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Bladder stones in Male Cat on Raw Diet?!

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  • #21
    The vets that took care of Ralph said it happens somewhat often, sadly most of those cats get PTS because the owners either don't have the money for surgery and after care or don't want to spend that kind of money "on a cat".

    I think that's a good start on changing their water source.
    Mean Girls grow up to be Mean Women

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    • #22
      I feed raw and just like with any commercial food, I think the issues often stem from cats not drinking enough water. Besides changing the water itself, perhaps add bone broth to his meals? Also, cosequin and cranberry. Those won't obviously resolve current issue, but may prevent future occurances
      I\'m not crazy. I\'m just a little unwell.

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      • #23
        Originally posted by Sobriska View Post
        I feed raw and just like with any commercial food, I think the issues often stem from cats not drinking enough water. Besides changing the water itself, perhaps add bone broth to his meals? Also, cosequin and cranberry. Those won't obviously resolve current issue, but may prevent future occurances
        With some/many possibly, Ralph has always drank plenty of water.
        Mean Girls grow up to be Mean Women

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        • #24
          I've been done this path with my cats. I have researched this a ton.

          Stones form based on the wrong urinary ph. If your urinary ph is 7 or 8, then you are likely to have struvite stones form. Too low of a ph is associated with calcium oxalate stone formation. I'm betting this is struvite related.

          Royal Canin is better at lowering urinary ph compared to Hills. So definitely try that first.

          I recommend All cat owners get a urinalysis once or twice a year Or whenever you switch brands of food. If you aren't willing to do that buy Ph strips and collect a urine sample and test it yourself. This is easier to prevent then treat.

          Methionine is a urinary acidifier added to Royal Canin and hills to help reach the target urinary ph. You want to look at low magnesium foods as well. For more info:
          https://www.2ndchance.info/fus.htm

          ​​​​​​Struvite stones are composed of magnesium ammonium phosphate (struvite) and calcium carbonate-apatite [1]. Normal urine is undersaturated with ammonium phosphate, and struvite stone formation occurs only when ammonia production is increased and the urine pH is elevated, which decreases the solubility of phosphate.

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          • #25
            Originally posted by 4horses View Post
            Royal Canin is better at lowering urinary ph compared to Hills. So definitely try that first.

            I recommend All cat owners get a urinalysis once or twice a year Or whenever you switch brands of food. If you aren't willing to do that buy Ph strips and collect a urine sample and test it yourself. This is easier to prevent then treat.

            Methionine is a urinary acidifier added to Royal Canin and hills to help reach the target urinary ph. You want to look at low magnesium foods as well. For more info:
            https://www.2ndchance.info/fus.htm

            ​​​​
            Agree with Royal Canin being the best.

            Ralph gets his urine ph checked once a year and I keep a very close eye on my other male's bathroom habits.

            That's a good article for those just learning about stones.
            Mean Girls grow up to be Mean Women

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            • #26
              OP hasn't come back to her thread, I hope that Dobbie is okay.
              Mean Girls grow up to be Mean Women

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              • Original Poster

                #27
                Hi checking in! Darn... I bought the case of the Hill's Urinary s/d. Dobbie wasn't thrilled with Royal Canin. He continues to be doing good.

                I'm pretty sure he had enough fluids since his pee spots were always a decent size. At the start of all this the only thing that was different was the appearance of the pee spot (darker colour). It was about a week later that the spots got smaller.

                I've gotten a pH kit and a pet water fountain (all three cats are spooked by it....sigh). I've also keeping a very close watch on this litterbox habits and checking about 4 x day for any blockage. I also have the emergency vet phone number close at hand just in case.

                Thanks for info CT and 4horses. I've also been researching the heck out of this. I'll definitely check out your link.


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                • #28
                  Thanks for checking in...keep us informed, eh?
                  Mean Girls grow up to be Mean Women

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                  • Original Poster

                    #29
                    Just wondering...since Dobbie has been on a raw/can diet (I add extra water with psyllium to the raw), wouldn't his pH stay in the normal range since meat is a natural source of methionine?

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                    • #30
                      Royal Canin's kidney diet killed my cat with a recall issue. No one is without stain anymore it seems, but don't feel too bad about not using them. They were incredibly unhelpful and unwilling to admit error.

                      I hope Dobbie improves on his new food!

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        I once had a cat with the exact same symptoms you describe for Dobbie: frequent urination, bloody urine, pH 7, crystals but no stones. He was diagnosed with feline lower urinary tract disease, caused by feline idiopathic cystitis. He was initially treated with an antibiotic to clear up any infection and Metacam to control inflammation. Vet also prescribed Methigel to acidify his urine. (Methigel is a gel sort of like Laxatone.) My cat refused to eat the Methigel and didn't like any canned food. He would only eat his dry food (grain free) and supplement with mice and whatever else he could catch on his travels. Long term I just let him live and eat as he pleased and when he had a flare of his urinary problem I would give him Metacam for 3 -5 days. He was diagnosed when he was 7 and lived into his mid-teens. All this time he was fine except for occasional flares of his cystitis. He died from heart failure and his kidneys were good til the end.

