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Breeders of hunter ponies - input please

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  • Breeders of hunter ponies - input please

    Was just browsing through some sales ads and realize how much I like the "look" of the welsh/arab cross.
    Interested to hear some of the known, showing ponies that are of this cross (showing on the rated pony hunter circuit).
    Also, what are the "good" pedigrees on the arab side when you are looking to produce hunter ponies?
    I have never really researched arab lines and would love to hear what others have to say about them. I have a Arab X welsh C mare that I absolutely love. She has terrific bone as well as a "huntery" stride. Would love to have a hunter arab to eventually cross with my section B welsh who has quite a bit of bone.

    Looking forward to hearing your opinions!
    Crown Ridge Farms
    Breeding Quality Hunter, Welsh and British Riding Ponies
    Youngstock available for sale & Stallions at Stud
    www.crownridgefarms.com

  • #2
    Well, we've had a few Welsh/Arab crosses in our barn in the past (resale ponies) and they all sold for top dollar and are competing successfully.....but I decided about 6 years ago not to take them in any longer....and you'll likely get the same opinion from the die hard hunter pony breeders/owners on this board. They can be a hard sell!

    Not meaning to dis Arabs in any way or disrespect the Arab breeders or fans out there...but some of them can be on the hot side and very spooky. As well, any tail carriage in the hunter ring is a huge no-no, so you have to be very careful when crossing them to produce a hunter pony. We've had crosses in the barn with tail carriage and others without. The other major problem is they tend to be a bit weak in the hind end, built too upright in the head and neck and a little short strided (and sometimes too much knee action) for the hunter ring, so those are all things to factor in.

    For me personally, the hardest part of the resales was when the prospective buyer found out the pony had Arab in them. Often, I lost a sale right away...or several times, the trainer just wanted me to put on the bill of sale, "Welsh cross" and I know they had no plans of ever mentioning the Arab pedigree to their client, prospective buyer, etc. It got to the point, when selling them, that I just put "Welsh cross" on my website and disclosed the Arab once the person saw the pony on our website, fell in love and contacted us. Most often though, I had a tough time selling them and wouldn't do it again. Others may have had great success with it, I didn't.

    The most popular cross for the hunter ring tends to be the Welsh/TB cross and that tends to be a sure bet when crossing a quality TB mare on a Welsh stallion. You also normally end up with a large, which is the easiest size to market. I personally can't stand the TB mentality, personality and feeding regime, so that cross is out for me personally, but many breeders like Sugarbrook and VirginiaBred have great success with that cross. Our niche has been with the purebreds.

    Below are a couple of our Arabian cross hunter ponies that have been in the barn over the years!
    Attached Files
    www.DaventryEquestrian.com
    Home of Oldenburg, Westphalian & RPSI approved pony stallion Goldhills Brandysnap
    Also home to Daventry Equine Appraisals & Equine Expert Witness www.EquineAppraisers.com

    Comment


    • #3
      A friend of mine has a lovely Welsh/Arab cross. Very sweet mare, good jumper but doesn't have the stride to be a division pony. She's a nice children's hunter but tops out at 14.0 1/2 and she does have some tail carriage. She is by TF Count Bisbee out of a Farnley mare. Again, anyone would be happy to have her in their barn - a real quality pony that's easy to live with-just a little short strided.

      I, on the other hand, own the 'sure bet' Welsh/TB cross! Cute mare, good mover, by a ranked hunter pony sire. Sadly, we quickly discovered that the hunters were just not her thing as she is convinced that the faster you go, the better it is. Luckily, my daughter was equally happy doing the jumpers so we're hoping she's scopey enough to do the Pony Jumpers! Quite often I look at that cute, quiet Welsh/Arab mare clocking around the hunters and think "Oh, I miss this!".

      Comment


      • #4
        My friend has a few and they have been fairly successful. Only thing I can't stand is they carry their tails high. Also, they seem to be light behind and have flat jumps. Very nice ponies, have the stride, good movers, but not model winners. I am a die hard hunter pony person and truely prefer Section B Welsh, Welsh/TB and Welsh/WB. Honestly, doubt I'd ever go look at a Welsh/Arab.

        Comment


        • #5
          Not all of the Arabs will have the high tail set - it depends on the type of Arab they are.

          I agree that the light bone is an issue.
          Randee Beckman ~Otteridge Farm, LLC (http://on.fb.me/1iJEqvR)~ Marketing Manager - The Clothes Horse & Jennifer Oliver Equine Insurance Specialist

          Comment


          • #6
            I have access to a nice Arab mare that I will eventually breed for a large. She is 15.2 and looks like a welsh cob. Quiet minded, born just about bomb proof. Push horse. Very conservative head, not all stretched out and creepy looking. She is a gorgeous mover with a huge stride.

            I would not breed her for resale tho, it would be to keep, since people are so gun-shy of them. I think it will be a great cross! I'd love to breed her to Rosenthal too.
            "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
            ---
            The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by EqTrainer
              I'd love to breed her to Rosenthal too.

