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Irish Draught crossed with WB vs TB

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  • Irish Draught crossed with WB vs TB

    Since I cannot ride right now (injury) I thought I'd peruse some stallions. I have an Irish Draught mare that I plan on getting inspected next year. Pending approval I will likely breed her the following year for a sport horse. I have discussed this at length with a lot of the breed enthusiasts but thought I'd ask the COTH experts

    She is just four, will likely change a little bit. The first three pictures are from a show in September. The last is from yesterday in all her scruffy glory, and looking a bit butt high.

    My goal is to have a personal sport horse, but I think it's only responsible to breed something that if push comes to shove, could be marketable. The traditional Irish Sport Horse is ID/TB but I know warmbloods sell. I personally love TBs. If you were looking at a ISH youngster would you prefer a TB or WB cross?

    Also....have you bred either of these crosses? What stallions would you recommend? Temperament, trainability, ammy friendly are of the utmost importance. Or course soundness and athleticism are also up there.

    There are so so so so so many stallions out there! It's overwhelming.

    If you are into ID's, here is her breeding:

    http://new.idshs.com.au/perl/search....by_rose&gens=5

    Thanks in advance for any input!

  • #2
    I dont breed IDs but their smaller relative the Connemara. For brains, willingness and try I love the Connemara x TB. To me this cross is the most like our purebreds with more size and blood more athletic scope and endurance. My second favorite cross is the Holsteiner x Connemara using a Holsteiner with a lot of TB (in fact the more the better). Its very likely your mare will give more her type so you will want to be looking for a refining stallion and a lot of natural thrust/uphill balance Another way to go might be to find a "Type Setting Stallion" or Type Improver. JM2C.
    "You can look at a horse and know what he/she seems to be; you can study the pedigree and know what the horse ought to be; but only the offspring can tell you what horse really is..."
    Redbud Ranch

    Comment


    • #3
      In Ireland there is now an organized group which has recently been officially recognized that is devoted to breeding the Traditional Irish Horse, which they define as RID + TB. They are trying to save the Irish horse as it has always been bred to preserve what they believe to be unique and worthwhile qualities--which certainly seems to be true of the traditional Irish horse brain.
      "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
      Thread killer Extraordinaire

      Comment


      • #4
        Suggest you start here;
        http://www.horsesportireland.ie/bree...on-selections/
        ... _. ._ .._. .._

        Comment


        • #5
          Actually, the Traditional Irish Horse Section includes 3 breeds, and not 2. Traditional Irish Horse includes: the Irish Draught, Thoroughbred and Connemara Pony only:. http://www.horsesportireland.ie/bree...-tih-category/
          "You can look at a horse and know what he/she seems to be; you can study the pedigree and know what the horse ought to be; but only the offspring can tell you what horse really is..."
          Redbud Ranch

          Comment


          • #6
            I love the way she's put together.....I'd go with a nice, proven in sport, TB stallion if she were mine. I also wouldn't discount a nice Connamara either, depending on how much height means to you (I'm happy on a big-bodied 15.3 - 16 hh horse)

            Comment


            • #7
              I have one of each! My youngster is a Holst/ID and she is going to be marvelous. Really lucked out with her as she got the absolute best traits from both sides of the cross. I'm sure I'm not 100% objective, LOL...but I am very excited about her. She was out of a nice ID mare by a well-known Holsteiner stallion.

              My older horse is an ID/TB. I've had her since she was a weanling and I love her to death. That said, I think the ID breeders in North America often put these really super ID stallions on sort of average TB mares with inconsistent results. Some, like mine, are more TB-looking...others quite heavy. Never really established an identifiable "brand". My understanding is that you get a more consistent type putting the ID mare to the TB or WB stallion, but the experienced breeders can weigh in on that...maybe I am full of beans!

              Loved all of goodpony's advice. You might broaden your marketability a bit going with a proven WB stallion vs. TB. It's a shame, but I feel like the IDxs are really underappreciated as Ch/Ad/Jr/Am jumpers here in the US. That market would probably not show as much interest in the TBx as they would a WBx.

              Good luck with whatever you decide! You have a lovely mare.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by freyeann View Post
                Since I cannot ride right now (injury) I thought I'd peruse some stallions. I have an Irish Draught mare that I plan on getting inspected next year. Pending approval I will likely breed her the following year for a sport horse. I have discussed this at length with a lot of the breed enthusiasts but thought I'd ask the COTH experts

                She is just four, will likely change a little bit. The first three pictures are from a show in September. The last is from yesterday in all her scruffy glory, and looking a bit butt high.

                My goal is to have a personal sport horse, but I think it's only responsible to breed something that if push comes to shove, could be marketable. The traditional Irish Sport Horse is ID/TB but I know warmbloods sell. I personally love TBs. If you were looking at an ISH youngster would you prefer a TB or WB cross?

                Also....have you bred either of these crosses? What stallions would you recommend? Temperament, trainability, ammy friendly are of the utmost importance. Or course soundness and athleticism are also up there.

