AQHA is promoting "extension of the gaits" aimed at judges!

[aktill]

Well, but both are true of the western pleasure horse. If you look at the way they are built, that's typically how a good one moves somewhat naturally. I've seen babies on the longe line jogging very slowly and loping with a level (and slow) topline.

I actually object to this argument though I've heard it MANY times, because it's twisting the definition of natural. They've been SELECTIVELY bred to move like this, it's not natural for a horse to do so. Even then, it's not healthy or conducive to soundness to move like that, even for the ones who's tendency is to move that way by default.

Look how hollow the back is on the saddlebred. Even though that's in keeping with the horse's conformation, that isn't very good.

The back of that horse is not hollow if you envision his skeletal structure. His head has been raised in the style that saddlebreds are shown in which makes that deceiving, but unlike modern competition, the base of his neck is not dropped in the process. It's why I used that photo rather than a more modern one...same reason I used Alerich rather than a more recent dressage photo.

Compare a WP horse with a dressage horse in long and low. That might be a more apt comparison. There will still be differences, but it is more appropriate.

WP is analogous to the exact opposite of what long and low is when ridden correctly. Long and low is not just riding with a low head and loose reins, though even many dressage riders don't get that. Done properly, long and low asks the horse to reach into the bridle (extending the top line), reach down to do so (raising the back), but to tuck and engage the pelvis (not having it straggling behind with an improperly flexed SI).

WP as shown is just plodding along on the forehand, backed completely off the bit, with the head lowered. Because the horse isn't reaching into the bridle lowering the head serves no purpose, since it's not making use of stretching the nuchal ligament to help support the back. Likewise since there's no engagement of the SI, there's none of the physiotheraputic stretch of proper long and low.

The spur stop is not widely used and is even controversial within WP circles.

I debate the "not widely used" part, in light of these and the many "how do I retrain this former WP horse" threads that are all over the place.
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/ar.../t-390745.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western...op_controversy

[aqhadreamer]

What show was that? I went to a local show and heard a similar story. Lots of the "outside" horses were pinning and the regular bnt's with horses who had their heads on the ground did not pin.

Eastern Canada

[aktill]

Do working ranches have a use for those slow moving downhill horses, or are they strictly bred for the show pen? If the later, I think there is a whole "western" industry that doesn't honor the western horse at all, but has invented a horse of its own.

Not that I'm aware of.

BTW, did anyone else note in the article the comment about slow being pinned high because it's DIFFICULT. I thought a pleasure horse was by definition easy to ride.

I imagine it's quite difficult to make a horse move that improperly while being as push-button as possible. Rewarding difficulty shouldn't be the goal however...rewarding correct movement should.

The kicker becomes getting people to agree on what "correct" actually is, however. There's no external arbitrator of correct (ie a time clock etc) and the horses are rarely particularly mature in the big money classes, so people can kid themselves about these standards.

[aktill]

They did mention that they could/would call for the extension, however it might mean that only one or two horses in the ring might need to step it up a gear.

I don't get this? If they're asking for extension, shouldn't EVERYONE be asked to extend whatever gait they're in, relative to what they were doing before?

If they actually mean "this is the part where you actually make your horse move more correctly" and thus only a few have to do this apparently, why are they trying to call it "extension"?

Weird.

[aktill]

I am somewhat bothered that people have said they have a slow moving QH and wanted to try ranch pleasure. When it was introduced, I was hopeful it would bring QH back to where it was meant to be..... a working horse! However, I have heard many people say they want to try ranch pleasure with their wp horse. I hope it does not become a disaster like WP!

This is a bit encouraging:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uexLqB80TFc

Not so much some of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7XfhckFS80

[OneGrayPony]

WP is analogous to the exact opposite of what long and low is when ridden correctly. Long and low is not just riding with a low head and loose reins, though even many dressage riders don't get that. Done properly, long and low asks the horse to reach into the bridle (extending the top line), reach down to do so (raising the back), but to tuck and engage the pelvis (not having it straggling behind with an improperly flexed SI).

Right - and a GOOD WP horse with a GOOD trainer does everything above, but does not rely on the bit. You should go read some of the discussions on it from the pleasure horse forums. It's HARD to read because they use terminology that is different than I understand, but once you get around that, they are still talking about moving the different pieces of the horse around to get them to actually step underneath themselves and carry tremendous weight on the hocks.

I actually object to this argument though I've heard it MANY times, because it's twisting the definition of natural. They've been SELECTIVELY bred to move like this, it's not natural for a horse to do so. Even then, it's not healthy or conducive to soundness to move like that, even for the ones who's tendency is to move that way by default.

