• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Western Dressage confusion! UPDATED!

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Western Dressage confusion! UPDATED!

    OK, where to begin? I'm very interested in Western Dressage, but it seems to be non-existent in AZ! I'm very confused as to which is the "governing" association. There seems to be quite a few, and each have different rules from each other! Based on another thread, I went to what seemed to be the largest, most recommended association (can't recall which one right now, of course), and found that there was no AZ affiliate! I also googled Western Dressage AZ to find someone to get lessons from, and found no one! Help????
    Last edited by JumpQH; Oct. 13, 2012, 03:00 PM.

  • #2
    Western Dressage Assn. of America was considered the original, I think. That group seems to have split into 2 factions: a group that wants to be judged according to USEF/USDF standards (under the WDAA umbrella), and the "cowboy dressage" group that wants to create its own standards/tests and has reinvented the arena/letters. There is also a North American Western Dressage organization.

    In my area (Texas), western dressage tests--most following WDAA--are offered at lots of the schooling shows. I haven't found much offered by the national or state affiliates, but the grassroots clubs have been receptive of it. Contact your local organizations and ask if they'll offer it. It's a blast!

    Comment


    • #3
      Talk to the people who put on the local dressage shows. Ask them to offer the classes. Usually they are open to the idea since it can bring more entries. The guidelines for judging and also the patterns are available on the internet (pm me if you can't find them). In areas where there isn't a circuit type thing for WD, joining in with the dressage shows makes sense.
      If you read the judging guidelines and look at the score sheet you can see what areas you should give extra attention . I am going to attend a clinic to become better informed. I would also suggest you "like" a couple of the WDA's on FB.. even if they are not in you area. They are good for information sharing,videos and lots of people trying out this new discipline.
      I haven't done WD (yet) but have a few Moms that pleasure ride western who are already wanting to give it a shot at a schooling show next month. I'll probably toss a western saddle on one of my H/J's and do the show for fun as well.. and to add to the party atmosphere.

      Watch out DQ's, the Bling is in the Ring !
      I can explain it TO you,but I can't understand it FOR you

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #4
        Thanks for the help!

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi;

          I do WD in So. Cal. So far, not much going on here, but seems to be more than you have. I would be more than happy to talk w/you in two weeks as I believe I will be at the Ariz. Futurity (ASB) horse show in Scottsdale then. PM me if you want to talk.

          As someone at the ASHA decided that I'd make a good idiot, I'm our designated breed "ambassador" for WD, so have had to learn about the various organizations.

          Currently? There are at least 5. Two are recognized as affiliates of USEF, but there is no "governing body" as of yet. WDAA is one of them, as is North American Western Dressage (NAWD). WDAA uses the tests that are in the USEF rule book (in the Morgan section). NAWD has their own. Midwestern Dressage was on their own, now they are affiliated with NAWD. Northwest Western Dressage seems to be doing the same - but - they are using the USEF tests, not the NAWD tests (grabbing head and banging now). There is something called "Southwest" WD, but I'm thinking that the NAWD folks grabbed the name and created a website ...

          Then, there is Cowboy Dressage. This is the pros group. (Kind of like there is natural horsemanship as a discipline, but then there are all the different "branded" trainers that you can get levels at, etc.). Cowboy Dressage is a tm of Eitan and Debbie Beth-Halachmy (sp).

          And - they too have their own set of tests AND their own court (different sized).

          To compound it further? You can go to a USDF show - and if they offer WD, they may well ask you to do the USDF tests (ask me how I know ...).

          In any case, I'll be at Friesian Nationals this week competing on my Saddlebred (lol) in the OTAB WD class(es).

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #6
            UPDATE: I have talked to several dressage trainers (I have yet to find anyone who does dressage in a Western saddle) and am going to start taking lessons. The trainer I chose stated that dressage is dressage in any tack - I liked that! I was trying to decide between Ranch Horse Pleasure, which I could show in the frequent AQHA shows out here, or Western Dressage, which is non-existent, and discovered that when it came down to it, I REALLY wanted the Western Dressage. I'm excited to start lessons! I'm also hoping that by the time I'd be ready to show, WD will have hit the West Coast and be available at shows!

            Comment


            • #7
              "Dressage is dressage in any tack"--sounds to me like a true dressage trainer! Good for her/him and for you!

