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Questions re: QH/Paint breeders, AQHA, and worth of horses

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  • #61
    Originally posted by JumperFyre View Post
    Well some QH judge emailed me and attacked me saying that his $2500 stallion that he has for sale doesn't need to be gelded! How comical. Why would anyone breed to a stallion only worth a few thousand dollars???? I've paid more than $2500 in semen from stallions worth in the 7 digits. Just shows their level of knowledge and yet they are allowed to judge!

    I just don't understand why people breed low grade horses at all when they know that the market is horrible and they risk sending horses to auctions/kill buyers.

    Btw I'm not saying there aren't high quality horses in every breed, that's obvious. I'm picking on the low grade horses at the moment.
    How about you take the judging exam for AQHA before you talk down about a judges abilities? If you care that much about the breed, join the association ($40 membership) and attend conferences and present a well researched arguement. And Wikipedia and the internet are not viable rreference.

    So because you spent $2500 on sperm makes your horse better? I know of a breeder who sold a weanling for $30k. The stud fee on the stallion? $2000.

    Don't be so close minded.
    Only two emotions belong in the saddle: One is a sense of humor. The other is patience.

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #62
      Originally posted by Fillabeana View Post
      Whoa....uh, maybe when you go to college you should take some courses in economics. And marketing.

      If you limit breeding, you have to make up for your income somewhere else. It costs money to inspect stallions. I can't see how you could possibly make up for the income lost by limiting registrations/breeding by inspecting stallions.
      Other than making horse inspections; here's some piece of facts off the AQHA website seeing as no one was brave enough to answer my question:
      Holsteiner is charging me $470 to register a weanling, AQHA only charges $30. There's something wrong with this equation. You don't want a registered horse, fine, that's your choice. It matters to a lot of people though.

      So because you spent $2500 on sperm makes your horse better? I know of a breeder who sold a weanling for $30k. The stud fee on the stallion? $2000.
      Umm yes it happens rarely or if the owner just paid that amount because they have a lot of money or thought the horse was "pretty".

      Comment


      • #63
        The weanling in question was by a Congress Champion and producer and out of a Congress champion and Congress/WCproducer. Not just pretty. You cant judge a studs quality on fee alone.

        And the $30 registration fee is for weanlings under the age of 7 months that are not the result of AI or ET. DNA is $40, incentive fund is $125. If the foal is a decendant of Impressive, HYPP test is required ($40). Testing for genetic diseases is $85.

        So lets tally that up again.

        Registration $30
        DNA $40
        Incentive Fund $125
        Genetic Testing $85 (includes HYPP)

        $280 to register a foal less than 7 months old. Price goes up from there.

        Price does not equal quality. Get off your high horse before you get altitude sickness. As others and I have said, if you want to help QHs (and not just judge them) join AQHA and let your voice be known. Ranting and trying to act superior on a bb won't help anything.
        Only two emotions belong in the saddle: One is a sense of humor. The other is patience.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by JumperFyre View Post
          Other than making horse inspections; here's some piece of facts off the AQHA website seeing as no one was brave enough to answer my question:
          Holsteiner is charging me $470 to register a weanling, AQHA only charges $30. There's something wrong with this equation. You don't want a registered horse, fine, that's your choice. It matters to a lot of people though.
          "Brave enough?" I have no idea how much it costs to register an AQHA, nor do I care enough to actually go to their website and look.

          The $30 AQHA is simply a registry like the Jockey Club or the AKC. I assume your $470 subsidizes, in part, the inspection process. Congratulations.

          There is nothing "wrong with this picture" - they are simply different types of registries. Period.

          You can argue this until the end of time, but it is most unlikely that the AQHA or the Jockey Club or the AKC or any number of other registries will start doing inspections in order to register. If you don't approve, then just buy/breed from a different registry. No biggie.

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #65
            Originally posted by bugsynskeeter View Post
            The weanling in question was by a Congress Champion and producer and out of a Congress champion and Congress/WCproducer. Not just pretty. You cant judge a studs quality on fee alone.

            And the $30 registration fee is for weanlings under the age of 7 months that are not the result of AI or ET. DNA is $40, incentive fund is $125. If the foal is a decendant of Impressive, HYPP test is required ($40). Testing for genetic diseases is $85.

            So lets tally that up again.

            Registration $30
            DNA $40
            Incentive Fund $125
            Genetic Testing $85 (includes HYPP)

            $280 to register a foal less than 7 months old. Price goes up from there.

            Price does not equal quality. Get off your high horse before you get altitude sickness. As others and I have said, if you want to help QHs (and not just judge them) join AQHA and let your voice be known. Ranting and trying to act superior on a bb won't help anything.