We selectively bred each of those horses to move the way they do. Warmbloods were selectively bred for sit and an uphill carriage in front. Saddlebreds were selectively bred for a level back, and an uphill carriage in front.

When I look at that saddlebred, yes, I see his skeletal structure, but I ALSO see him lowering his back and not raising it. Why? Because that's the way they wanted them.

I don't get this? If they're asking for extension, shouldn't EVERYONE be asked to extend whatever gait they're in, relative to what they were doing before?

aktill, again - what they are saying is - "don't restrict the gait. slow is fine, but stuffed in front is not. If we see too many stuffed in front, we'll call for extension. If you're not stuffed in front, you're fine. If you're stuffed in front, move out."

[aktill]

Hmmm, I don't think it's just seat. And spur "stop" is sortof a misnomer. Here's how it works. All with spurs. (mine are blunt rowels unless he's not paying attention-then we go to the pointy ones-my legs are old...)

Light bumps to get started (stop to walk), another light bump or several to jog, outside spur roll to lope. Inside leg supports (calf). PRESS with both spurs at any gait to lift the belly and stay collected. This usually results in a slow down and a head lower (i.e., back up/head down). If I want to actually stop-close both legs and both spurs and lightly lift my hand (sound familiar?). Say whoa. If you're riding him, hang on because it's a dead stop from any gait!

That's incredibly intricate use of spurs I'll grant, but having never taken lessons in WP that's not what I've ever been taught by anyone.

In the traditions I know, spurs should simply be a way of reinforcing leg and seat aids that the horse is either missing, misinterpreting, or not prioritizing. On a refined horse, they should serve no purpose other than boot jewelery, or if you use jinglebobs or heel chains, de música para mis oídos.

Using spurs to stop is why a WP horse can be so dang hard to retrain for any actual working western or english use. The only reason the spur stop seems to have evolved is simply because extreme rein drape is such a priority. It's an evolution of basic "kick to go, pull to stop" to "kick to go, push to stop"...installing buttons galore, but only using spurs to do so.

I'm not trying to tell anyone how to ride, but just to show how different this sort of riding is from cow horse type riding:

Light bumps to get started (stop to walk), another light bump or several to jog, outside spur roll to lope.

Spurs never enter the equation when it comes to forward. If you touch the horse with both spurs at once it stops the swing of the horse's barrel. The barrel needs to swing to one side to allow the opposite side hind room to advance. As such, the horse can't walk if you clamp his barrel in place, or at minimum you're asking him to walk off pushing through your spurs.

If he doesn't walk off from my seat, I use no more than a couple of extremely light bumps with my heel (using no more force than possible without any tightness if my seat), and if that doesn't work immediately I use the tail of my mecate or romal to bring up the energy.

Using leg cues for go is a bad plan because any tension in your leg will make your seat less secure. That's why it's much safer on a horse that's moving out to use the reins, since your seat isn't affected.

Using spurs for go in the way you've described also means you'll never really be able to go from halt to gallop cleanly, or do any transition which skips gaits. Skipping trot, especially, is the best way to ensure that you'll get a good extended trot. If the horse always lopes from the trot, eventually he'll clue in that it's easier to lope slowly than extend (in the more global sense of the term) his trot. You'll never develop a ground covering long trot.

Inside leg supports (calf). PRESS with both spurs at any gait to lift the belly and stay collected.
This usually results in a slow down and a head lower (i.e., back up/head down).

In addition to the issue of stopping the barrel, pressing with the spur to lift the belly is no different then someone sucking in their gut and pretending they don't have a few extra pounds there. Defensively lifting the back is not the same as engaging the core. If the horse's head drops, it's no different then the action you make when you avoid getting punched in the gut.

If I want to actually stop-close both legs and both spurs and lightly lift my hand (sound familiar?). Say whoa. If you're riding him, hang on because it's a dead stop from any gait!

A cow horse stops off the seat, not the legs. Closing the legs lightens the seat. Rotating the pelvis back should drop his hind end into the dirt, not closing the leg.

[OneGrayPony]

Using leg cues for go is a bad plan because any tension in your leg will make your seat less secure. That's why it's much safer on a horse that's moving out to use the reins, since your seat isn't affected.

In this way YOU differ from the rest of the horse world.

I agree with you, and train that way, but that is NOT how hunters and eventers "go".

[OneGrayPony]

The spur cue that she is talking about has the same timing as the dressage aid, which is to push the inside hind underneath the horse. The end result is the big step behind and then the release in front allows the horse to follow the bit down.

[CruzN]

Do working ranches have a use for those slow moving downhill horses, or are they strictly bred for the show pen? If the later, I think there is a whole "western" industry that doesn't honor the western horse at all, but has invented a horse of its own.