              You may already have found it, but here is a link to the Western Dressage Association of America's web site:


              http://westerndressageassociation.org/

              They don't list an Arizona affiliate yet, but you could e-mail them and ask if there is one pending. A few years ago, where I live, there was no western dressage; now we have people showing in our local dressage association shows (only two shows a year, but they have added gaited too). I think they use the AMHA dressage tests, which may be the ones the USEF uses too.

              http://www.usef.org/_IFrames/breedsd...sageTests.aspx

              Good luck!
              Founder of the People Who Prefer COTH Over FB Clique
              People Who Hate to Rush to Kill Wildlife Clique!
              "I Sing Silly Songs to My Animals!" Clique

              Comment


              • #8
                I love dressage. I love western pleasure. I love Morgans.

                So, I was intrigued that our Morgan Grand Nationals offered western dressage. And luckily with live feed.

                I'm just not seeing it as a viable sport. Something fun to do with your horse? Sure! Why not! But I didn't see anything more than a pattern class. And more importantly, for me, I didn't see the potential to BECOME anything more than a pattern class.

                I'll ride a class or two if it comes to our local show...I can see the benefit of having a horse responsive to the aids...push button. But I just can't see how it can be used to develop the athlete in the same way that traditional dressage does.
                Ride like you mean it.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by ezduzit View Post
                  I love dressage. I love western pleasure. I love Morgans.

                  So, I was intrigued that our Morgan Grand Nationals offered western dressage. And luckily with live feed.

                  I'm just not seeing it as a viable sport. Something fun to do with your horse? Sure! Why not! But I didn't see anything more than a pattern class. And more importantly, for me, I didn't see the potential to BECOME anything more than a pattern class.

                  I'll ride a class or two if it comes to our local show...I can see the benefit of having a horse responsive to the aids...push button. But I just can't see how it can be used to develop the athlete in the same way that traditional dressage does.
                  I agree, it is no fish or fowl.

                  I wish the ones that are promoting that would make it it's own thing, with good riding from both, dressage and western disciplines, not a half backed mixture no one quite knows what to do with.

                  Using a curb with two hands, as I have seen in some western dressage shows?
                  That doesn't make sense, curbs in western riding are to be used on finished horses ridden with one hand.
                  Seems not right to do something wrong, using a western curb two handed, to look like you are doing something else, riding dressage two handed.

                  Since this is just starting, maybe they will fine tune what they want after some more time, we will have to see where this goes.

                  It is sure, as it is today, one more easy class to show in and if nothing else, use it to give a horse show experience for other later.
                  "Easy" meaning any well trained, well ridden horse can do well in it today, as it seems to be scored.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The tests used for Western Dressage are almost exactly like the tests used for regular dressage and are judged the same way, so how can they be pattern classes and the same thing in regular dressage be different? Basic and Primary are the Intro and Training level of Western Dressage.

                    So let's look instead at who is in the ring at the Morgan Nationals - older Morgan Western Pleasure horses. The discipline is too young (2 years old) to have more than a few horses actually started and progressing with the goal of being examples of Western Dressage. The trainers who trained many of those horses felt that they were using dressage principles. They get scores in the upper 60s and 70s. I'm told that at the same levels in regular dressage it's not uncommon to see scores in the 80s at a competitions as prestigious to dressage as the Morgan National is to Morgans.

                    Soon the next two levels of tests will be available, and a progression will have to be shown. The rules have already been tweaked a lot, and will continue to be. So will the tests. USEF dressage tests change every 4 years, and sometimes the changes have not been good. Things that proved not to support good training or got misused were dropped and the movements rearranged. Testing dressage, no matter english or western, will continue to be an evolving thing.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I offered a western primary and a basic test at my organization's dressage schooling show 2 weeks ago. We had 5 western competitors come to compete. There two really nice rides (one showed in a curb with 2 hands, gasp!!!). The other rides were OK, nothing to OMG about and were certainly better than some of the TL rides we had that day. All of the western competitors thanked me for offering it. All were enthused about it and wanted to compete in other western dressage events.

                      We had one competitor who could not get away from the four beat canter and lame looking jog trot in her first class. She obviously read the judge's comments and corrected for her second test. Her horse turned out to be a nice mover when he was allowed to go more forward. I think it is a good thing.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I think it can be a positive influence when it's used to improve gaits as HappyTalk talked about--the four-beat lope and lame-looking jog trot.

                        But I did not approve of one thing I read in the early days of western dressage (just a few years ago)--that it is designed to improve the way of going of western horses, across the board.

                        I think it would be a pity to change the good, natural-looking, free way of moving of a good western horse to the over-bent, foaming-at-the-mouth, laborious-looking movement of some dressage horses.

