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Why do Reiners spin?

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    #41
    Originally posted by BigMama1 View Post
    Is it standard in all Western disciplines to back a horse at 2? Or just certain ones? And is there a reason to start them under saddle so young?
    That begs the question, is there a reason, with so much more we know today, that anyone would not start their horses "so young"?

    https://thehorse.com/151784/training-young-athletes/

    Common sense today makes us wonder why we didn't and still some today question the benefits of using that perfect time growing into a task is when young.
    There are way more studies out there showing why is better to start early training a growing body, horse or human or any other, that will be asked to perform physically demanding tasks.

    When starting a horse at, say, four, then expect him to be as good and stay as sound later at a high performance level for many years is the equivalent than starting a, say gymnast after it graduates from college and then expect him to train and perform like someone that started training as a kid.

    As far as saying you may cause injuries training early, well, you may cause injuries by bad training, not just by training, at any age.
    In fact, what studies have shown is that those started properly early stayed sound and longer and performed better than those started later.
    That working on muscle memory and skills while developing into that kind of abilities a horse is bred for is what today's trainers appreciate and horses thrive under.

    That all has been now known for many years, tested and tried theories, but, of course, as all such, subject always to learning more.

    As I say, there are today more reasons to start horses early than later.

    Comment


      #42
      Originally posted by endlessclimb View Post
      As long as we are being a little blunt here -

      Can someone tell me of a pro or high level reining trainer that isn't rough on their horses? Or does it come with the territory?

      I have never seen a reiner not ridden with the jab jab, yank yank, method - along with the severe bend/counterbend exercises, violent backing when the whoa wasn't enough, and excessive spur use on a spin when it wasn't to the rider's satisfaction.

      They're beautiful to watch once they're finished, but the methods to get them there - yikes. Is that a result of futurity related pressures?
      I've gone to some clinics in Nebraska with a reining trainer and he does not yank. His method of teaching the stop is slow and smooth. He wants a LONG slide so he does not yank for the stop. In fact he does a lot of lope to trot to stop transitions so the horse doesn't learn to jam into the ground. Now he does bump a lot when working the horse, such as in circles, to keep the horse bridled up. But, I don't think you'll find many western discipline trainers that don't bump a lot. So I think the difference then becomes: Do they stop bumping when the horse bridles up? Or do they keep bumping the horse and the horse has his chin tucked to his chest?

      These trainers have a lot of pressure on them. Their clients want a winning horse. So I do think with western pleasure, reining, etc that it kind of does come with the territory. I love to show and compete but I've always thought that once we turn something into a sport it gets ruined. By money, betting, etc. More pressure to win, more and higher competitions. The purpose of the sport gets lost.

      Comment


        #43
        Originally posted by Bluey View Post

        That begs the question, is there a reason, with so much more we know today, that anyone would not start their horses "so young"?

        https://thehorse.com/151784/training-young-athletes/

        Common sense today makes us wonder why we didn't and still some today question the benefits of using that perfect time growing into a task is when young.
        There are way more studies out there showing why is better to start early training a growing body, horse or human or any other, that will be asked to perform physically demanding tasks.

        When starting a horse at, say, four, then expect him to be as good and stay as sound later at a high performance level for many years is the equivalent than starting a, say gymnast after it graduates from college and then expect him to train and perform like someone that started training as a kid.

        As far as saying you may cause injuries training early, well, you may cause injuries by bad training, not just by training, at any age.
        In fact, what studies have shown is that those started properly early stayed sound and longer and performed better than those started later.
        That working on muscle memory and skills while developing into that kind of abilities a horse is bred for is what today's trainers appreciate and horses thrive under.

        That all has been now known for many years, tested and tried theories, but, of course, as all such, subject always to learning more.

        As I say, there are today more reasons to start horses early than later.
        Great questions and great points! It does come back to correct training and good judgement. Also, some horses mature later than others as well. Grouping every horse into the same category isn't good. It's like some people will widen their eyes at you if you say you started your horse at 3 instead of 2. Well guess what, that horse wasn't ready at 2! But some people just think all horses should be started at 2. Our industry can be frustrating.

        Comment


          #44
          Originally posted by Brl Racer & More View Post

          I've gone to some clinics in Nebraska with a reining trainer and he does not yank. His method of teaching the stop is slow and smooth. He wants a LONG slide so he does not yank for the stop. In fact he does a lot of lope to trot to stop transitions so the horse doesn't learn to jam into the ground. Now he does bump a lot when working the horse, such as in circles, to keep the horse bridled up. But, I don't think you'll find many western discipline trainers that don't bump a lot. So I think the difference then becomes: Do they stop bumping when the horse bridles up? Or do they keep bumping the horse and the horse has his chin tucked to his chest?

