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OK...what does "Proud Cut" "really" mean?

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  • OK...what does "Proud Cut" "really" mean?

    Hopefully this question is in the right place.

    Recently, in talking about our Cryptorchid, I'd wondered if perhaps what I'd heard called "proud cut" as a youngster maybe was actually a stud who had only dropped one, only one was removed, and therefore he still had a 2nd stuck up in there somewhere that it doesn't belong.

    Then, again recently, I had someone tell me she has a "proud cut gelding" who "still has one (dropped) testicle". I indicated that he was probably previously a crypt, and she got very irritated, and informed me "i told you, he is proud cut, he IS a gelding, and does not attempt to breed mares", also that there are 2 other 'geldings' from the same place and same basic timeframe, also with 1 dangling testicle and yet "proud cut and gelded".

    She acted like, DUH, of course I should know this and i should know not only what she meant by proud cut with still having 1 testicle, but that it was "OBVIOUS" why the former owners would have done this.

    So...yet again I let ya'all know that there's plenty of horse related stuff I DON'T know, particularly things related to stallions/geldings/the act of gelding itself, etc.

    Looking forward to your input.
    (MODERATORS, if this belongs in the OFF COURSE forum instead, please relocate. I figured the breeder group might know more detail for me, but perhaps not...)
    Last edited by Crosswinds Rescue; Jul. 9, 2010, 03:57 PM. Reason: clarifying
    AnnMarie Cross, Pres, Crosswinds Equine Rescue, cwer.org
    Sidell IL (near Champ./UofI/Danville IL/IN state border)

  • #2
    As far as I've ever heard a testicle retained is a cryptorchid and proud cut means that there is tissue left behind that can generate testosterone, not a whole testicle.
    It's a small world -- unless you gotta walk home.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Mosey_2003 View Post
      As far as I've ever heard a testicle retained is a cryptorchid and proud cut means that there is tissue left behind that can generate testosterone, not a whole testicle.
      This!

      Comment


      • #4
        No, she was right the first time.

        THe phrase originated back when ranch hands (and not vets) used to castrate the horses in the fall of their weaning year before they went out to pasture for the winter. If a colt had only dropped one, it was just cut off since the remaining testicle - if retained - would likely render him sterile. Since vets were in short supply, most of these guys never had the abdominal surgery to remove the retained testicle and therefore remained "proud cut" and not a true gelding.
        Holly
        www.ironhorsefrm.com
        Oldenburg foals and young prospects
        LIKE us on Facebook!

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        • Original Poster

          #5
          Holly,
          Thanks so much for this information. Keep it coming, folks, if others know anything else?

          Perhaps, like so many things in the horsey world, different people use the same term differently?

          And does anyone have any idea why this gal thought the former owner would've wanted him "fixed but left 1 testicle"? I tried to guess/imagine, something to do with rodeo broncs and the bucking strap maybe? (the horse that started the conversation is a wild mustang)
          AnnMarie Cross, Pres, Crosswinds Equine Rescue, cwer.org
          Sidell IL (near Champ./UofI/Danville IL/IN state border)

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Crosswinds Rescue View Post
            And does anyone have any idea why this gal thought the former owner would've wanted him "fixed but left 1 testicle"? I tried to guess/imagine, something to do with rodeo broncs and the bucking strap maybe? (the horse that started the conversation is a wild mustang)
            Not to be a jerk, but the obvious is .............because the surgery to do it right costs more than the horse is worth? Lots of the old time ranch folk (IMO) think.....if he is sterile, he might as well be a gelding, so why worry about that other testicle.
            Holly
            www.ironhorsefrm.com
            Oldenburg foals and young prospects
            LIKE us on Facebook!