            Which of those fees are mandatory though? My registering fees don't include the inspection fee.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by JumperFyre View Post
              Other than making horse inspections; here's some piece of facts off the AQHA website seeing as no one was brave enough to answer my question:
              Holsteiner is charging me $470 to register a weanling, AQHA only charges $30. There's something wrong with this equation. You don't want a registered horse, fine, that's your choice. It matters to a lot of people though.
              Well depending on how you look at it, the low registration fee is a *good* thing--it encourages people to go ahead and register their foals, so that their heritage is known and so they are eligible to participate in breed-restricted activities.
              The difference between with and without papers has saved more than one horse from the slaughterhouse you decry.
              "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

              ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #67
                Originally posted by S1969 View Post
                "Brave enough?" I have no idea how much it costs to register an AQHA, nor do I care enough to actually go to their website and look.

                The $30 AQHA is simply a registry like the Jockey Club or the AKC. I assume your $470 subsidizes, in part, the inspection process. Congratulations.

                There is nothing "wrong with this picture" - they are simply different types of registries. Period.

                You can argue this until the end of time, but it is most unlikely that the AQHA or the Jockey Club or the AKC or any number of other registries will start doing inspections in order to register. If you don't approve, then just buy/breed from a different registry. No biggie.
                Yes I don't think the biggest breeder of horses in the USA should just happily give out papers without first being approved. I think ethically it's a bad move. I also believe the higher rates for either registering or added inspections, would boost AQHA income and at the same time, limit backyard breeders & low grade breeders. Would it end slaughter or rescue groups, no. Would it help, yes. Could the AQHA change, yes if the right people cared enough. It's about looking at the big picture.

                Comment


                • #68
                  You are conflating two entirely different methods of maintaining a breed registry.
                  They are different systems, and each has its merits.

                  One, used by most traditional "breeds", is based on pedigree alone. That is the model followed by breeds such as Quarter Horses, Morgans, Arabs, Welsh ponies/cobs, TBs, etc. If both parents were registered, the offspring is eligible.
                  Period.

                  The other is not so much a breed, as a registry for animals of a certain "type". To ensure the animal possesses such a type, inspection is necessary. That is the model used by most of the warmblood studbooks. In this model, an animal may be registered in an entirely different book than its dam or sire, which is something the breeders in the first grop would find incredible.

                  It certainly has its merits, but it is far from the only game in town, and it is *not* something you are ever going to see being shoved down the throats of the breeders in the first group, so you might as well quit complaining about it.
                  "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                  ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by JumperFyre View Post
                    Yes I don't think the biggest breeder of horses in the USA should just happily give out papers without first being approved. I think ethically it's a bad move.
                    I don't think the AQHA actually breeds any horses. People breed horses, and they either choose to do it well, or not. People make choices. Registries just record what they chose to do.

                    Could the AQHA change into what many would consider an elitist registry? Sure. Will it make any difference in the number of horses that get sent to slaughter? I doubt it.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      JumperFyre, how many of those horses that you see at the auction actually have AQHA papers?

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Why do people breed to a $2500 stallion or sell $1000 foals? Because not everybody needs, wants, or can afford a $35,000 Warmblood. Some want a plain, quiet horse to trail ride or do ranch work or for the kids to do 4H on. Probably the vast majority of horse owners will never set foot in the show arena. They don't need something with perfect conformation, world class bloodlines, or performance credentials a mile long. They need utility.

                        In an ideal world, would only the very best stock be bred? Certainly. But we don't live in an ideal world, we live in an imperfect reality.
                        Flickr

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Yes I don't think the biggest breeder of horses in the USA should just happily give out papers without first being approved.
                          Ironically, the AQHA does have quality requirements for half Thoroughbred offspring of an AQHA regular studbook parent. The appendix registry will give 'regular' papers to a half-TB that performs in AQHA-sanctioned competition to a set standard. In the past, that has been AQHA breed shows, and AQHA racing. They have expanded the list of eligible competitions to include more in the recent past. I believe they added dressage to the list.
                          So really, that is a type of 'inspection', though it applies to only offspring of a Jockey Club papered parent.

                          I have a really nice appendix mare that is the result of breeding an OTTB mare (that was probably free or under $1000) and a ranch horse stallion. The stallion was not likely worth a market value of more than $5000.

                          As a weanling, my mare would have been worth about $600, and there are plenty of people who might have bought her and turned her out on their own ranch to grow up.

                          Right now, she's sound and good at her job, and worth a lot more than $600. If she were a gelding, and good for roping as well, she'd be worth somewhere in the $10,000 to $15,000 range; that would take another year or two of using her for ranch work.

                          There are plenty of cash-poor but land/feed resource 'rich' horse/cattlemen who can, and do, buy a $500 to $1500 weanling or yearling. They will take the colt and get it broke, and then USE it for working a real cattle ranch. Once the horse really knows its job, and is useful, it is worth a whole lot more; as VaqueroToro posted from the Wyo sale, you're looking at $7500 on up to $20,000 for a really good 8 year old gelding. And you don't need papers to command that price if the horse is sound, gentle, and able.

