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Gee, no bumper bits...

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  • #21
    One of their top earning trainers, too.

    Shirley Roth suspended...

    from another forum and edited to protect the author:

    Shirley did not show up for her gate call, and the owners of the horse went back to the stalls to find out why. She was totally packed up and leaving. When the owners realized their horse wasn't in the arena, they returned to the stalls, a confrontation occurred, and they took possession of their horse.The next morning, after rinsing off the adhesive and hair Shirley had painstakenly glued on the horse to cover up the evidence of her abuse, they went to the officials, and then took the horse to the vet trailer to have the abuse documented and treated.

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    • #22
      Originally posted by katarine View Post
      One of their top earning trainers, too.

      Shirley Roth suspended...

      [/I]
      Just wondering your source that considers her a 'top earning trainer' in AQHA.
      The best little horse show series around! www.WinningWeekends.com

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      • #23
        How about the NSBA Top 100? That line was my comment, based on their stats.

        http://www.nsba.com/showing/horse-an...wp-riders.html

        She's in their top 40 for 2011.

        Why did you question it? Just curious.

        Comment


        • #24
          I questioned because I am in the AQHA industry, and she is not someone who is really on the radar as being a 'top' exhibitor.

          NSBA is a different beast...With more high $$ events, it is much easier to be on a 'top' 10, 50, 100 or whatever list with reference to $$ earned. I also believe that the list is cumulative, not just for 2011 as some of the names on the list have not been involved in the industry for several years.

          The event in question was not an AQHA sanctioned class, but rather a $$ futurity class.
          The best little horse show series around! www.WinningWeekends.com

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          • #25
            Originally posted by sahqueen View Post
            Just wondering your source that considers her a 'top earning trainer' in AQHA.
            Shirley Roth has been involved with/trained some of the best of the best. Vital Signs Are Good, Invest in Vital Signs, The Krymsun Kruzer, Cool Lookin Lady, Ona Impulse (now that one had quite the scandal as well...) and a lot of others.

            Sad but true. Lovelovelove The Krymsun Kruzer. Very sad to find he went through her hands.
            The ninja monkeys are plotting my demise as we speak....

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            • #26
              Originally posted by sahqueen View Post
              At each AQHA show judges are required to drop bits in at least one class (rule 438a (11))...many times they pick one Western and one Huntseat class to check them.
              Problem is when one warms up in one bridle and throws on another just prior to entering the ring. Used to happen frequently in some big H/J shows - all the hunters SHOWED in big, happy snaffles.

              Carol
              www.ayliprod.com
              Equine Photography in the Northeast

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              • #27
                Originally posted by ccoronios View Post
                Problem is when one warms up in one bridle and throws on another just prior to entering the ring. Used to happen frequently in some big H/J shows - all the hunters SHOWED in big, happy snaffles.

                Carol
                Yes, and when you have over 20 horses in the ring at the same time for one class (so probably at least the next two classes worth of horses in the warm up) as happens at the bigger shows it is near impossible to keep an eye on everyone as they warm up. Unlike at a dressage show where there is one person in the ring at a time, and if there are 2 or 3 rings doing tests simultaneously there might be 6-12 people in the warm up area.

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                • #28
                  Originally posted by sahqueen View Post
                  I questioned because I am in the AQHA industry, and she is not someone who is really on the radar as being a 'top' exhibitor.

                  NSBA is a different beast...With more high $$ events, it is much easier to be on a 'top' 10, 50, 100 or whatever list with reference to $$ earned. I also believe that the list is cumulative, not just for 2011 as some of the names on the list have not been involved in the industry for several years.

                  The event in question was not an AQHA sanctioned class, but rather a $$ futurity class.
                  Point well made. While she is not a big name in AQHA, and I have no idea how NSBA gathered their data to form their top 100 in 2011...she is not exactly some backyard podunk nobody. The horse in question is owned by an Australian couple. We can split hairs on whether or not everyone recognizes her in the halls of AQHA.

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                  • #29
                    A. What's a bumper bit? I watched the Richert video. That's not just shizzle that the riders are doing with their hends?

                    2. How do the WP people think that the "big moves" jerking they do outside of the show pen carry over to performance inside it? It seems to me that their horses in warm-up can't go 4 strides without some big micromanagement. And then those same horses spend, say, 7 minutes at all three gaits without visible aids during the class? What's the training philosophy here?