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #7
              Originally posted by Iron Horse Farm View Post
              Not to be a jerk, but the obvious is .............because the surgery to do it right costs more than the horse is worth? Lots of the old time ranch folk (IMO) think.....if he is sterile, he might as well be a gelding, so why worry about that other testicle.
              Not being a jerk, thank you for keeping up the discussion.

              she says he didn't have a 'missing' testicle, but that they obviously intentionally removed one and 'proud cut him' to leave the 2nd testicle DANGLING (i should've said that! it is dropped and supposedly always has been) and yet, somehow, he is sterile, is 'gelded', and has 'no interest in breeding mares'.
              AnnMarie Cross, Pres, Crosswinds Equine Rescue, cwer.org
              Sidell IL (near Champ./UofI/Danville IL/IN state border)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Crosswinds Rescue View Post
                Not being a jerk, thank you for keeping up the discussion.

                she says he didn't have a 'missing' testicle, but that they obviously intentionally removed one and 'proud cut him' to leave the 2nd testicle DANGLING (i should've said that! it is dropped and supposedly always has been) and yet, somehow, he is sterile, is 'gelded', and has 'no interest in breeding mares'.
                ummmmmmm, wow. really, really sounds like she doesn't know what she is talking about.

                1. they don't do vasectomies in horses (leaving the testicle but tying the tubes), so if one is hanging, he aint a gelding!

                2. likely scenario.....he was proud cut by someone (not a vet) and the second testicle eventually dropped on it's own.
                Holly
                www.ironhorsefrm.com
                Oldenburg foals and young prospects
                LIKE us on Facebook!

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                • #9
                  I think proud cut is a term that has more than one meaning. My understanding of it is when the testicles are removed (both of them!) but the epididymis is left. The remaining tissue can produce a small amount of testosterone so the horse develops some stallion-like characteristics such as a crest but is not fertile and is generally easier to handle than a stallion. Circus horses used to be proud cut to make them look more showy in the ring.

                  The woman you spoke to sounds as if she doesn't know very much. The attitude you describe is one I've found people use to cover up their own lack of knowledge. A dangling intact testicle sounds as if the horse *should* be fertile. If a testicle is retained in the abdomen the body heat damages the sperm and renders the horse infertile. Retained testicles are often not normal either. The problem with leaving them inside the horse is they have can turn cancerous which is why it is recommended surgery is undertaken to remove them. But a dangling intact testicle? That's a fertile stallion!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by stolensilver View Post
                    The woman you spoke to sounds as if she doesn't know very much. The attitude you describe is one I've found people use to cover up their own lack of knowledge.
                    THIS. (and so much nicer than i wanted to say it!)
                    Holly
                    www.ironhorsefrm.com
                    Oldenburg foals and young prospects
                    LIKE us on Facebook!

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Crosswinds Rescue View Post

                      And does anyone have any idea why this gal thought the former owner would've wanted him "fixed but left 1 testicle"? I tried to guess/imagine, something to do with rodeo broncs and the bucking strap maybe? (the horse that started the conversation is a wild mustang)
                      Um, what on earth would a bucking strap that goes around the flank have to do with the testicles? Oh, wait, nothing. The bucking strap/testicle thing is a myth.
                      "Are you yawning? You don't ride well enough to yawn. I can yawn, because I ride better than you. Meredith Michael Beerbaum can yawn. But you? Not so much..."
                      -George Morris

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                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        Stolen,
                        Thanks. I feel better! So I'm not losing my mind...and my logic made some sense at least. I'm not sure what the real situation is with this gal or this horse...

                        Interestingly, in one spot she calls him 'a proud cut stallion' but in another she is angrily telling me "of course he is a gelding".
                        AnnMarie Cross, Pres, Crosswinds Equine Rescue, cwer.org
                        Sidell IL (near Champ./UofI/Danville IL/IN state border)

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #13
                          Originally posted by SaturdayNightLive View Post
                          Um, what on earth would a bucking strap that goes around the flank have to do with the testicles? Oh, wait, nothing. The bucking strap/testicle thing is a myth.
                          SaturdayNight -- I was just trying to guess at this "obvious reason" that the prior owner would've wanted to have these 3 stallions "gelded" but with 1 dangling testicle -- and trying to guess that maybe tehre was some sort of weird bucking strap that had an extension or some such thing...
                          AnnMarie Cross, Pres, Crosswinds Equine Rescue, cwer.org
                          Sidell IL (near Champ./UofI/Danville IL/IN state border)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Mosey_2003 View Post
                            As far as I've ever heard a testicle retained is a cryptorchid and proud cut means that there is tissue left behind that can generate testosterone, not a whole testicle.
                            Ummm...my Vet says that this is correct for Proud cut.