                There are so so so so so many stallions out there! It's overwhelming.

                If you are into ID's, here is her breeding:

                http://new.idshs.com.au/perl/search....by_rose&gens=5

                Thanks in advance for any input!
                I would prefer a TB. Why cross an ID with a WB? You'd just have a lukewarm blood (I'm not trying to be "funny;" in effect that's what you'd have). For my money an ID x WB is not an ISH/IDSH.

                Lovely mare, BTW.
                Rack on!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Friend of mine has an RID x Sempatico gelding that is a really pretty mover, though a bit quirky in his personality. He also turned out HUGE, over 17 hands and pretty wide.
                  RH Queen O Anywhere "Sydney"
                  2009 Sugarbush Draft mare
                  Western Dressage
                  Draft Mare blog

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    just chiming back in--i have bred the following crosses Con x Tb, WB x Con as well as Con x WB. In fact i had one of each this year Wb x Con and a Con x TB. One of the reasons for choosing a Wb over a TB is that with Wb x you are likely to improve both thrust and elasticity as well as uphill frame and balance (it's mainly compeititve gait quality and type rather than jumping ability - we know these Irish horses jump just fine). And for sure keep in mind that your mare is just as likely to breed true to herself rather than produce something really modern. attached a couple photos of what we have been getting. The chesnut and bay are both TBx and the 2 greys are both Wb x


                    "You can look at a horse and know what he/she seems to be; you can study the pedigree and know what the horse ought to be; but only the offspring can tell you what horse really is..."
                    Redbud Ranch

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      My daughter owned a 1/2 Holsteiner’,1/4 ID, 1/4 Connemara for 14 years. He was an amazing horse and terrific athlete. She evented him through Preliminary. He also was great at carrying old folks and timid small children around the trails.

                      My friend has an awesome 1/2 Dutch warmblood, 3/8 ID. She paid good money for him and he is worth every penny she paid.

                      Many Irish breeders are breeding WB/ID crosses. Think of all of the successful Cavalier Royale horses.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Some important food for thought on this topic...

                        http://www.teamwindchase.com/SavetheIrishHorse.htm

                        Looks like you have a lovely young mare with traditional lines. If she were mine... I'd look for a really really really nice sport TB stallion who might complement her.

                        Though I wouldn't cross with a Warmblood, I would take a long hard look at all the TB stallions specifically approved for Warmblood registries. Because these particular boys have been identified as sources of quality TB blood for those books in particular. Since your mare is healthy and young, frozen might be a good option as well...

                        Some names to look into... Sea Accounts, Goldmaker, Lucarelli, Chiron, Coconut Grove, and Likoto. Which of those you like best depends on what you are trying to breed... I assume a jumping and eventing type. Your original post speaks about marketability and an ammy friendly temperament. Goldmaker in particular might be a nice fit on those criteria - his lines are known for great temperaments. You would also get a Palomino... Which might be easier to sell if you ever chose too. Sea Accounts is a lovely boy though - I would imagine he's made a few babies with Irish mares and maybe the stallion owner can give info on how that cross worked.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          TB for sure IMO!!!
                          www.crosscreeksporthorses.com
                          Breeders of Painted Thoroughbreds and Uniquely Painted Irish Sport Horses in Northeast Oklahoma

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                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            Thanks so much for all the feedback! Equibrit I'm familiar with HSI as they are harmonized with IDHSNA and will be doing our inspections next year. The stallions there are fun to look at but I'm looking at domestic stallions right now.

                            GoodPony those qualities are exactly why I was considering a WB, uphill, quality of gait...etc.

                            I guess I am just not familiar with enough TB stallions. I LOVED a baby I met by Salute the Truth but he is not an option

                            Virginia Horse Mom yes to jumping and eventing type. My plan is for my horse to do a little bit of everything. But I'd love to get her to training level. I will definitely look into those TBs. I know Goldmaker is popular I just didn't know if it was just his color. Ruby has a good brain (most days!) so I'm hopeful she will pass that on.

                            I was also trying to look at WBs with a lot of TB in them.

                            Obviously I'm not a breeder And if was breeding to an purebred ID I have a short list of stallions but I want her first baby to be a sport horse and a personal horse for me. The ID is an endangered breed and I definitely have friends and professionals to help me with this should I actually do it. Just thought I'd throw that tidbit in there as I don't want to sound like some irresponsible back yard breeder

                            Oh an our inspections do the linear profile which is kind of neat.

                            Thanks again!

                            Feel free to throw out any stallions I should be googling

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              It's definitely sad about Salute the Truth.

                              Goldmaker has 70 day stallion test scores available, and was recently approved by GOV in addition to Westfalen RPSI. It gives you good info about his strengths and weaknesses. I'm not a fan of color breeding in general, but I think they've done great things by putting him through testing and presenting to GOV for approval too.