                        And the posts in this thread about two-handed use of the curb have really given me something to think about!
                        Founder of the People Who Prefer COTH Over FB Clique
                        People Who Hate to Rush to Kill Wildlife Clique!
                        "I Sing Silly Songs to My Animals!" Clique

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          For goodness sakes, it is a four/ five minute test. Light curb contact for 4 minutes is not going to hurt anything. People think the western riders are uneducated. Not true.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            My issue with using two hands on the curb is that western horses neck rein (or seat rein as I like to say ). The curb bit is not meant to be used as a direct rein bit the way a snaffle is used.

                            I will be interested in seeing how new or more progressives tests address movements like more jog yet without rising.

                            I can see how that can be done. After all, most dressage is done with sitting trot. What I don't see happening is the western horse staying western if it's doing what the 'english' dressage horse is doing. Then it's just a matter of tack.

                            Again, I don't see any harm to the horse or rider by having another class to ride in or more precise training for flexibility and response to the aids. But I don't see it as 'real' dressage either.
                            Ride like you mean it.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              In Morgan classes, light contact is required. Very loose reins (stock horse style) are penalized.



                              Originally posted by HappyTalk View Post
                              For goodness sakes, it is a four/ five minute test. Light curb contact for 4 minutes is not going to hurt anything. People think the western riders are uneducated. Not true.
                              Ride like you mean it.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                People who ride curbs consistently two-handed or on contact ARE uneducated, independently of what tack they ride in.

                                The reason it's not appropriate to ride two handed in a curb is not "convention" or "tradition", it's because it's not possible to teach a horse to flex laterally in a leverage bit alone. That's a major point of the snaffle/hackamore/two-rein/bridle progression - establish lateral response to the rein in lateral tools (snaffle/hackamore) before moving into a longitudinal-only tool (a bridle bit). You move to the bridle when the horse accepts the bend from single-handed cues, not just when he doesn't freak out when a curb is hung off him like most people seem to.

                                Of course, nowadays people throw curbs on 3 yr old "cuz its western" and MAKE them do things that used to require a progression. Why? Because people are in a rush and not nearly as picky as they used to be.

                                Not all western riders are uneducated, but plenty are. Of course, the same goes for english riders too.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by JumpQH View Post
                                  UPDATE: I have talked to several dressage trainers (I have yet to find anyone who does dressage in a Western saddle) and am going to start taking lessons. The trainer I chose stated that dressage is dressage in any tack - I liked that! I was trying to decide between Ranch Horse Pleasure, which I could show in the frequent AQHA shows out here, or Western Dressage, which is non-existent, and discovered that when it came down to it, I REALLY wanted the Western Dressage. I'm excited to start lessons! I'm also hoping that by the time I'd be ready to show, WD will have hit the West Coast and be available at shows!
                                  This whole topic of western dressage is interesting. My trainer laughed at me when I started talking about this new fad of "western dressage." Because she has always trained her horses, whither western or english, to do lateral movements (correctly) and be able to be fluid, collect extend etc. She just said to me, all my horses should need is a change of tack to compete in dressage. Of course I'm not talking about PSG, but more akin to training, intro or 1st level.

                                  Its a little strange to me that someone has to go out and find a western dressage instructor.

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by SonnyandLacy View Post
                                    Its a little strange to me that someone has to go out and find a western dressage instructor.
                                    Do you think it's strange that English riders find dressage instructors, too, then?

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by aktill View Post
                                      The reason it's not appropriate to ride two handed in a curb is not "convention" or "tradition", it's because it's not possible to teach a horse to flex laterally in a leverage bit alone.

                                      No one is talking about teaching lateral flexion on a curb. Most western trainers start with a snaffle and work to the horse wearing a curb. There are plenty of curb type bits with rotating mouthpieces (the Myler type bits) that allow one side of the mouth to be affected.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Last summer I bought Harry a nice hunt bridle, plain cavasseon and a Myler level 2 bit.

                                        I wanted to school him with direct rein for suppling. That idea turned out to be a big bust...he is so used to the weight of the western bit and weighted reins that he couldn't 'find' the bit on the lighter set up. He was lost, confused and I ended up on the ground.

                                        So, any schooling I do with suppling/flexibility will have to be with his low-port curb. I don't know if he's peculiar in his dependency on the weighted set up or not. Or if he could get used to a 'no weight' set up over time.

                                        I can work him in long lines for suppling. But his western dressage (planning to ride some next season) will have to be done completely in the curb.
                                        Ride like you mean it.

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X