Yes, they are breeding horses only for the show pen, just like how hunters, jumpers, dressage horses and many others are bred just for the show ring.

Name one discipline that honours it's roots. It doesn't matter what discipline we are talking about, whether its WP, hunters, gaited horses, etc, NONE of them are useful in how they were originally intentioned.

[gogaitedgo]

Yes, they are breeding horses only for the show pen, just like how hunters, jumpers, dressage horses and many others are bred just for the show ring.

Name one discipline that honours it's roots. It doesn't matter what discipline we are talking about, whether its WP, hunters, gaited horses, etc, NONE of them are useful in how they were originally intentioned.

I was just reading volume 6 of the quarter horse legends series. Dynamic Deluxe couldn't lift his head. COULDN'T LIFT HIS HEAD. Way to breed genetic defects.

[spotnnotfarm]

Yes, they are breeding horses only for the show pen, just like how hunters, jumpers, dressage horses and many others are bred just for the show ring.

Name one discipline that honours it's roots. It doesn't matter what discipline we are talking about, whether its WP, hunters, gaited horses, etc, NONE of them are useful in how they were originally intentioned.

I have to disagree with you. Many AQHA disciplines honor the QH's roots. WP does not. A rancher would never get work done on a horse that moved that slow. The ranch pleasure classes will hopefully bring back how a QH should look. However, I am worried it will get slowed down as well.

I show in ASHA and your horse must be forward moving. At my last show we had a low extended walk score, while he extended his shoulders, his speed was pretty slow ( he was very tired from the clinic the day before as we'll as the 100% humidity!). His walk would have still lapped the WP horse by 100%!

[aktill]

Right - and a GOOD WP horse with a GOOD trainer does everything above, but does not rely on the bit. You should go read some of the discussions on it from the pleasure horse forums. It's HARD to read because they use terminology that is different than I understand, but once you get around that, they are still talking about moving the different pieces of the horse around to get them to actually step underneath themselves and carry tremendous weight on the hocks.

I've already read "The Emperor's New Clothes", so let's look at photos or videos instead. Please feel free to link to any photos or videos where a horse is demonstrating what you're talking about above.

My contribution will be as follows, following my understanding of what Dr. Deb Bennett outlines in her "Principles of Conformation Analysis" series. Not saying I represent her work, but it's what I learned from.

The markup shows the pelvic structure and a line linking the point of hip with C6 (which roughly approximates the balance line of the horse).

I say again visually that WP is kidding themselves in terms of taking any meaningful load to the hind end. There's no tucking of the pelvis, nor any attempt to move load from up from to behind. Note also the major conformation difference between a horse selected for WP and two other ranch-type builds:
http://www.easphotography.com/Intern...therMarkup.png

We selectively bred each of those horses to move the way they do. Warmbloods were selectively bred for sit and an uphill carriage in front.
Saddlebreds were selectively bred for a level back, and an uphill carriage in front.

Uphill and downhill can't be one way for the back and another for the front end. That said, yes, ideal saddlebreds are built less uphill than ideal dressage horses because 5-gaited horses need a balance that allows for ventroflexion in rack.

Comparing that to the current discussion, the difference comparing to WP is that most other disciplines (halter being another exception) have selected for INCREASED athleticism, not for pathological movement patterns.

When I look at that saddlebred, yes, I see his skeletal structure, but I ALSO see him lowering his back and not raising it. Why? Because that's the way they wanted them.

The only gait that benefits from ventroflexion out of their lineup is rack, and that's only because (like Icelandic tolt) some degree of ventroflexion is REQUIRED to allow the gait.
http://www.gaitedhorses.net/Articles...roflexed.shtml
MODERN saddlebred riding is to its roots as modern WP is to WP in the past.

As for the photo, I think we'll have to agree to disagree. Since the shot was taken around 1895, I can't find a confo photo for comparison, but this horse seems similar:
http://www.easphotography.com/Intern...terPeavine.png

aktill, again - what they are saying is - "don't restrict the gait. slow is fine, but stuffed in front is not. If we see too many stuffed in front, we'll call for extension. If you're not stuffed in front, you're fine. If you're stuffed in front, move out."

So by that definition "extension" means "stop restricting your horse's gaits"? Bit odd to have to nag competitors to ride correctly DURING a competition.

Enjoying these discussions BTW, thanks all!

[aktill]

In this way YOU differ from the rest of the horse world.
I agree with you, and train that way, but that is NOT how hunters and eventers "go".

I started in hunters, and it was what I was told then too. Don't just kick, use a crop...same difference. Likewise in dressage. Same thing from any vaquero trainer.

Again, good horsemanship is universal.

