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Thread on Bill Moroney's Hunter Breeding Comments?

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  • #21
    Right on SilverBalls! I know people that spend over $500.00 per day to drive all over Germany, Belgium and Holland for up to 20 days looking for hunter prospects. I have asked why if they have all that time to shop why don't they take 20 days to drive around the US for prospects? They tell me that they don't exist. Frankly I think they like the ability to hide the purchase price from clients much easier if they shop in Europe. Believe me, the old bot network is alive and well in Germany!!
    On a perhaps more serious note, I think that breeders need to think a bit about training their babies. I have often looked at unbroken 3 year olds here. Often when I ask if they have been free jumped the answer is no. A buyer is rarely going to purchase a horse ( unless it is an exceptional individual) as a sport horse when all they can see it do is run around a pen.
    I know I better flame suit up here, but I find that breeders often send their young stock to trainers that are ill equipped to start a baby properly because the trainer doesn't cost much. Often you get what you pay for. Most of the 3 year olds that I have seen in Europe all w-t-c, jump around over low jumps and most show if they are natural lead changers or not. It is much less a pig in a poke.
    I truly think that the US needs perhaps an East coast and west coast national training center. Funding could come from many different sources. I am NOT saying it would be easy...This would be a reliable place to get babies started and a place where a buyer could go and look at 50 or so horses in one place. I am sure I will hear 10,000 reasons why this couldn't work. I sure would love to see some think sessions to find ways to make it work. It would benefit breeders to have a reliable place to send their horses to get started and provide a good possibility of selling them while they are there.
    We now have an opportunity to entice trainers and buyers to stay home to purchase due to the Euro. Lets not blow the opportunity. We need to make buying USA user friendly. Just a thought folks....
    www.midatlanticeq.com
    Mid-Atlantic Equitation Festival,Scholarships and College Fair
    November 11-13, 2016

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    • #22
      We now have an opportunity to entice trainers and buyers to stay home to purchase due to the Euro. Lets not blow the opportunity. We need to make buying USA user friendly.

      The price disadvantage is gone, seems all US horses are at a 35% discount compared to 2 years ago. Realistic pricing is always an important part. So point trainers/buyers in the right direction, accomodate them, prepare your horses and put some effort into showing them properly when buyers show up.
      I think often the last part is doable for most but often not done well, which is especially sad when buyers come quite a way to see the horses.
      www.immunallusa.com
      www.rainbowequus.com Home of stallions that actually produced champion hunter, jumper and dressage offspring and now also champion eventers

      Comment


      • #23
        Well, Mr Moroney did inspire discussion!

        I champion waiting till the youngsters are 4 for the jumping phase of the IHF. I champion this as a proxy: we need our US bred hunters (to be) to have better flat work training before rushing to show them over courses. I occasionally travel with a few trainers who buy 4-6 4 year olds at a time. All of them can be ridden, know their basic flat work, carry themselves and as a bonus, some are ready to show in the 2'6" division. All are in Europe. If the IHF or any other young horse venue is not encouraging, rewarding the kind of development many of the young horses can get in Europe, I don't see how we will ever compete.
        JMHO

        I am not sure the dressage breeders price the babes more "realistically" because there is the "failed dressage horse" market? I personally cringe with talk like that - supports the notion that our "hunters" are just loser breeding accidents. Why then would anyone look here for a "hunter" - can't breed for them - just need to find one of those mediocre horses in Europe.

        As for foals, look at this kind of website: http://www.fohlenboerse.de/


        If we want to own our North American discipline, then I would hope we are convinced we can BREED and reproduce the desired characteristics for that discipline. Proudly, then, we might see trainers know and LOOK for particular bloodlines, in our NA bred TBs or WBs, for their next performance horse!
        Where the IHF fits into this scenario , I am trying to figure out.
        Amy

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #24
          Oh! I misinterpreted (or read differently) what he was implying from what you read, SilverBalls. I thought he was directing his comments to the average breeder, not the ones who can get those prices. At one point, he wrote something like "because X gets those prices, doesn't mean Y should hold out to get the same." I didn't think he meant, across the board, that the prices need to go down. I thought that is what he meant by being realistic: that NOT everyone can get those prices.

          In many ways, those that do have paid their dues (one way or other) to do so--even though "Y" may have a baby of equal quality. It depends on where you are, who you are, who you run with, etc., etc. (which gets to the networks someone else mentioned--but those networks don't crop up overnight, so again, even getting established in them is part of paying your dues--even if it's only in terms of staying at it, enduring, long enough to make those contacts, I suppose!). That was why I wondered how many of us will still be at it after the "downturn" hopefully heads back up again. Can we endure without compromise (in pricing)?

          Anyway, I'm not sure if I did or did not misread his emphasis being that "automatically" setting a price here or there based on what others do is "unrealistic". I'll admit I read it somewhat fast and don't read as accurately on a computer screen.
          Sportponies Unlimited
          Athletic Thoroughbred crosses for the highly motivated, smaller rider.

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          • #25
            Here's the quote I found most disturbing--and encouraging--in the article.

            As a professional horseman, to me the level of horsemanship displayed by many who were competing at this event was disappointing. During the schooling session, several riders galloped around the ring and jumped and jumped these 3-year-olds to death.

            Many of the horses looked as if they’d never seen a jump in their lives. The horses had no balance, no steering, no understanding of the leg and hand, and no foundation in correct training. Several of the horses had problems with lead changes, and I feel sure after watching that for many of them this problem will continue.

            These riders were trying to teach their horses to jump and go around a course correctly just prior to competing. I was alarmed that anyone or organization would endorse this kind of riding and training. Over the years, the IHF leaders have made concessions to the fact that 3-year-olds are too young to be asked to jump 3' and have lowered the fence height, but that’s not enough.

