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I want to breed Arabian x WBs.... start my education, please!

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  • I want to breed Arabian x WBs.... start my education, please!

    This could be a fool's errand, but I'd like to breed a few *very good quality* Arabian x WBs for the dressage- and hunter rings of the Arabian Sporthorse World and also for legitimate and competitive performances in the USEF/USDF rings.

    Right now, there are very few of these horses out there for sale and boy-howdy they are hard to find! (BTW, if you have one to sell me that's not priced like an imported baby WB and/or has a front end over fences that's good enough, mellow tail and good mind...please sell it to me!)

    But, IMO, the ArabianxWB is *the* cross that will dominate in the Half-Arabian divisions in the Sporthorse World. I lucked out and bought one. But as an F1 cross, she's and "end product" of a breeding system. And all of them are since the only option for her offspring is produce a 3/4 Arabian which will not win, I suspect, against the horses with more WB in them. Sigh.

    In addition I find it quite hard to find an Arabian with a shoulder that is free enough for my taste. To me, that means I probably need to start with a WB mare and choose from the rather small set of Arabian stallions out there who check my boxes. But it would be easier and cheaper to buy the Arabian mare. Besides it being easier and cheaper to find the Arabian mare and use one of the many good WBs out there, can you think of another reason to do it this way? Am I right that baby will be bigger if he spends his in-utero time inside the bigger animal? He should do his ontogenetic development inside, say, the Chevy Suburban (with third-row seating) rather than the more sporty but cramped MiniCooper?

    This will be a long, money-burning and "bad idea" project, of course. But I have been in this spot before where I had to breed what I couldn't find to buy.

    Thank you in advance for whatever advice you have.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat

  • #2
    I have one coming this May! 16.3 hand ISR approved mare (by the show jumping stallion Gordios) x the Arabian stallion Legacy Obsidian. Can't tell you what its front end will look like over fences, but it should be incredibly nice. Will be presented for ISR registration after foaling.

    Comment


    • #3
      I think you might be surprised, as quite a few of the European warmblood registries will accept sport quality Arabians for their breeding books (and whose subsequent offspring can be registered as a fully papered warmblood). In the same way you'll see "xx" notated in warmblood pedigrees for full Thoroughbreds, You'll see "aa" and "ao" (I think) for anglos and full arabs. Can't recall what Shagyas get notated with.

      I think it's generally easier for Mares to be accepted for WB breeding than Stallions, but there are approved Arabian stallions out there. If I wanted to do this, I'd start doing searches in dressage pedigrees that have aa and ao in them, as well as tracking down any Arabian stallions who've been fully approved to breed with a European Warmblood registry.

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      • #4
        I worked on an Arabian breeding farm for a few years in college. They bred pure Arabs and a handful of Arabian/Friesian cross for personal use. They bred a small handful of Arab/TB cross and Arabian/ Hanoverian crosses. At that time they couldn't give away the Arabian/Hanoverian crosses which was crazy to me because they were easily the nicest horses on the property. It was a really nice cross but the babies had a tendency to take on similar personalities as their Arab dam, so if the broodmare was a bit looky and not quite a steady eady, the foal was usually the same way. We generally weaned asap and stuck them in a small herd with quarter horses and they groomed them to be steady types.

        I broke two of the Arab/Hanoverian babies at 3 and they were easy uncomplicated, nice pieces of horseflesh. Eventually sold to a foxhunting home at 4. My favorite cross was the Arab/TB they were a flippin blast to ride, but difficult to get started. They were smart and very reactive. The Friesian cross was fun to look at and watch, but were not overly special to me, but I'm not a Friesian person.

        What Arabian stallions were you looking at? There are a few really nice ones out there.
        "Anyone who tries to make brownies without butter should be arrested." Ina Garten

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        • #5
          I adore my Hanoverian/Arab cross gelding. Sire is Tristtan+++// out of an Adios III mare. I lucked up and got a super combo from both sides. I've done all his training and started him myself. Super friendly, smart, willing, competitive and a nice mover (7-8 on gait scores at USDF shows). If he's still breeding, I can't recommend Tristtan enough...old sport horse bloodlines that are hard to find (and he competed through GP dressage and did jumpers as well). From what I've seen of the arab/warmblood cross, I prefer the arabian stallion to the warmblood mare.

