generally equivalent to one puppy; in my breed it could be from about $400/500 to $1000/1200 ish depending on the quality of the stud. I would expect to get about $1000 for my dog if used as stud since that is about what puppies from a litter of his quality would bring.

          However, if you had an untitled bitch and bred it to a super successful stud, you would expect to pay top dollar for the stud fee even if your puppies weren't going to sell for as much.

          As far as guarantee, that's a good question. I have only heard of a few times where the litter didn't take, and I'm not sure how they handled the stud fee. In an unproven male (has not sired any litters yet), you might pay a lesser stud fee. Or, what many breeders do is have the stud fertility tested first to ensure motile sperm. I can ask my dog's breeder how a stud fee is handled if the bitch doesn't take as I know it happened to her a few years ago.

          Comment


          • #6
            Having worked for an ortho vet, I would want to see Penn Hip results on both dogs and their parents before I saw any show records or anything else if I were considering one of your pups.

            When I had my dog bred, I didn't pay the stud fee until the pups were born. The stud fee was a pup (but the owners, my mentors in the breed, didn't want a pup) or the price of a pup. My dog only had two (really? just two, Drover? ) puppies so they waived the fee. My brother took his pick of the two and I kept the leftover, done deal. I had eight puppies spoken for! anyway, I digress...
            “Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.” Stephen R. Covey

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by cowboymom View Post
              Having worked for an ortho vet, I would want to see Penn Hip results on both dogs and their parents before I saw any show records or anything else if I were considering one of your pups.
              I agree on health checks - Penn Hip or OFA, and other health checks as your breed requires....obviously the price you will get for your puppies will be based on the quality and health of both parents. And, unless your bitch is titled, you may not be able to breed to the dog of your choice. I would not breed my current dog (AKC Ch.) to an untitled bitch. Although, I did allow my first dog's breeder to breed him (AKC Ch.) to his untitled hunting bitch for puppies specifically bred for hunting.

              Originally posted by cowboymom View Post
              When I had my dog bred, I didn't pay the stud fee until the pups were born. The stud fee was a pup (but the owners, my mentors in the breed, didn't want a pup) or the price of a pup.
              Now that you say that; yes, that is how it worked for my dog when we bred him. I would assume that if the breeding didn't take there would be no stud fee paid. If the breeding was from frozen semen I would still expect to pay.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by TKR View Post
                I don't have a male -- I'm asking since I have a good female I am interested in breeding. Her sire and dam are both titled and imported, and her entire pedigree is full of titled and champion ancestors. She is OFA'd and brucellosis tested as would be any male I would use. I would prefer to just take her to the male, so looking in the SE at specific types and bloodlines and preferably titled and proven. The stud fees mentioned are helpful -- what about a guaranteed pregnancy or live litter? I don't mind paying a stud fee as you've mentioned for a good male -- but would like some sort of guarantee -- is that routine or not?
                PennyG
                The owner of a good male that has been titled and tested is going to want him with the best possible bitches. So just having your girl OFA'ed and tested clean of brucellosis isn't going to be enough. She should be titled, too, if you want to attract good males.

                What bloodlines are we talking about? American Showlines? West German Showlines? Working lines? If working lines, what subset? DDR? Regardless of what lines, you should have access to some venue that highlights the skills of your particular lines. Start there. Title your dog, get her out in front of the stud owners. You'll be proving the breed worthiness of your dog, while at the same time noticing which studs would provide a good match for her.
                Sheilah

                Comment


                • #9
                  Since others have addressed the issue of your bitch and her lack of title, I will address the issue of guarantees.

                  Most breeders will guarantee a pregnancy or you get a return breeding. And some will guarantee at least a certain number of offspring or you get a return breeding. How many would depend upon the breed and what is the average number in a litter.

                  In my breed (Cavalier King Charles Spaniels) average number of puppies in a litter is 3-4. The guaranteed number in a litter for our breed is usually at least 2 puppies.
                  Visit Sonesta Farms website at www.sonestafarms.com or our FaceBook page at www.facebook.com/sonestafarms. Also showing & breeding Cavalier King Charles Spaniels.

