• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse
1 of 2 < >

Update to Forum Rules: Criminal Allegations

In our continuing effort to provide an avenue for individuals to voice their opinions and experiences, we have recently reviewed and updated our forum policies. Generally, we have allowed users to share their positive or negative experiences with or opinions of companies, products, trainers, etc. within the industry, and that is not changing.

When it came to overt criminal allegations, however, those discussions have in the past needed to stem from a report by a reputable news source or action by law enforcement or the legal system.

We are now expanding our policies to allow posters to share their own first-hand experiences involving overt criminal allegations, such as animal abuse or neglect, theft, etc., but only if they publicly provide their full first and last name along with the post. We still will not allow anonymous postings alleging criminal activity.

So, a user may now make a specific claim against a named individual or company, but it must be a FIRST-HAND account, and they have to IDENTIFY THEMSELVES. Users have always been legally responsible for their posts, and nothing has changed there, but we want to loosen the reins a bit and further allow the free flow of discussion and information relevant to the horse community.

We are not providing a free-for-all of anonymous rumor-mongering. As enduring advocates for the welfare of the horse, we want to provide a forum for those willing to sign their name and shine a light on issues of concern to them in the industry.

The full revised rules are posted at the top of each forum for reference.
2 of 2 < >

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the Forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes may be better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts, though are not legally obligated to do so, regardless of content.

Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting. Moderators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts unless they have been alerted and have determined that a post, thread or user has violated the Forums’ policies. Moderators do not regularly independently monitor the Forums for such violations.

Profanity, outright vulgarity, blatant personal insults or otherwise inappropriate statements will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

Users may provide their positive or negative experiences with or opinions of companies, products, individuals, etc.; however, accounts involving allegations of criminal behavior against named individuals or companies MUST be first-hand accounts and may NOT be made anonymously.

If a situation has been reported upon by a reputable news source or addressed by law enforcement or the legal system it is open for discussion, but if an individual wants to make their own claims of criminal behavior against a named party in the course of that discussion, they too must identify themselves by first and last name and the account must be first-person.

Criminal allegations that do not satisfy these requirements, when brought to our attention, may be removed pending satisfaction of these criteria, and we reserve the right to err on the side of caution when making these determinations.

Credible threats of suicide will be reported to the police along with identifying user information at our disposal, in addition to referring the user to suicide helpline resources such as 1-800-SUICIDE or 1-800-273-TALK.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 5/9/18)
See more
See less

Clinic Blues

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Clinic Blues

    I have attended clinics in the past and I know that every clinician has a different style. However, I witnessed some major bullying by a clinician to a participant and I’m still trying to understand it. No one said anything. It was never addressed in any way by anyone that I spoke to. Is this normal? Why was it completely ignored? Really would appreciate any kind of input as I’ve been struggling to understand if this is generally accepted in the horse world? Thanks!

  • #2
    Well without seeing a video clip of the incident, honestly I can't say where on the spectrum such a vaguely described event sits. Riding instruction in some disciplines has roots in the military, and also can borrow from the tough coach style common to men's team sports. Plus sometimes a coach does have to yell to get the attention of a particularly spaced out student

    I would say in general if the other participants took whatever happened in stride and weren't bothered, then it isn't bullying. Because the definition of bullying turns on how the target feels about the interaction.

    This may not be a good clinician for you. It would not be a good clinician for me! But it may be just fine for the people involved who may feel they need a push out of their comfort zone

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Readytoride View Post
      I have attended clinics in the past and I know that every clinician has a different style. However, I witnessed some major bullying by a clinician to a participant and I’m still trying to understand it. No one said anything. It was never addressed in any way by anyone that I spoke to. Is this normal? Why was it completely ignored? Really would appreciate any kind of input as I’ve been struggling to understand if this is generally accepted in the horse world? Thanks!
      I wonder why you posted this in the western forum?

      One of the top clinicians in the world for decades is part of the English disciplines and known always for being extremely tough and demanding, some may have felt bullied and maybe they were.
      There really is no place for anyone in any clinic of any kind to be pushing participants to extremes by treating them roughly, much less bullying them.

      We don't have enough information in your post to know if there was really over the top demands made on that clinic's participant, or if it was a mere perception of such.

      Comment


      • #4
        Shrug.

        Clinicians (and trainers and instructors) all have different personalities, approaches, and sensibilities. There are popular clinicians in every discipline who I would never ride with.

        However, that's me. I was the child who never got spanked because a harsh word was enough to make me dissolve into a puddle of tears. There are other people who seem to thrive in an environment that I would find hostile. There are clinicians that some people rave about but others would never ride with.

        If you really want to be helpful, you need to provide an honest report on the clinic (good and bad) and name the clinician. That way, people who might be considering a clinic with that person can get an idea of what to expect and make an informed decision about whether or not that clinician is the right one for them.
        "Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything
        that's even remotely true."

        Homer Simpson

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Readytoride View Post
          I have attended clinics in the past and I know that every clinician has a different style. However, I witnessed some major bullying by a clinician to a participant and I’m still trying to understand it. No one said anything. It was never addressed in any way by anyone that I spoke to. Is this normal? Why was it completely ignored? Really would appreciate any kind of input as I’ve been struggling to understand if this is generally accepted in the horse world? Thanks!
          Well without any of us being there to witness, it's impossible to know what exactly happened.