          These trainers have a lot of pressure on them. Their clients want a winning horse. So I do think with western pleasure, reining, etc that it kind of does come with the territory. I love to show and compete but I've always thought that once we turn something into a sport it gets ruined. By money, betting, etc. More pressure to win, more and higher competitions. The purpose of the sport gets lost.
          I wonder at times if the "bumping", that can be a mere ask and release or a more rough yanking, if that is a bad habit we can get into as a handsy humans?
          If no one is there to call that to your attention when it first happen, if others do it, many don't even know they are doing it, I think, it becomes a default behavior.
          In the instructor program I was in, horse's mouths were considered sacred.
          You were taught and supervised to be sure you understood the effect of reins as being a good communicating tool, but way to sensitive to abuse and were taught under that principle.
          The way I see today many yank on reins, training, competing, if we had gone there, we would have been excused, explained the error of our ways and if repeated, asked to leave.

          Why we may look at today's bumping as a default behavior?
          If a horse is trained properly for collection, in any discipline, you are teaching the horse to transfer it's weight thru how they position their body from the for horses more natural more weight in front, to what we ask of riding horses needs that require at times more weight behind on demand.

          Many trainers forget teaching by small, slow steps because it is faster and easier to just bump until the horse gets it by default.

          The really fine trainers will hardly ever need to do much bumping, their horses are understanding what the rider is asking, taught by slow steps as a response to weight and other aids, rein aids minimal and phased out quickly.

          Many reining trained horses performing reining movements at times seems more like trick trained.
          Horses learn what to do on request and then just do it with minimal or no help from reins.
          Why when the bridle fell apart at a show, the competitor could keep performing as if the horse was always ridden without a bridle, as it knew to listen to the rider and what the rider was asking.

          I have seen over decades how more people are becoming thinking and more technical riders, not just riding by the seat of the pants, horses performing discombobulated, but getting the job done anyway, best way they can manage.
          Information is seeping in from all sides, more questions asked of ourselves and others, our ways also questioned from outsiders.
          Sorting thru all that, the horse is the winner here, there seems to be today better educated trainers and riders, is a path that all with horses walk and then help those coming after us to do better, make less mistakes.

          Look at reining just a bit over a decade ago and at today.
          Horses have not changed that much, specific discipline breeding helps, but they are still all horses and today their training and performance, other than fads, is way smoother than it was before and recognized, as it should be.

          Comment


            #45
            Originally posted by Bluey View Post


            Look at reining just a bit over a decade ago and at today.
            Horses have not changed that much, specific discipline breeding helps, but they are still all horses and today their training and performance, other than fads, is way smoother than it was before and recognized, as it should be.
            I disagree a bit. Horses have changed a ton over the last decade because of that discipline specific breeding. It used to be that you could find cutting and reined cowhorse bloodlines in the reining pen and not so much anymore. The horses now are born to want to stop and spin. Reiners are now completely different than the cow horses. The quality of movement has greatly increased too.
            Kick On

            Comment


              #46
              Originally posted by Bluey View Post

              I wonder at times if the "bumping", that can be a mere ask and release or a more rough yanking, if that is a bad habit we can get into as a handsy humans?
              If no one is there to call that to your attention when it first happen, if others do it, many don't even know they are doing it, I think, it becomes a default behavior.
              In the instructor program I was in, horse's mouths were considered sacred.
              You were taught and supervised to be sure you understood the effect of reins as being a good communicating tool, but way to sensitive to abuse and were taught under that principle.
              The way I see today many yank on reins, training, competing, if we had gone there, we would have been excused, explained the error of our ways and if repeated, asked to leave.

              Why we may look at today's bumping as a default behavior?
              If a horse is trained properly for collection, in any discipline, you are teaching the horse to transfer it's weight thru how they position their body from the for horses more natural more weight in front, to what we ask of riding horses needs that require at times more weight behind on demand.

              Many trainers forget teaching by small, slow steps because it is faster and easier to just bump until the horse gets it by default.

              The really fine trainers will hardly ever need to do much bumping, their horses are understanding what the rider is asking, taught by slow steps as a response to weight and other aids, rein aids minimal and phased out quickly.

              Many reining trained horses performing reining movements at times seems more like trick trained.
              Horses learn what to do on request and then just do it with minimal or no help from reins.
              Why when the bridle fell apart at a show, the competitor could keep performing as if the horse was always ridden without a bridle, as it knew to listen to the rider and what the rider was asking.

              I have seen over decades how more people are becoming thinking and more technical riders, not just riding by the seat of the pants, horses performing discombobulated, but getting the job done anyway, best way they can manage.
              Information is seeping in from all sides, more questions asked of ourselves and others, our ways also questioned from outsiders.
              Sorting thru all that, the horse is the winner here, there seems to be today better educated trainers and riders, is a path that all with horses walk and then help those coming after us to do better, make less mistakes.