[Fillabeana]

Do working ranches have a use for those slow moving downhill horses

Me, not really unless it's a nursing mare and she'll adopt an orphaned/twin calf.

As for a naturally 'really quiet', slow moving horse to put a novice/cousin/auntie on, they don't work very well. They can't keep up, and tend to tune everything (rider, cows, gopher holes) out. You want a horse that has a little life to it, naturally, and wants to go move the cows. Otherwise, Aunt Betsy is miserable, a half mile behind, and kicking until she is really tired.

My TB recently had a reaction to a flu/rhino shot. He was moving around like a 'Western Pleasure' horse. I was mortified, he needed some IV Banamine (as per vet's instructions) for two days. He was short strided and couldn't lift his head much above knee level. And he really looked JUST like a typical WP video, minus the thick fake tail and bling.

[Fillabeana]

In the traditions I know, spurs should simply be a way of reinforcing leg and seat aids that the horse is either missing, misinterpreting, or not prioritizing. On a refined horse, they should serve no purpose other than boot jewelery, or if you use jinglebobs or heel chains, de música para mis oídos.

Amen.
I asked my helper if I should use spurs on my horse- he rides my horse in spurs.
He replied that I'd just p!$$ my horse off.

A week later, at the Buck Brannaman clinic, I heard Buck state that, "A little kick is not a feel. A little squeeze is not a feel".
And at that point, I knew that until I could get my horse on the aids, 'in front of my leg', spurs would simply dull him, or make him mad.
I'm looking forward to someday wearing boot jewelry, but I understand that I don't get to wear spurs on my horse until I don't need spurs on my horse to keep him in front of my leg. In other words, I can wear spurs when I won't use them very much at all. Which doesn't mean that a more clued-in rider wouldn't appropriately wear them on my horse.

Anyway, Amen, Aktill!

[OneGrayPony]

Aktill, in the hunter discipline, George Morris himself has said that you should not remove the calf from the horse. Therefore, that is not the same. Again, I think it blocks forward motion, but it does not make it the same as you are describing (which I, once again, agree with as a matter of course).

I'll deal with the other pieces when I'm in front of a computer and not on my phone, but I will urge you to look at photos particularly in the lope. There are some caveats to that, of course. You have to compare modern to modern. That's # 1.

[Canaqua]

Oh, gee times have changed. I've never ridden Western, so I may not know what I'm talking about . Back in the mid-1970s my Children's Hunter was a big, gray, AQHA gelding. We did decently well at AHSA rated shows (precursor to USEF for the young folks). This was back when TBs ruled the scene and forward and brilliance was rewarded, so my QH wasn't a particularly dull horse. One time we ended up at a big open show and there was an AQHA judge there, so I decided to sign up for some AQHA classes. I think it was AQHA English Pleasure...the judge commented that I had a nice horse, but that he needed to move foward more . Ha...forward enough for AHSA hunters, but not enough for AQHA English Pleasure. Imagine that.

[Ruby2shoes]

My rehabbing wp one hot crimson baby stifle surgery horse is spur stop trained. It's not difficult to utilize and not confusing to him as we retrain him to extend and move out and be healthier on his joints. I like it in fact and I'm prepared to get ripped into about it. It's a nice thing to apply a constant pressure with legs and have him stop. Legs are fine. Spurs make the job easier but aren't really necessary. This is how he was trained and is in fact one of the only aspects of his training that I do not resent. Most of the other things that were done to him contributed to his lameness. He stops with the reins. He stops with a "whoa" but if you want to sit deep and ask with (assertive) pressure from both calves or (lightly) spurs, he will do that too. It's not a big deal or a frustrating issue in his retraining to be a normal moving horse. In fact... Oh no what have I done???!!!... I have trained my ottb some "spur stopping" too. Meaning instead of hauling on his mouth as my only option when he's high strung and not giving a rats ass about my seat or voice or half halts, I have another tool to put into play. Not sure what the huge flaming attack on spur stop is but when used appropriately it's a lot more humane than putting a bit into play. And really? It's pretty common so if you don't even know that much about it maybe relax a little on the fireball posts until you educate yourself a bit more first.

[aktill]

Aktill, in the hunter discipline, George Morris himself has said that you should not remove the calf from the horse.

Exactly! In order for a rider to kick, they need to disconnect their leg from the horse, and they'll be late by the time they make contact again. Get the horse ahead of the leg with your life, seat and crop and it's not an issue.

Finally got a chance to watch Mr Morris a few months ago up here, very cool stuff. The DVD set they did with Buck called Three Masters was the first time I'd seen anything "live" he'd done, and to see him in person was interesting. Doesn't hold anything in, that's for sure lol