                        Pippigirl, I wonder if your cat also has cystitis and not stones. Are you absolutely sure that Dobbie has stones? I can't tell from the picture of his x-ray whether those are stones or maybe just stool. If there's any doubt, it wouldn't hurt to get a second opinion before you subject him to surgery.

                        The American Veterinary Medical Association has a good article about feline lower urinary tract disease. You can read it here: https://www.avma.org/public/PetCare/Pages/FLUTD.aspx

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                        • Original Poster

                          #32
                          Methigel is like Laxitone in consistency? Good to know. I had added it to my wish list on Amazon. Off it goes. I'm pretty sure it's stones. Then again, there were no crystals in the first urinalysis seen, just wbc & rbc according to the vet. I also double check with the vet about the xray and they confirmed that it was stones.

                          I guess the only way to be certain is to have a look in the bladder? If things continue the way they are (Dobbie being comfortable and acting normally) and there's no emergency, he will get another urinalysis and xray in 2 - 3(?) weeks.

                          Just wondering, if one was to go ahead and add DL-Methionine to the raw diet, is it possible in the long run that it would make the pH too acidic?

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                          • #33
                            If they are STRUVITE stones the cat needs to be fed exclusively a prescription diet meant to dissolve struvite stones until they are gone. If they are calcium oxyalate stones the only way to remove them is surgery.

                            I would not have surgery done on a cat with struvite stones without trying the prescription diet first. Unless the vet feels that the cat needs to have the stones removed immediately, I would try the diet first.

                            But I believe the prescription diet needs to be the only thing fed. This is not something you can half ass feeding what you feel like feeding and then the prescription. That's like giving a half dose of antibiotics since it's not that bad of an infection (for science people I'm aware it's not at all the same but it's a good analogy).

                            You can mess around with the water and a pH kit when the cat is stone free. While the cat still has stones, he is at risk of blocking, which can be fatal.

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                            • Original Poster

                              #34
                              Originally posted by Ruth0552 View Post
                              If they are STRUVITE stones the cat needs to be fed exclusively a prescription diet meant to dissolve struvite stones until they are gone. If they are calcium oxyalate stones the only way to remove them is surgery.

                              I would not have surgery done on a cat with struvite stones without trying the prescription diet first. Unless the vet feels that the cat needs to have the stones removed immediately, I would try the diet first.

                              But I believe the prescription diet needs to be the only thing fed. This is not something you can half ass feeding what you feel like feeding and then the prescription. That's like giving a half dose of antibiotics since it's not that bad of an infection (for science people I'm aware it's not at all the same but it's a good analogy).

                              You can mess around with the water and a pH kit when the cat is stone free. While the cat still has stones, he is at risk of blocking, which can be fatal.
                              Well I'm 'messing around' with a pH kit now and water since it doesn't interfere with prescription diet. It's going to do what it's going to do anyways. I want to know how much a difference the prescription diet makes. We go back to check in with the vet in a couple of weeks. I'm pretty sure they'll have to operate. If he becomes uncomfortable, we go back asap.

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                              • #35
                                I would feed the prescription diet for 2 to 3 months, or however long it takes to dissolve the stones. Once they are gone, you can try a dietary methionine supplement with a non prescription food. Start with 1/4th tablet and adjust accordingly.

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                                • Original Poster

                                  #36
                                  Originally posted by 4horses View Post
                                  I would feed the prescription diet for 2 to 3 months, or however long it takes to dissolve the stones. Once they are gone, you can try a dietary methionine supplement with a non prescription food. Start with 1/4th tablet and adjust accordingly.
                                  Would the vet be able to tell on an x-ray if the stones have diminished in size or would the change be too small to notice? I just worry about this going on too long irritating his bladder lining.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by Pippigirl View Post
                                    If he becomes uncomfortable, we go back asap.
                                    If Dobbie already has blood in his urine and is having small accidents that means the stones are active and are attempting to exit the bladder now and he most likely is uncomfortable/in pain now.

                                    Unless you are beside Dobbie 24/7 you may not know when he becomes more uncomfortable or worse if he gets a blockage which can lead to kidney failure and death within 24 to 48 hours.

                                    Best of luck for both you and Dobbie.
                                    Mean Girls grow up to be Mean Women

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by Pippigirl View Post

                                      Would the vet be able to tell on an x-ray if the stones have diminished in size or would the change be too small to notice? I just worry about this going on too long irritating his bladder lining.
                                      It depends on the size and type of stone(s).

                                      If the prescription diet starts to dissolve his stones be hyper aware that this could indeed cause a very quick and sudden blockage.
                                      Mean Girls grow up to be Mean Women

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