                          The economics would not work for these horses if someone were paying board for 8 years, or paying for training and lessons beyond some ranchers who have someone else ride their colt for a month or three.

                          So no real need for inspections in my view.

                          I do think having well educated judges who could give a 'permanent' conformation score against a standard would be a good idea in lieu of 'halter' competition, but really limiting registration is not likely for the AQHA.

                          And as far as what fees are required beyond the $30: if the horse is the result of AI (fresh or frozen), the $40 DNA fee is a requirement.
                          The genetic testing fee would only be required if the foal was the offspring of a known carrier of HYPP. However, there are other genetic defect problems that occur in the AQHA breed, and if there are known carriers of HERDA or another recessive genetic defect, most buyers will want the genetic testing done anyway. So not necessarily a requirement, but a necessity for honest marketing of a good foal with HERDA or something else in the pedigree.

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #73
                            Originally posted by OneGrayPony View Post
                            JumperFyre, how many of those horses that you see at the auction actually have AQHA papers?
                            One auction tonight had 3 adult QH's, 2 with papers for sure. Some QH babies too.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Ok, and did the babies have papers?

                              You know that auctions out east frequently see warmbloods. With papers.

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #75
                                Originally posted by OneGrayPony View Post
                                Ok, and did the babies have papers?

                                You know that auctions out east frequently see warmbloods. With papers.
                                Not sure.

                                Are these warmbloods true warmbloods or are they really draft crosses or friesian crosses?? No matter what horse or breed, if the owner is irresponsible, they can end up at auction or slaughter. There's been many horse racing champions saved from slaughter after winning thousands of dollars.

                                Comment


                                • #76
                                  Right. That's exactly right (and my point). And yes, many of them come through with papers. Lots of saddlebreds out here too, that you know were bought and sold for many thousands of dollars during their working lives.

                                  The reason I ask about the papers is because you will have many horses at auction listed as quarter horses, but not necessarily be quarter horses. Those are typically unregistered fuglies from someone's backyard breeding program. They are not registered animals, and have zero to do with the AQHA. They aren't bred by a stud with cheap stud fees or with papers at all.

                                  Your perception of the "quarter horse problem" is likely due to the part of the country you are in. On the east coast, the horses that come through auction are typically TB, Standies, Saddlebreds, A good few Arabs, and somewhat inexplicably lots of minis.

                                  The AQHA does not promote irresponsible breeding any more than the KWPN does. They make no money nor membership from the unregistered byb colt. The membership fees, registration fees etc are all broken down in part so that people know what they are paying for. It's a totally different world.

                                  For instance, in the QH world, in order to show an animal (as an amateur) I need to own it. A junior can lease a horse but it needs to be on record with the AQHA. They actively try to keep ordinary people involved with the breed, because they DON'T want it to be the exclusive pastime of the rich.

                                  I showed hunters for years, and have recently switched to the AQHA world. Way more fun, nicer people, and I'm having a blast. Many more "do it yourself-ers". It's a good thing.

                                  Comment


                                  • #77
                                    Originally posted by JumperFyre View Post
                                    Not sure.

                                    Are these warmbloods true warmbloods or are they really draft crosses or friesian crosses?? No matter what horse or breed, if the owner is irresponsible, they can end up at auction or slaughter. There's been many horse racing champions saved from slaughter after winning thousands of dollars.
                                    "Auctions" are places where commerce is conducted, horses offered for sale and buyers purchase them.
                                    I seem to think that you consider "auctions" to be "bad"?

                                    Not necessarily, is a very important part of the horse business.
                                    Many very nice horses sell thru auctions because there is where more buyers traditionally have been found.

                                    In the information age we have today, there are other avenues to sell we didn't have before, but that doesn't mean the auction way is bad in itself.

                                    Just think about all those warmblood auctions.

                                    Comment


                                    • #78
                                      I opened this thread just absolutely psyched to see happy QH ads. How disappointing this thread has turned out to be!

                                      Comment


                                      • #79
                                        Originally posted by cnm161 View Post
                                        I opened this thread just absolutely psyched to see happy QH ads. How disappointing this thread has turned out to be!
                                        I too first assumed this was about how to determine the worth of specific horses.

                                        This is the internet, you never know what you will find, user beware.

                                        Comment

                                        • Original Poster

                                          #80
                                          Originally posted by Bluey View Post
                                          "Auctions" are places where commerce is conducted, horses offered for sale and buyers purchase them.
                                          I seem to think that you consider "auctions" to be "bad"?

                                          Not necessarily, is a very important part of the horse business.
                                          Many very nice horses sell thru auctions because there is where more buyers traditionally have been found.

                                          In the information age we have today, there are other avenues to sell we didn't have before, but that doesn't mean the auction way is bad in itself.

                                          Just think about all those warmblood auctions.
                                          Warmblood sport horse auctions don't have kill buyers and sell horses for $5.

                                          I'm referring to auctions that take every breed, starving horses, old & young and where the kill buyers come every month.

                                          Comment

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