              Look at reining just a bit over a decade ago and at today.
              Horses have not changed that much, specific discipline breeding helps, but they are still all horses and today their training and performance, other than fads, is way smoother than it was before and recognized, as it should be.
              I agree, I'm not sure if they do realize how much they are bumping the horse. Or maybe it's become habit to ride like that. I've found even with myself that I need to sometimes ride with a bit of a drape in my reins, to test myself. Make sure I'm not balancing on the reins, or being uptight with my arms/shoulders without realizing I'm pulling on the mouth, etc. Another thing is people bring a trainer a horse and say I want to win at this level with this horse. Trainer does what they need to do to get that to happen. Maybe that horse just wasn't born to be at that caliber. Those people should just say to the trainer, find me a horse, these are my goals. Some horses will be great novice horses. Some horses will be great non-pro horses. Some horses will be great 4-H horses. Etc. And there are trainers that will say, this horse will not meet your goals. But I do see where there is a lot of pressure on the trainer, on the horse, etc.

              There is a lot more education out there and more recognition of horses behavior than in the past. We are more cognitive to how the horse thinks now (not say it wasn't so in the past). I believe everything has improved, but I think competition ruins it a little. Because of the pressure to win, the money it costs, and the time. People want results yesterday.

              Comment


                #47
                Originally posted by endlessclimb View Post
                As long as we are being a little blunt here -

                Can someone tell me of a pro or high level reining trainer that isn't rough on their horses? Or does it come with the territory?

                I have never seen a reiner not ridden with the jab jab, yank yank, method - along with the severe bend/counterbend exercises, violent backing when the whoa wasn't enough, and excessive spur use on a spin when it wasn't to the rider's satisfaction.

                They're beautiful to watch once they're finished, but the methods to get them there - yikes. Is that a result of futurity related pressures?
                Interesting comment.. I ride both dressage and reining.. and mainly on apps, but have ridden a few others also. I actually find that they two styles compliment each other. I personally find that Reining is a much softer style than pure dressage .. and is rewarded as such when it goes well.. I have often thought is so odd that reining rewards "willingly guided".. where as dressage rewards "submission"... terrible terrible word to use for any training system.. I also prefer FEI reining, since I appreciate the stronger rules and regulations.. Just a personal opinion.
                www.australiancolouredperformancehorses.com.au

                Comment


                  #48
                  Originally posted by endlessclimb View Post
                  As long as we are being a little blunt here -

                  Can someone tell me of a pro or high level reining trainer that isn't rough on their horses? Or does it come with the territory?

                  I have never seen a reiner not ridden with the jab jab, yank yank, method - along with the severe bend/counterbend exercises, violent backing when the whoa wasn't enough, and excessive spur use on a spin when it wasn't to the rider's satisfaction.

                  They're beautiful to watch once they're finished, but the methods to get them there - yikes. Is that a result of futurity related pressures?
                  Wow. We have a reining bred horse, purchased at age 3, and my daughter rides her with a trainer who would never do the things you describe. Are there people who will do those things out there? Sure. Are there English trainers drugging the hell out of their hunters, using electric spurs, sharp jump poles, etc.? Also yes. I think in any horse related discipliine if you're hiring a professional to help you get where you want to go, you need to decide how you want to go there - is it help develop you and your horse into the best team you can possibly be, or to win at all costs?

                  My daughter rode in hunters and equitation for 6 years before switching to Western, specifically reining and ranch riding. She was really drawn to working horses on a ranch belonging to friends in CO, then found a Western trainer here on the East Coast to work with. She loved the reining horses in the barn - smart, calm, confident animals on the ground as well as under tack. She's learning correctness and rhythm and knowing exactly what each part of her horse is doing at all times. The horse is expected to learn to carry herself rather than be "ridden every single step", and to allow her to make mistakes so that she will learn to do her job better. Never with spurring, snapping reins, or anything of the sort. She's learning extension and collection, and has a fairly slow but correct spin in development. Having grown up in the English world myself it's fascinating to watch the two of them grow together.

                  So I'd say, yes, there are many, many reining trainers who train their horses effectively but with good horsemanship, always. Just like there are many people who train dressage horses, jumpers, and hunter horses with respect. But if those things are not important, there will always be someone to take your $$$ to get the ribbon and hang the horse out to dry.



                  Comment


                    #49
                    I watched a reining trainer give a demonstration at an exhibition.

                    He did not spin the horse. He showed how the horse is asked to step over every day Every day. Then a few more steps and then a few more steps.

                    After a time frame you ask them to put them all together and the horse spins.

                    It was demonstrated with patience and understanding and was a very good dressage lesson. After all dressage means training.
                    It is better to ride 5 minutes a day than it is to ride 35 minutes on a Sunday.

                    Comment


                      #50
                      Originally posted by SuzieQNutter View Post
                      I watched a reining trainer give a demonstration at an exhibition.

                      He did not spin the horse. He showed how the horse is asked to step over every day Every day. Then a few more steps and then a few more steps.

                      After a time frame you ask them to put them all together and the horse spins.

                      It was demonstrated with patience and understanding and was a very good dressage lesson. After all dressage means training.
                      What a brilliant analogy.. well put!
                      www.australiancolouredperformancehorses.com.au

                      Comment

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