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    I was strictly interested in knowing whether it was routine for a stud dog owner to give some sort of breeding guarantee as part of the stud fee, not advice about whether to breed or not. I don't breed indiscriminatly with anything -- I've bred horses for 30+ years and done rescue since I was a kid -- have a houseful of spayed/neutered rescues - cats, dogs and a mini horse. I bought a very good female with the idea of breeding her --if I wished-- to an appropriate male. She has been tested and is good with her tests. I have spoken with a few kennels/breeders of top quality/titled males that are very interested in breeding her based on her pedigree. Producing litters to sell is not my ambition.
                    PennyG

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Although I didn't read all the posts, I didn't see anyone criticizing you for breeding a female with no titles. But, one of your questions was about what the stud fee should be and people were trying to explain to you that your stud fee would be affected by the lack of titles on your girl. And without a title, your girl might not be able to get a breeding to a top stud.

                      That is all. Not criticism. Just facts.
                      Visit Sonesta Farms website at www.sonestafarms.com or our FaceBook page at www.facebook.com/sonestafarms. Also showing & breeding Cavalier King Charles Spaniels.

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        Sonesta, wasn't trying to be "snarky" -- Idaho Rider was giving some advice about having her titled before breeding. I do understand the importance of a title and what it brings to the table. I might mention that I have owned many fine purebred dogs over the years and have never bred any of them. They were all spayed or neutered except for an exceptional male GSD that I never got around to breeding and will regret. No, he wasn't titled, but he was the greatest dog ever. I searched for this particular female for a long time and bought her from a reputable breeder/kennel that kept her sister to title and breed. I would not even entertain the idea of breeding her if I didn't think she was worthy. There were offers for her as a puppy by others who wished to do more with her, but I convinced the breeder she was meant for me. If I breed her it is strictly to keep 1 or 2 for myself and a few individuals that I know who could offer a great home. Whether any will be titled is an unknown. It is certainly possible. I have owned GSD's all my life and appreciate what they represent and how the breed is now "categorized" by American showlines, West German, East German (DDR) and Czech. I know what works for me and what I like and want. I grew up next to a small GSD kennel/breeder who showed and titled their dogs in CDX and tracking, so I certainly appreciate them as much as anyone. I am interested in the best match for my female within the lines and type that appeal to me. I would look for a titled male only as far as what it represents in their trainability, intelligence and reason to stand at stud. I doubt I would breed her more than once, it's not about the money for the puppies. She is West German lines -- they show and do Schutzhund, herd and all kinds of service. They are my preference in type, temperment and suitability for me. The East German/DDR/Czech are just (usually) more intense and not the type that appeals to me. I definitely don't want American showlines. I wish to meet the males in person, so will stick to the SE. Mainly interested in direct lines to Batu, Lasso, Wienerau, Ducati, Kirschental, Arminius, Wildsteiger Land, Schloss, Farbenspiel, etc.
                        Thanks --
                        PennyG

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by cowboymom View Post
                          Having worked for an ortho vet, I would want to see Penn Hip results on both dogs and their parents before I saw any show records or anything else if I were considering one of your pups.

                          When I had my dog bred, I didn't pay the stud fee until the pups were born. The stud fee was a pup (but the owners, my mentors in the breed, didn't want a pup) or the price of a pup. My dog only had two (really? just two, Drover? ) puppies so they waived the fee. My brother took his pick of the two and I kept the leftover, done deal. I had eight puppies spoken for! anyway, I digress...
                          Totally agree, PennHIP is superior especially in GSDs. If you get a stud with good PennHIP scores you will be rolling in the money (as long as your girl does too!). Our police force imports a lot of dogs from Europe as Canadian and American lines rarely have good enough hips for working dogs. Out of 10 that I hip tested this year, two of them passed. One american, one Czech...and these dogs are well into the five figures. Seriously, if you invest into PennHips on both sides and have dogs in the 70th+ percentile, those puppies will be in hot demand by working services.

                          Also, if you are breeding for conformation (rather than working), if possible get your dog titled, this will also widen your range of studs available to you. Some owners of titled stud dogs, wont breed them to a non-titled bitch. Not to say you can't get a nice one, but it will broaden your search.

                          And yes, usually the value of 1 pup. So, coming from an untitled bitch probably $750-1000. There is often a 1 live pup guarantee, up until it first suckles, but Im sure this is breeder specific.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by TKR View Post
                            Mainly interested in direct lines to Batu, Lasso, Wienerau, Ducati, Kirschental, Arminius, Wildsteiger Land, Schloss, Farbenspiel, etc.
                            You're going to find those lines easily, since they represent some of the most common/popular lines in the WGSL dogs. I own a very well bred WGSL male myself, from a respected breeder, and he has all these names in his pedigree.