              Speaking of Rosenthal..........

              did you see the GORGEOUS yearling in the Sport Horse Sale this Saturday?!!!??? The sale put on by PAS at the Lexington Horse Center? WOW.
              Randee Beckman ~Otteridge Farm, LLC (http://on.fb.me/1iJEqvR)~ Marketing Manager - The Clothes Horse & Jennifer Oliver Equine Insurance Specialist

              Comment


              • #8
                No, sorry I missed that. Was it an Arab cross? He crosses so well on them...
                "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
                ---
                The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by EqTrainer
                  No, sorry I missed that. Was it an Arab cross? He crosses so well on them...

                  No. I'll email you the pictures.
                  Randee Beckman ~Otteridge Farm, LLC (http://on.fb.me/1iJEqvR)~ Marketing Manager - The Clothes Horse & Jennifer Oliver Equine Insurance Specialist

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I have always found it very interesting that Upland Ripple (Pandora) produced such great ponies. She was bred to Farnley Lustre many times and produced, among others, Cymraeg Rain Beau. What I find so worth looking at, is that after that they bred Pandora to AM Lord Elope, an Arabian. They bred her (and maybe more than the one breeding that I know about) to Paper Doll. I bought one of the youngsters. Her name is LucyLove. She ended up ( I believe this is right) third in green pony hunters this last year and was VPBA National Performance Champion.
                    There was not a hint of ARAB in her (and what I mean is she was not quick nor held her tail like an arab). Her baby doll face is to die for and she was started quietly and without any ARAB bad qualities at all. Hmmmm........Arab? I find them to be a good influence in our hunters.......if you have the right type arab crossed with the welsh. JMHO. sandy
                    Sandy
                    www.sugarbrook.com
                    hunter/jumper ponies

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I have a welsh/arab cross that I intend to keep and lease over and over because she's just so wonderful. She's a huge bodied medium with an enormous stride and absolutely no spook. She doesn't carry her tail funny, but she does have that long backed "arab" look. We put a big fluffy tail in her to show to balance things out. She is definitely the exception to every preconceived "arab" notion.

                      Sorry, I don't know how to post pics, but she is on my sales page, "Pearl". (patchworkfarmga.com)

                      If she needs a holiday, she'll definitely get bred. I think breeding her to a nice, typey welsh would be just the ticket. Or maybe Empire's Power.... I have two of those that I love.
                      http://patchworkfarmga.com

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Touching on what Sandy said, AM Lord Elope crossed with Cymraeg Rain or Shine produced Good As Gold (mare), who has been a very good producer. Hillcrest's Blue Smoke, now known as True Blue was 1/2 Arabian and sired some nice ponies including my mare's daughter Hillcrest's Blue Halo (top selling small PFS '08) and Hillcrest's Blue Cowboy (top seller at Pony Finals Sale '08).When done right they seem to be good producers.
                        I worked at at huge Polish Arabian breeding farm for many years and they were not light-boned, spooky, or silly in any way. A lot of that is created for the show ring which baffles me but that is a discussion for another thread. These guys were loving, many were child-friendly, and born people-loving. That being said, I don't think I would breed for one (1/2 Arab hunter pony) unless I planned on keeping it for myself. I think there is too much stigma there to make it a profitable venture.

                        Taken from http://www.abhja.com/news.htm:
                        (regarding Pony Finals)
                        "In Large Pony Hunter, a Welsh/Arabian cross RIKKI TIKKI TAVI, above left, finished 30th out of 133 entries, while the purebred BEDAZZLED, above right, (registered as SAHLITAIRE DANCER) further down in the final rankings.



                        In the Medium Pony Hunters, a Welsh/Arabian cross SILLY PUTTY, above left, and Connemara/Arabian/Welsh pony WELLENS GOLD COIN, above right, (whose dam is a Welsh/Arabian by purebred AM LORD ELOPE). Both ponies finished in the middle third of the rankings. GOLD COIN’s dam has produced several top show ponies, as has AM LORD ELOPE.


                        The American Hunter Pony Classic Sale, held in conjunction with Pony Finals, featured an Arabian-bred pony in the top 5 sellers of the sale. HILLCREST’S BLUE HALO, photo left, , sired by HILLCREST’S BLUE SMOKE, a registered Half-Arabian out of LADS AMELIA (Alada Baskin), brought $42,500. There was a green Half Arabian by TF COUNT BISBEE, sire of many nationally ranked ponies and another out of an Arabian mare KHLIO BASKULE.