                            Cryptorchid or monorchid are not proud cut.
                            And a horse with a retained testicle is also a rig or ridgeling.
                            And they may not have a working testicle until it drops but doesn't mean they aren't making hormones and in fact can be way more difficult to deal with than a horse with both dropped.
                            In 5 years I have had to deal with 2 Rigs.
                            When 1 is up and 1 is down the down testicle will be larger and attempt to make up the diffence of 2. Hence lots of hormones working overtime.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=8285

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #16
                                Really interesting article.

                                I wonder if the other gal was actually meaning to say they left PART of the testicle, like this article talks about.
                                AnnMarie Cross, Pres, Crosswinds Equine Rescue, cwer.org
                                Sidell IL (near Champ./UofI/Danville IL/IN state border)

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  There's no sane physiologic reason why, in a case where both testicles have dropped, you'd cut one but not the other.

                                  If you wanted the horse sterile but still producing hormone, you'd leave the hormone-producing tissue and take out the reproductive parts. I guess that's the horse equivalent to a "vasectomy". Why they'd only do it for one testicle and not both I don't know, except to guess that outright removal is probably easier and less expensive - so remove one, do the partial surgery on the other.

                                  But to leave the remaining testicle whole, that makes no sense whatsoever. The horse would not be sterile, nor would he have less testosterone - the hormonal feedback loop would just cause the remaining testicle to increase production. If that person you talked to is, against all odds, correct and the horse actually did drop both testicles normally and one was removed and the other left alone, then all that means is that the horse was put through completely unnecessary surgery, the end effect of which was...nothing.
                                  Proud Member Of The Lady Mafia

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Crosswinds Rescue View Post
                                    Really interesting article.

                                    I wonder if the other gal was actually meaning to say they left PART of the testicle, like this article talks about.
                                    Unfortunately, there is a LOT of misunderstanding about gelding, crypthorchids and what will generate/cause sexual behavior. Dr. McDonnell has done LOTS to answer those kinds of questions, but some of the myths still persist. As she noted, the testicles are where testosterone is produced. The epididymis is (oversimplification) where the sperm reside while they mature, but, as far as is known and understood, doesn't produce any male hormones.

                                    It used to be common practice, if a colt was laid down to geld and only one testicle was found, to go ahead and remove it. Unfortunately, it was then assumed that the colt was indeed a gelding and unknowing buyers may end up with what in reality was, at least in behavior, a stallion. It is now considered unethical by the AVMA for a vet to remove just one testicle. Either locate the second one, or leave the one that is descended.

                                    There are tests that can be done to determine if there is testicular tissue still left. There are also a serious of hormone injections that can "assist" in getting a testicle to descend if it's just "stuck" in the inguinal canal. It will work in some cases. We attempted it with a colt that had a testicle up in the abdominal cavity and HOLY SMOKES, BATMAN!!! The descended testicle almost doubled in size! We ended up having to take the colt up to the university to be gelded <sigh>. Considerably more expensive than just a standard gelding.
                                    Equine-Reproduction.com Now offering one on one customized training!
                                    Leg-Up Equestrian Assistance Program, Inc. A 501(c)(3) non-profit charity

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                                    • #19
                                      In the UK it merely means that it's a gelding but he retains some of the presence and opinions and perhaps even sexual behaviour that's more normally associated with a stallion.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Equine Reproduction View Post
                                        It used to be common practice, if a colt was laid down to geld and only one testicle was found, to go ahead and remove it. Unfortunately, it was then assumed that the colt was indeed a gelding and unknowing buyers may end up with what in reality was, at least in behavior, a stallion. It is now considered unethical by the AVMA for a vet to remove just one testicle. Either locate the second one, or leave the one that is descended.
                                        Kathy, that is why I was trying to be clear that often these are done without a vet. When I was a girlscout (please no snarky comments ), we had a week on a dude ranch. It included watching the colts become geldings - no vet in attendance. It was just considered part of the farmhand's job. Vets cost $.

                                        And I have heard stories about laying them down, cutting off the one testicle and a year later finding that the other one had dropped.
                                        Holly
                                        www.ironhorsefrm.com
                                        Oldenburg foals and young prospects
                                        LIKE us on Facebook!

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