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          • #6
            Yep, blood on top (meaning Arab stallion on WB mare).

            Show me your horse and I will tell you who you are.

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            • #7
              Well if you believe some of the old time breeders, they believe about 70% of the traits in a foal come from the mare.
              Some also say size of uterus doesn't really matter, that the foal will grow to it's genetically determined sized. But I agree with you that IMO, it would eliminate potential 'oversized' foal birthing problems by using a larger WB mare.
              I'm assuming you would be breeding for your own use and not for re-sale. Correct?

              There's a nice arab stallion near me just starting FEI level dressaage, not sure if he's being bred to outside mares but I can check if you'd like. His owner/rider has been very active in Sporthorse Nationals. Send me a pm if interested.

              "There is no fundamental difference between man and animals in their ability to feel pleasure and pain, happiness, and misery." - Charles Darwin

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              • #8
                I have an Arab/Hanoverian filly, coming 5 - she has been late to mature, so I didn't start her until she was one month away from her fourth birthday but she seems to be having regular growth spurts and is currently a bit rump high. . .. Her breeder expects her to finish at 16 hands - perfect for me. . .
                She is my first Arab/WB cross and I've been delighted with her. She was uncomplicated to start and proved to be a quick study. She is forward without being hot and very business like in her work - her gaits are correct, fluid with good suspension but not so huge for this aging ammy. I think she's going to be really nice. . .
                Her dam is a pure Polish Arab mare who is only 14.3, however, she has had four foals by four different WB stallions and so far they have all matured to over 16 hands - her first son, by Ironman, grew to 17.1.
                Her sire is Rosenthal who seems to nick nicely with Arabians - he actually has Shagya lines in his pedigree on both top and bottom - goes back to Ramses through his sire and Ramses was an Anglo-Shagya.

                Arabians and Shagyas have long been considered "the great improvers" by horsemen for centuries.

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                • #9
                  My daughter bred her little Arab mare to Rosenthal. He has had some gorgeous Arab x babies. And the resulting filly was stunning, with a great brain. Unfortunately, she injured a hind leg in a tangle with a fence as a youngster, so is for light riding only, but what a doll. My daughter bred the same mare to a Lusitano and got the most gorgeous moving, but spooky, filly. Not nearly as tall, either. I love Arab x WB...

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                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Katona View Post
                    I think you might be surprised, as quite a few of the European warmblood registries will accept sport quality Arabians for their breeding books (and whose subsequent offspring can be registered as a fully papered warmblood). In the same way you'll see "xx" notated in warmblood pedigrees for full Thoroughbreds, You'll see "aa" and "ao" (I think) for anglos and full arabs. Can't recall what Shagyas get notated with.

                    I think it's generally easier for Mares to be accepted for WB breeding than Stallions, but there are approved Arabian stallions out there. If I wanted to do this, I'd start doing searches in dressage pedigrees that have aa and ao in them, as well as tracking down any Arabian stallions who've been fully approved to breed with a European Warmblood registry.
                    Thank you. That's a good idea for my little F1 mare, should she prove herself to be exceptional. Right now, there's not enough there on paper or in perfect conformation to warrant being bred. But if she did the horse equivalent of winning a Nobel Prize in Chemistry in the show ring, darn-tootin' I'd get her approved and bred to a WB Stallion.

                    The idea about finding an Approved but Arabian stallion is a good idea, too. Thank you!
                    The armchair saddler
                    Politically Pro-Cat

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I grew up on an Arabian breeding farm. I worked for Arabian breeding farms in high school. Out of college, I worked for a WB breeder who utilized a lot of Arabian mares with amazing results (from the description, I'm wondering if she bred Shagyas' horse). I currently own an Arabian x Selle Francais, bred by the same breeder. I have a lot of friends who have pursued these crosses independently.

                      I don't have enough first hand experience with "blood on top" crosses by Arabian stallions out of WB mares to speak to them. I have dealt with A LOT of foals out of Arabian mares by WB stallions.

                      When the cross works, it works phenomenally well. BUT... I've also seen it "fail" more dramatically than some other crosses. I think because if you don't have an Arabian mare who throws the right "type," you get a mismash of parts. Even an Arabian mare who looks phenotypically appropriate may have a long line of "main ring" genes behind her... or, she just may not throw her best traits, which can happen with any breed mare. The Arabian cull rate has always seemed above average to me when breeding Arab x WB crosses.