                        HILLCREST’S BLUE SMOKE, pictured below, (aka True Blue) was purchased at the 2004 Pony Classic auction for $23,500 and is also registered Half-Welsh. He was Reserve Champion in the Medium Green Hunters in 2006 Pony Finals and 3rd Overall Green Hunter Pony in 2007."
                        Last edited by Summerwood; Jul. 13, 2010, 02:14 PM.
                        http://summerwoodwelsh.com
                        Summerwood Farm Welsh Ponies~
                        http://www.facebook.com/Summerwoodfarmwelshponies

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Sugarbrook
                          I have always found it very interesting that Upland Ripple (Pandora) produced such great ponies. She was bred to Farnley Lustre many times and produced, among others, Cymraeg Rain Beau. What I find so worth looking at, is that after that they bred Pandora to AM Lord Elope, an Arabian. They bred her (and maybe more than the one breeding that I know about) to Paper Doll. I bought one of the youngsters. Her name is LucyLove. She ended up ( I believe this is right) third in green pony hunters this last year and was VPBA National Performance Champion.
                          There was not a hint of ARAB in her (and what I mean is she was not quick nor held her tail like an arab). Her baby doll face is to die for and she was started quietly and without any ARAB bad qualities at all. Hmmmm........Arab? I find them to be a good influence in our hunters.......if you have the right type arab crossed with the welsh. JMHO. sandy

                          She had at least 11 foals. There were 3 by Farnley Lustre, 1 by Farnely Bellringer, 1 by *Coed Coch Greycloud, 3 by Al Marah Lord Elope, 1 by Hidden Creek's Lusty C, 1 by Farnley Merlin, and 1 by Crossroads Sun Shine (which was Cymraeg Rain Or Shine).

                          The AM Lord Elope foals were: Winnie The Pooh, Paper Doll, and Cymraeg Rain Shower who was Grand and Medium Pony Champion at Pony Finals in 1993.

                          She was never bred to Paper Doll. She is the dam of Paper Doll (who is by AM Lord Elope) whose pedigree is found here:
                          http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/paper+doll12


                          (thanks SuSu! )
                          Last edited by VirginiaBred; Jul. 13, 2010, 11:43 AM.
                          Randee Beckman ~Otteridge Farm, LLC (http://on.fb.me/1iJEqvR)~ Marketing Manager - The Clothes Horse & Jennifer Oliver Equine Insurance Specialist

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            AM Lord Elope was the old style Arabian that had no high set tail or other "typical" Arabian characteristics. He was a very poplar sire in the 1960-1970 era for hunter ponies.
                            Randee Beckman ~Otteridge Farm, LLC (http://on.fb.me/1iJEqvR)~ Marketing Manager - The Clothes Horse & Jennifer Oliver Equine Insurance Specialist

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Randee: You know that was just a typo on my part. I owned Lucy Love who is out of Paper Doll, so I obviously know her breeding and who Pandora was bred to. My fingers were typing faster than my brain was thinking!!
                              Sandy
                              www.sugarbrook.com
                              hunter/jumper ponies

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Full disclosure: I own an Arab gelding - obviously I'm not a breeder. But, I know a little about Arabians and just wanted to say that within the breed there are subtypes. For the reasons expressed by others in this thread, some of those subtypes wouldn't work well as a cross for hunters. I'm thinking of modern halter type Arabs - tend to be tall and lanky and extreme in type. Probably not what you're looking for. Other lines are much more "hunter-y" looking and might be worth looking into. Al-Marah (that's the "AM" in the stallion's name mentioned earlier) is still in existence and is active in Arabian sport horse showing. Their horses tend to be rounder, many have hunter style action, and are known for good dispositions.

                                My point is...visit the Arabian Sport Horse Nationals (will be in Idaho this year but will return to the Kentucky Horse Park in 2011) and see a different type of Arab than commonly seen at Class A Arabian shows and mainstream Arab breeding. I think you will be pleasantly surprised at the quality and sport horsiness to be found.

                                (Hope I'm not stepping out of line here - just hate to see all Arabs get painted with the same brush, especially since my boy is sane and seems to have a great mind and gaits for dressage. He does, however, have the dreaded tail carriage which I have gotten used to being ribbed about!)

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  My foundation broodmare from years ago, Revelie, was 1/2 arab on her sires side. Revelie no more looked like those wild eyed , high stepping Arabs I see in the ring than the man in the moon. She was an "A" show pony who just had that amazing face and huge eyes. Her two daughters have been successful broodmares for me , producing 16 foals between them.

                                  I suspected, but never really knew, that their must be two types of Arabs. Now I know. Thanks for the info.
                                  Sandy
                                  www.sugarbrook.com
                                  hunter/jumper ponies

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    For example...

                                    Happened to think about this horse after my last post. He was quite the sensation at the 2009 Arabian Sport Horse Nationals:

                                    http://www.arabianhorses.org/competi...Story/Vol5.asp

                                    Just so you can see that not all Ay-rabs are firebreathing, hollow backed crazies!

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Oh, he is lovely. Diane Waldron, his breeder, is a very good friend of mine. Ellen has such good taste!!
                                      Sandy
                                      www.sugarbrook.com
                                      hunter/jumper ponies

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        My first show pony was an arab cross. He was a perfect hunter pony and took me to the Royal Winter Fair.

                                        I also rode a full polish arab large pony when I was just starting my show career. She could really jump! and was a hack winner too! She was from a Bask stallion I believe.

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