                    Originally posted by propspony View Post
                    Ugh! If you can make it through this whole video you've got a stronger will than I do.

                    http://horsetrainingchannel.com/clin...ral-exercises/

                    Watch the little 2 year old... poor filly.

                    But these are the normal training schemes for some trainers...
                    And third (y'all can rev up the hate machine now):

                    What Wells explains in the video makes a ton of sense. It also relates directly to the problem that this discussion of keeping a horse slow and framed up without abusing the face.

                    Well's point is that if you teach a horse that it can never move forward without being soft in the hand *and* squatting on it's hind end, you won't have to fight with the bridle.

                    As I see it, all that lateral work before moving forward is about making sure that the hiney is working... even as you want a young horse to move so slowly and so low in front that he is invited to lean on his front end. Hate the WP frame and project, but if you are going to go there anyway, then there are better and worse ways to get it done.

                    Wells-- hateable to be sure-- isn't wrong about mentally teaching the horse what you want every time and *not* putting him in the wrong position so that you have to correct him with a big move later.
                    Last edited by mvp; Sep. 24, 2012, 07:10 PM.
                    The armchair saddler
                    Politically Pro-Cat

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                    • #30
                      Bumper bit http://www.sstack.com/Western_BitsCu...Mullen-Bumper/
                      It has a metal bar instead of a curb chain.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Originally posted by Renae View Post
                        Bumper bit http://www.sstack.com/Western_BitsCu...Mullen-Bumper/
                        It has a metal bar instead of a curb chain.
                        Yeow! That would hurt.

                        Now I get it. Thanks for the clue.
                        The armchair saddler
                        Politically Pro-Cat

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                        • #32
                          Thanks for asking, I was wondering what a bumper bit was also.


                          I have limited experience showing Western. Have only done it at a few appy shows since my horse had western training before I bought him and it was part of my division.
                          I know I was asked to dismount (in line up) and drop my bit once at every show I attended (but this was quite some time ago).

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                          • #33
                            That bumper bit's been around since I was in diapers.

                            I dunno...I see some of the hardware on GP jumpers on the world stage and I don't see much difference. The stuff Eric Lamaze had on Hickstead comes to mind.

                            Some of the bits I see at H/J shows in the schooling area could rival a bumper bit. To single out western (read QH) shows for "cruelty" is like the pot calling the kettle black.

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                            • #34
                              Originally posted by Go Fish View Post
                              That bumper bit's been around since I was in diapers.

                              I dunno...I see some of the hardware on GP jumpers on the world stage and I don't see much difference. The stuff Eric Lamaze had on Hickstead comes to mind.

                              Some of the bits I see at H/J shows in the schooling area could rival a bumper bit. To single out western (read QH) shows for "cruelty" is like the pot calling the kettle black.
                              Fair enough, and your are right.

                              And another thing!

                              IMO, folks who want to get and maintain a frame with direct contact have it easy. It's much harder to do in a signal bit. So I'm ranting at dressage purist in particular. There are plenty of ways to hurt horses (physically and psychologically) in a 'fat snaffle'. Oh, and when they find that that fails, they legalize Baucher bits.
                              The armchair saddler
                              Politically Pro-Cat

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by mvp View Post
                                Oh, and when they find that that fails, they legalize Baucher bits.
                                ...and? It's just a snaffle, it has no leverage, no poll pressure, nada. Nothing to make it any harsher than any other allowed snaffle.
                                Last edited by gaitedincali; Sep. 26, 2012, 03:50 PM. Reason: I can't spell

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                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by gaitedincali View Post
                                  ...and? It's just a snaffle, it has no leverage, no poll pressure, nada. Nothing to make it any harsher than any other allowed snaffle.
                                  Can you explain that...I cannot see how a bit with a fixed cheek does not include some poll pressure.
                                  The best little horse show series around! www.WinningWeekends.com

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                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by sahqueen View Post
                                    Can you explain that...I cannot see how a bit with a fixed cheek does not include some poll pressure.
                                    I'm no bit expert, but I actually had the same question a few years ago, and in my small little experiment it appears as if it doesn't because a real baucher isn't a fixed cheek, its a hanging cheek, nothing fixed about it, though it looks for all the world as if it is.