                      I wish I could direct you towards certain lines of Arabian mares to seek out, but I personally can't speak to any patterns I've observed. Some Crabbet mares are suitable, others are not. Some Polish lines work well, others do not. Same goes for Russian. One of the best Arabian broodmares for WB crosses I knew was heavy on the Egyptian breeding, which is not something I would typically expect to work. But she was just an exceptional mare who improved herself and the stallion every time.
                      Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        We bred several over the years, Trakehner stallion on Arab mares. The offspring were beautiful, nice sized horses, with an exceptional jump, but had too much engine for the average rider. BUT we retained two mares of this cross and they have produced wonderful Ammy friendly, talented horses when bred back to our Hanoverian or our Appy Sport horse stallions.
                        Patty
                        www.rivervalefarm.com
                        Follow us on facebook - https://www.facebook.com/pages/River...ref=ts&fref=ts

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by NoDQhere View Post
                          We bred several over the years, Trakehner stallion on Arab mares. The offspring were beautiful, nice sized horses, with an exceptional jump, but had too much engine for the average rider. BUT we retained two mares of this cross and they have produced wonderful Ammy friendly, talented horses when bred back to our Hanoverian or our Appy Sport horse stallions.
                          Is it possible that came from the Trakehner, or do you think it is 100% Arab influence? I don't follow this belief but I have heard many people say TKs are the hottest of the WBs. I don't necessarily believe that as I've ridden some really hot WBs (HOL/Han) that made TBs look like a chilled faucet..

                          I've ridden some deadhead Arabians, some spicy ones... and I've ridden some quiet TKs, and then some really rowdy ones. Seems to be a lot of variety in both breeds.


                          I don't have skin in this game but I love anglo arabians and have met one Arab x WB (Hols) that was a very, very nice horse. He was a Matcho AA son, which I'll get back to in a moment. Had all the good attributes about an arabian with the jumping and movement of the WB.. and none of the soundness and mental issues so many WBs are plagued with.

                          So it seems to me, maybe an anglo-arab/shagya is suitable as well;, rather than a full arabian mare? That might harm the eligibility of registry? A lot of WBs do trace back to Matcho AA and it's not impossible to find his name in WBs today, especially on the damside as he seems to have done better through his daughters. Anyway I imagine a mare that had Matcho AA damside reasonably close, and Ramses, would pair really well with an Anglo-Shagya or AA.

                          I would always do blood on top, personally.

                          I agree finding the right mare is absolutely important. I would think maybe it's better to to breed a WB mare to a nice Arabian stallion. Arabians can be prolific and you'd have more of an idea what a stallion tends to pass on, and there are some seriously nice Arab stallions right now that actually have the movement needed for dressage. Not many, but some good ones.
                          "i'm a slow learner, it's true."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            It's certainly high on the list of what I would be seeking. I learned to ride on Arabs and then found dressage. But, I'm short. So, 15.2 to 16 hands is perfect for me

                            http://www.kingspassage.com/kp-stallions/saint-sandro/ might be worth learning more about him

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I’m expecting an Arab x Warmblood cross in mid April. Dad is a neat little Crabbet stallion, the mare is Hungarian. Hungarians are similar to Traks in many ways (cavalry history with a lot of blood), and this girl is over 50% TB and looks it... just a little more bone, and a great shoulder. Great jumper, canter is her best gait, big stride but flat mover (hunter like). But she’s VERY forward... an eventing type.

                              One important thing when considering an ArabxWB cross is registry options. My foal will be eligible for full papers from the Hungarian registry according to their rules. The mare is also approved Westfalen, but sire is only Book 2, so I can do a COP with them if I choose and a filly could be approved for pre/mare books given the pedigree rules. I am probably going to register as a Half Arabian too... although I currently am not interested in those shows.

                              I did know going into this that the Hungarian mare I’m using is VERY prepotent. I’ve seen two of her other foals by two different stallions (one was almost 75% Shagya). Both foals were very very similar to the mare. The stallion I used this time has a really sweet ammy friendly temperament, great feet, greet bone, and nice movement - especially his trot. If I get something that is 75% Mom but a little more refined with any of those characteristics from the sire, I’ll be very happy.