                              Personally, I really like Lucarelli. He's not produced much yet...but had a long impressive racing career. He's a beautiful distance type with a GREAT pedigree for sport... Nice mover too. It's riskier than some of the others... But he's lovely.

                              One other Warmblood with a lot of TB to look at is Herald III. He's almost 75% blood Holsteiner. My friend had a colt from him this spring.... Nice baby. She bred the mare back again. He's a son of Heraldik.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Don't forget Mystic Replica, if he's still standing. He may be available frozen through SES. He's a horse who ought to cross beautifully with a RID. His owner has lots of eventing experience and ought to be quite worth getting in touch with.
                                Last edited by vineyridge; Nov. 7, 2017, 10:15 AM.
                                "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                                Thread killer Extraordinaire

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Couple of comments. Cavalier Royale did not become the tremendous success he was until after the endurance element was removed from eventing. Same is true of WBs in event breeding in Ireland.

                                  HSI has decided to become just another pan-European WB studbook--at least per one Irish breeder. They do not care about the strengths and characteristics of the old style Irish horses as long as the horse of whatever pedigree was born in Ireland.

                                  One should perhaps also mention that the old style ISH is the only one in the world who was specifically bred for cross country riding. In fact, the old style ISH was originally called the Irish Hunter and, from what I understand, Irish hunting has never been for the faint-hearted.
                                  "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                                  Thread killer Extraordinaire

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    What is now Sport horse Breeding GB has been breeding for Hunting and sport for a very long time; since 1884 in fact.
                                    History


                                    Between the years of 1873 and 1882 no fewer than 197,002 horses were imported into England , chiefly for the army, at a relative cost today of £250million. Consequently, the government at that time was greatly in favour of encouraging the breeding of horses in this country.

                                    This crisis in the British Equestrian Industry coincided with a decision made at a November meeting in 1884 by the Hackney Horses Society’s Council . It was decided to include a class for Thoroughbred stallions suitable for use as hunter sires at their annual show and a “Committee of Management” was formed to administer this new venture . This was followed up a year later at another meeting where a proposal led to the formation of a society for improving the breed of the hunter type horse. The existing Committee of Management responsible for the Thoroughbred Stallion Classes agreed to form the new society , and the Hunters Improvement Society was born.

                                    In 1894 , the Ministry of Agriculture and the War Office offered premiums at £150 to 29 Stallions in the scheme. The Army , via their remount officers, continued to play a major part in the Society/s activities and the financial backing came from the same source right up to the outbreak of the Second World War . After the War, backing was continued by the Totalisator Board
                                    and then by the Horserace Betting Levy Board . Between 1996 — 1998 financial assistance was reduced and finally withdrawn and the society has since had to sustain itself by its own operations.

                                    In 1981 , the Society’s name was extended to ” Hunters Improvement and National Light Horse Breeding Society”. This was intended to reflect the shift in the demand for horses for sport and leisure. In fact, with the Army now almost completely mechanised, the society’s emphasis totally changed and breeders became much more selective. Quality was of the utmost importance and the market for the “competition horse” became very strong. To this aim, the society started to register stallions of other types whilst continuing with its established policy of making available the sound, strong, Thoroughbred Stallion.

                                    In 1998 the society went through its most recent transition and became Sport Horse Breeding of Great Britain. The society now grades and registers all breeds of horse with the main objective of producing a correct, sound, athletic Sport Horse with the potential to exceed in Showjumping, Dressage or Eventing.

                                    ... _. ._ .._. .._

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      #19
                                      Virginia Horse Mom I looked up Lucarelli earlier and he looks really nice! Might need to put him on my short list. I'll have to look into Goldmaker more. I most definitely would not breed for color. I honestly have zero preference on color and am only interested in the horses conformation, temperament and athletic capabilities and yes I've owned a grey horse I think I just kind of discounted him thinking his color was his best attribute since so many people do love that.

                                      Viney Ridge...I have such mixed feelings about HSI. IDHSNA has harmonized with them and there are some benefits and they will be the ones inspecting and grading my mares. But there is the current issue of an ISH being anything born in Ireland. ISH used to mean Irish blood. But now it is anything born in Ireland.

                                      And yes! I bet Mystic Replica would cross great with an ID

                                      So much reading and research to do this winter.


                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        I think she is LOVELY!!!

                                        I have a ISH who is heavily TB bred. His sire is a son of Bassompierre and an ID mare, and my gelding's dam is a crappy (yesreally) TB mare who should have never been bred. My gelding was a stablemen's lien horse I got for dollars, and while he has some crappy feet and a "quirky" personality, his conformation is actually quite nice. He is on the shorter side, just under 16hh, but that could be lack of nutrition moreso than breeding, since everyone in his linage is more than 16hh... I wish he had more leg bone, and a better dam would have gotten him there. Your mare has bone in spades, so I think a nice TB would get you a good sport horse.
                                        COTH's official mini-donk enabler

                                        "I am all for reaching out, but in some situations it needs to be done with a rolled up news paper." Alagirl

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