                            I know the breed, have lived and worked them for most of my life. And I stand by my statement that you need more than health clearances and bloodlines to attract what the OP called "a good male". There are a ton of WGSL dogs out there, and they all have the same names in their pedigrees. The owners of the "good males" are pretty picky about who they put their males to, since his name will rise and fall as a stud based on what he produces. Schutzhund in the U.S. follows the SV system, so a female needs to have at least a Sch I title in order to be "approved" for breeding.
                            Sheilah

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I raise and show Labradors. In our breed, a proven AKC finished champion with health clearances (hips, elbows, eyes, heart) usually is offered at stud for around $1000, which is about the average selling price is for a well-bred Lab pup depending on what area of the country you are in.

                              I don't know about other breeds, but the Lab stud dog owners usually offer a guarantee of 2 or 3 live puppies. If your girl doesn't have the agreed upon number of live pups, they will then permit a rebreeding. I have also had stud dog owners agree to let me pay a service fee of $200-$300 upfront. Then, the balance of the stud fee is due once puppies are born. HOWEVER, with this service fee arrangement, there is no rebreeding option if your bitch doesn't take or produce a certain number of live pups.

                              I have also had a stud dog owner take a puppy from the litter in lieu of paying a stud fee but that option is usually only utilized when the stud and bitch owners know one another or if the stud dog owner really likes the pedigree of your bitch. Most stud owners will wait to make this determination because there is no guarantee what the pups will look like and mature to.

                              As others have mentioned, most stud dog owners with the NICE boys are selective about the girls their boys are bred to.

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #16
                                Thanks. I will look into the Schutzhund training -- will see what a title entails. Not sure what is in this area. I have alot of responsibility here at the farm so if I can balance it all, I'd love to have her trained and see what she can do. She is very high energy and would love to work in any capacity. There is absolutely nothing like a fine GSD!
                                PennyG

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Not GSD's, but might be useful information:

                                  Our boys stand for 2,000. Champions, fully health tested, CERF, BAER, OFA hips, patellas, full blood panels with bile acids, DNA tests for hair type, colors carried for, shorthair, and any other test that might turn up later breed specific. Probably something else I'm not remembering right now. Six healthy generations behind them also fully health tested with those six full generations of puppies in a data base with zero congenital health problems for 14 years. Two live puppies or return. Never had a return. To fully health tested bitches, that we get to see the conformation of, and with pedigrees that we approve of only.

                                  Also, we have such a waiting list for puppy buyers that it's not unusual for us to send all the buyers to the bitch owner for a litter sired by one of our boys. Posh has two current outside litters on the ground that we have sent all the buyers for by 3 weeks. Two more outside litters expected this weekend.

                                  www.starbornhavanese.com
                                  Last edited by Tom King; Oct. 12, 2012, 07:08 PM.
                                  www.HistoricHousePreservation.com

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    I understand $2K is pretty standard for GSDs, as it is for IWs, about the price of a puppy.

                                    Things to clarify, whether in a stud dog contract or letter, discussion, etc (but best to have it written down). If the stud dog owner takes a puppy, which pick (usually first or second pick) and at what age is the choice made, and at what age is the puppy taken? Is there any restriction on how or with whom the breeder places the puppies? Must all the puppies be registered, and when? When is the stud fee due? ( sometimes after one puppy is sold, sometimes up in service, especially for frozen semen).

                                    Then, what constitutes a litter, one, two, or three puppies? Some stud contracts specify half the stud fee if there are only two puppies).

                                    How many breedings will there be? If the stud dog will not breed the bitch, should there be an AI, and if so, who should do it and if a vet, who pays?

                                    You should try to get all this worked out and clarified beforehand.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      It is generally the price of one puppy, plus the bitch owner pays for any collection fees and shipping costs. I do not guarantee numbers of puppies etc, as that has many factors influencing it such as timing, bitch fertility, care during pregancy, labor difficulties etc. If the bitch does not get pregnant, I will offer a return service. As far as untitled bitches go, well again, that depends. I have the finest bitch I have ever bred sitting at my house with no titles due to her sustaining a salter harris fracture of the the left hind leg at 10 weeks old. I would not hesitate to breed her. When people approach me iwth an untitled bitch I ask a series of questions and then make my decision as to whether or not I will give service. This however also appllies to a titled bitch as well. Titled or not , the pedigrees, individuals structure, health cetss, and the bitch owners attitude all play a part. I once turned down a dual ch bitch because the owner was a complete wack job. Duals are exceedingly rare in our breed so it was not an easy decision to make. I have not regretted it.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        I think, if the stud dog cannot or will not breed the bitch, the stud dog owner generally pays any costs for an AI. At least that is what I have experienced.

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