                                    A hanging cheek, or baucher might have only a small little opening at top where the cheek piece of the bridle is put through, but its still a circular opening which allows the entire bit to turn freely if rein pressure dictates. Were the opening a slot instead of a round circle, the bridle cheek piece would be fixed. So when enough rein pressure were applied to to pull the bit it would pull down on the bridle cheek piece, likely creating poll pressure.

                                    But because the part where you attach the bridle is round and open, and the part where you attach the rein is round and open, the bit can can move and rotate, not creating leverage.... despite looking like its designed to do just that.


                                    These photos are very old and very terrible, but hopefully shows what I mean.

                                    Here is a baucher with no rein pressure
                                    http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c5...t/IMG_3291.jpg

                                    with moderate rein pressure
                                    http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c5...IMG_3293-1.jpg
                                    you can see that while the top of the bit hasn't rotated in the bridle cheek piece, it appears its not fixed or pulling downwards either

                                    and with much firmer rein pressure
                                    http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c5...IMG_3292-1.jpg
                                    where you can clearly see the bit has lifted in the horse's mouth, releasing pressure on the bridle entirely.

                                    While I don't think this is conclusive evidence that *all* bauchers lift when pulled upon, I do think it illustrates that the bit is able to operate independent of the bridle because its not fixed.


                                    I also did the same with a full cheek with keepers. I didn't have keepers handy so I used a bit of bailing twine

                                    here is the bit in neutral
                                    http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c5...IMG_3279-1.jpg

                                    with moderate rein pressure
                                    http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c5...IMG_3286-1.jpg

                                    and then increasing rein pressure
                                    http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c5...IMG_3287-1.jpg
                                    where you can see the cheek piece of the bridle bending at the point where the keeper ties it in because the bit can't rotate (its fixed by the keeper), I presume its applying poll pressure at this point

                                    and then even more pressure
                                    http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c5...IMG_3288-1.jpg
                                    where despite the terrible photo, its very obvious the cheek piece is being pulled and distorted because it can't rotate.





                                    *No horses were harmed in the making of this experiment and were completely comfortable with hamming it up for the camera for extra goodies when done
                                    http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c5...IMG_3285-1.jpg
                                    Being terrible at something is the first step to being truly great at it. Struggle is the evidence of progress.

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                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by sahqueen View Post
                                      Can you explain that...I cannot see how a bit with a fixed cheek does not include some poll pressure.
                                      Buck22 is right on the money. Pull on the reins with a baucher hard enough and the bridle cheekpieces will actually go slack enough to show daylight between them and the horse. If you add a curb strap up at the bridle loop, then and only then would the bit have a point at which it 'stops' and starts to pull down on the bridle creating poll pressure, albeit very little because your functional 'shank' is almost nil. Your just pulling the whole bit back, not making it pivot.
                                      Last edited by gaitedincali; Sep. 27, 2012, 03:57 AM. Reason: I still can't spell

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        So to the ones who think harsh bits are cruel in GP jumping vs western pleasure, you try guiding a balls out horse over 15 5 ft jumps! Can't even compare to a walk jog lope around an arena. And many of those jumpers are schooled on the flat in...ready...a snaffle! Sorry, not trying to be snarky, but really no comparisan.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by runwayz View Post
                                          So to the ones who think harsh bits are cruel in GP jumping vs western pleasure, you try guiding a balls out horse over 15 5 ft jumps! Can't even compare to a walk jog lope around an arena. And many of those jumpers are schooled on the flat in...ready...a snaffle! Sorry, not trying to be snarky, but really no comparisan.


                                          Not always, I never rode jumping horses in any other than a standard old type D ring snaffle in continental Europe, is all we had and sure made do fine.
                                          Never even seen twisted wire or any other, pelhams about the other option as a curb and really, when a horse is jumping, you need a bit better direction control than pelham's give, more than extra stopping power, that comes from training.

                                          Then, many more riders with less trained or more difficult horses can show today being aided by all kinds of bit options.

                                          I am sure there were some horses our snaffle didn't really fit that well, but we all made do, horses and the humans riding them.

                                          I do agree, a well trained western pleasure horse should not get on the muscle as a jumper can over the larger courses and going for time.

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