                              If the foal is a colt, I will eventually sell (likely after it’s under saddle) and probably try again with this mare.
                              Last edited by Virginia Horse Mom; Jan. 10, 2018, 06:44 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by halt View Post
                                Is it possible that came from the Trakehner, or do you think it is 100% Arab influence? I don't follow this belief but I have heard many people say TKs are the hottest of the WBs. I don't necessarily believe that as I've ridden some really hot WBs (HOL/Han) that made TBs look like a chilled faucet
                                We raised a lot of horses by Meisterwind over the years and the Arab crosses were the "hottest". Not crazy, just high octane and a bit more argumentative. Horses that needed a job.

                                Patty
                                www.rivervalefarm.com
                                Follow us on facebook - https://www.facebook.com/pages/River...ref=ts&fref=ts

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Katona View Post

                                  I think it's generally easier for Mares to be accepted for WB breeding than Stallions, but there are approved Arabian stallions out there. If I wanted to do this, I'd start doing searches in dressage pedigrees that have aa and ao in them, as well as tracking down any Arabian stallions who've been fully approved to breed with a European Warmblood registry.
                                  Thank you for the strategy suggestion. The other point about the generally-large prepotence of the dam is well-taken.

                                  And so it sounds like my best bet would be to find a WB mare who has what I want. For me and this cross, I think that means 1. A superb mind-- quiet and kind enough to compete in the Hunter ring sans any "prep," and 2. A very, good jump-- particularly a great bascule and knees that are level, high and tight. As I see it, many Arabians have a hard time jumping with their upper arms above the horizontal. That's a feature I must improve upon or I won't jump the horse and I need to make a different plan. 3. Uphill build and a bit of leap to her canter; some size. I think these are areas in which the Arabian bauplan is lacking at least as far as the Hunter- and Dressage rings are concerned.

                                  So could you guys please keep your eyes peeled for Arabian Stallions you might do the job and/or Arabian stallions who are both registered purebreds with the AHA and part of a WB registry? The big deal is that the result of this WB/Arabian cross must be eligible for registration as a Half-Arabian or it can't play in the Sporthorse ring.

                                  The Arabian stallion I have seen getting the job done in the USEF hunter ring is Oration. I don't see a ton of scope or power behind but he does use his front end pretty well and he has the look of a horse who will cruise around.

                                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMabzMsd9lE

                                  As I understand it, Arabian Hunters aren't asked to jump more than 3' at the moment and courses are set to allow for horses with varying sizes and lengths of stride to compete against one another. That said, I'd like a horse large enough and athletic enough to get around a 3'6", just in case. It doesn't need to have the stride that would make it competitive with the A/O horses shown by the 1%-ers in Wellington. If I ever get a horse like that, I won't be able to afford it. But it shouldn't be at the limit of it's ability at 3', either.

                                  This is going to take awhile to tee up, but I appreciate your help as I being my education.
                                  The armchair saddler
                                  Politically Pro-Cat

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    FCF Oberons Vanity would probably be an awesome stallion option for what you want, OP. His owner regularly chimes in on these threads, and offers a wealth of information.

                                    Personality wise, the Crabbetts have a reputation for being more level headed than some of the Polish. It was definitely a key factor in stallion selection for my mare.

                                    I REALLY like Oration as well. He’s not approved by Warmblood registries though.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      The stallion I bred to (and am currently showing FWIW) has a really spectacular jump. His name is Legacy Obsidian and he is located in Sulphur Springs, TX.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        FCF Oberon's Vanity has lifetime approval with Westfalen NA, Studbook I.

                                        I do know his owner/breeder (I promise I'm not advertising for her as this horse is pretty well known), but I have had the pleasure of meeting "Obie" as well as many of his relatives and of course, Dawn and Thom. This horse has great character. He has lots of try, a sweet nature, and athletic ability that he passes on to the offspring I've seen. I believe he is only available frozen however as he is in training for competition in dressage. Very nice horse and Dawn is nice as can be and will be straightforward with you in regard to the question "Will Obie help me meet my breeding goals?"
                                        "Horsemanship is not merely a matter of bodily skills, but is based on scholarship and, therefore, is a matter of the mind and intellect." Charles de Kunffy

                                        http://www.equiimages.com

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