          Was it really bullying? Or was the clinician just blunt and to-the-point?

          What exactly did the clinician do?

          If you thought it was bullying .... why didn't YOU speak up?
          It is not enough to know how to ride; one must know how to fall.

          Comment


          • #6
            Readytoride --I'm going to jump in here. I taught high school for 41 years --to the observer, I suspect some of the daily activities [probably every day] could be considered "teacher bullying student" behavior. I don't mean physical --"Do this essay, mister, or I'll take you in the hall beat you!" but things like simple proximity. If I had a student who was resistant --reluctant?-to do what I asked, read a story, write a paragraph --and I knew what I was asking was within the student's ability and would cause him/her no harm --and would ultimately benefit the student --I would ask the student beside him to move, and I'd sit beside him/her. Really close. One might say that a teacher "crowding" a student is bullying. And I'd tell the reluctant student --"let's get your name on the paper, and a working title. Then start the first sentence (or outline) and I'll go help someone else." --OK to get rid of me --the big bad bully teacher --the student needed to do something easy and simple --name, sentence --and POOF I was gone to help someone else. And yes, often it was the same student --who would say, "Missus, why do you pick on me?" And to the outside observer, I was singling this student out --bullying? But, once the name was on the paper, the first sentence started --the paper often was written! Win-win!

            So to your clinician who was bullying a rider --I can clearly see how this could appear to you --clinician asks each participant to trot ten steps then pick up a canter. Five do so. Number six does not. Clinician turns to # 6 and says, "Hey, cowboy, can't you count! Do it again! Ten steps, NOW and then CANTER unless you are too lazy to kick that fat horse!" Only this time, because the choice is TRY or be singled out again as the "cowboy who can't count," and is "lazy" the rider does as asked. Ok --rider has taught the clinician that what works to motivate him/her is FEAR of the clinician's sharp remarks. Another rider might fail to do as asked, and be told, "Hey, Reining Champion the World --you are NEVER going to score higher than -1 if you don't sit deeper in that saddle." Rider does and has a better seat. Clinician has learned that the second rider is motivated by a desire to win shows.

            To me, bullying at a clinic would have to be a clinician who asks riders to do the impossible or what is dangerous. Or worse a certain well-respected Eventing clinician who either ignores riders above a certain age completely, or points out that a rider won't be able to be successful until he/she loses weight. -in that case, the clinician is not doing his or her job --helping the rider improve, but instead --is bullying or humiliating the rider.

            But as always, one person's bullying can be another person's motivation. I am sure that of the 4000+ students I taught --someone (probably more than one) felt I was a bully because I MADE him/her write essays, do speeches, read books.

            Comment


            • #7
              Who would you say anything to? It’s not a horse show you need to show at for points and prizes with rules of conduct and a judge you don’t pick, It’s a private clinic, an expensive glorified lesson, the clinician was hired to teach it, students paid to be taught by them. There’s no points or awards involved, it’s voluntary and they know who is teaching before they paid for it.

              The person who could do something would be the rider involved or their parent , not a bystander. The rider can step out or a parent step in if they feel mistreated and go to the organizer running the clinic. But it’s voluntary participation and there’s no lock on the ring gate.

              And ,yes, I have seen riders exercise their right to excuse themselves if they felt they were being bullied or over faced at a clinic they paid for. I stepped out of a regular lesson with a new assistant trainer once, others loved her. Their choice as my leaving was my choice for the 18yo lease horse I didn’t own and who, IMO, was physically not up to what was being asked with ever larger gymnastic combinations while clinician was harping on me to do anyway. I suffered no ill effects..
              When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

              The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

              Comment


              • #8
                I don't know. Yes, I've often heard of clinicians being absolute jerks - although none of them were in any of the western disciplines. I've always wondered why people continue to pay for the privilege of being insulted.

                I don't clinic often, but I've had instructors ask me to do things I wasn't going to do, for one reason or another. I try not to be confrontational - because it's kind of stupid to pay someone for their opinion and then argue with them - but I'll often suggest an alternative, e.g. "How about, instead of hitting my horse with the dressage whip when he forges ahead, I snap this flag a foot or so in front of his nose? Let's see if that stops him forging - look, it worked!"

                But if I were a participant at a clinic, I don't think I'd insert myself into a situation between the clinician and another rider. I'd think it would be up to that rider to take up for him/herself. Why do you think someone should've spoken up on the rider's behalf? Was this person a child or otherwise unable to defend him/herself?
                I'm not ignoring the rules. I'm interpreting the rules. Tamal, The Great British Baking Show

                Comment


                • #9
                  There are....abrasive...clinicians on the Western side too. Even in NH.
                  When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                  The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by findeight View Post
                    There are....abrasive...clinicians on the Western side too. Even in NH.
                    Oh, I'm sure there are. I just don't know about them, probably because the only people I know who clinic are english riders. I've only been to Buck Brannaman and Linda Hoover, both of whom were extremely polite.
                    I'm not ignoring the rules. I'm interpreting the rules. Tamal, The Great British Baking Show

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      George Morris calling girls fat and speaking in a derogatory fashion about their weight in a clinic or anywhere else is bullying. Who knows what happened in OP's situation since OP is being obtuse.

                      OP, if you don't like the way the clinician acts, don't go to his or her clinics.
                      "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in a confederacy against him."

                      Comment

                      Working...
                      X