            The IHF needs to incorporate some standards into what is allowed during the schooling session. It would be far more beneficial for the horses to be allowed to school by jumping the course once without having to dodge other horses careening around the ring out of control. This change would also go far toward encouraging people to train their horses at home before coming to the competition.

            I believe that it’s time for the IHF to showcase 4- and 5-year-olds and leave the 3-year-olds in the in-hand and under saddle classes. It’s so rare to find a 3-year-old capable of functioning at this level. Let’s just allow the 3-year-olds to grow up and get the proper start.
            Are any of the serious breeders on this board jumping three year olds? Under saddle???? I woud no more jump a three year old than fly to the moon. And my mouth dropped open when I saw the 3' remark.

            Wynn, I think you're a excellent spokesperson for sane horse (or pony! ) development. Teddy is 12. How many of the horses Bill speaks about (above) will be sound at 12...after jumping round after round?

            What's really sad is after using up these youngsters, where do they end up when they are no longer sound?

            Oh, and I almost forgot this one ... which caused my hair to stand on end ...
            Another problem that I see came to my attention while judging the breeding section of a competition in Pennsylvania a few years ago. The best horse in the breeding division was at his fourth show of that week and going on to his fifth the following day. This horse had been all over the countryside for an entire week and all to be national champion.
            "For God hates utterly
            The bray of bragging tongues."
            Sophocles, Antigone Spoken by the Leader of the Chorus of Theban Elders

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            • #26
              Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom View Post
              I woud no more jump a three year old than fly to the moon. (snip) Wynn, I think you're a excellent spokesperson for sane horse (or pony!) development. Teddy is 12. How many of the horses Bill speaks about (above) will be sound at 12...after jumping round after round?
              OMom, you might not jump your three year olds, but haven't you bred to stallions who were 100 day tested? I am beginning to repeat myself. If you people have such a problem with young horses being started under saddle and jumping, you need to START with the 100 day testing schemes most warmblood breeders heartily endorse. The 100 day test asks A LOT more of a young horse than the IHF program does.

              And yes, I can immediately think of one coming 13 year old gelding who did the futurity growing up. He has continued to be a success at both 3'6 and 3'. I believe he is the rule rather than the exception.

              Comment


              • #27
                Originally posted by CuriosoJorge View Post
                OMom, you might not jump your three year olds, but haven't you bred to stallions who were 100 day tested?
                Nope. I've bred ONE horse to date. And that was from my stallion. I choose not to send a stallion to the 100 day test. I am not in ANY hurry... I've seen what "hurrying" can do to a horse. I have a QH that had to be retired late in his 7 year old year because of what had been done to him as a youngster. Believe me, I've learned very much the hard way...very very VERY much the hard way.

                Now, you might be able to stretch the point by saying I BOUGHT a horse that was *sired* by horse that was in the European 100 day test (Sandro Hit). But, that was in 2004 when I had a different point of view. I do not think today I would make the same choices I made in the past.

                Additionally, while many of the 100 day test stallions were indeed three-year olds, many also took the point hit for being older. MOST of the breeders I have chatted with over the years thought that IF one was to do the 100dt, taking the point hit with an older stallion was the better way to go.

                Regardless, Bill Moroney is not an amateur breeder/rider such as myself. He is an experienced professional and he is the president of the USHJA. I would suggest that as such, making a statement such as he has made in CoTH (which isn't exactly an unread rag) was not done on a whim, or done lightly. I would suggest that the comments made were done with a great deal of sober reflection about the repercussions. Furthermore, I would suggest that he did so out of concern for the welfare of the horse. Which, IMHO, is exactly what our leaders should be doing. No matter what,... the horse's welfare should come first.

                Anyway,... this is not to start an argument, just some thoughts as I read the article.
                "For God hates utterly
                The bray of bragging tongues."
                Sophocles, Antigone Spoken by the Leader of the Chorus of Theban Elders

                Comment


                • #28
                  Originally posted by CuriosoJorge View Post
                  OMom, you might not jump your three year olds, but haven't you bred to stallions who were 100 day tested? I am beginning to repeat myself. If you people have such a problem with young horses being started under saddle and jumping, you need to START with the 100 day testing schemes most warmblood breeders heartily endorse. The 100 day test asks A LOT more of a young horse than the IHF program does.

                  And yes, I can immediately think of one coming 13 year old gelding who did the futurity growing up. He has continued to be a success at both 3'6 and 3'. I believe he is the rule rather than the exception.
                  I posted the info below on the thread in H/J in response to Leland's comment about later careers of the IHF horses. So, no they do not just disappear or all go lame immediately following the IHF. The majority go on to have productive careers. Do some eventually go lame? Sure, but that can be said of any training program.

                  "Quote:
                  Originally Posted by Leland
                  I have tried to track the fate of IHF winners forward from the results of 4 years ago (the three year olds) - extremely difficult - name changes, broken, who knows? Can't find many in the USET award lists under their original IHF names.
                  And until a veterinarian tells me there is no need to worry about trauma from aggressive work before growth plate closure, I am not ready to abandon my concern over that issue (sorry Fish - your reassurances don't convince me)
                  Anecdotal evidence of "I knew a horse" is not what science is made of.
                  Amy "

                  I looked up the 3yr old Colts and Geldings from the 2004 Finals. Funny thing, I found show records for all of them. One has been showing at WEF, another at shows like Lake Placid so I guess they are doing OK in their show careers. For the heck of it I looked up two of the winners from the 4yr old division in 2004. They also have show records.
                  I'm sure Fish will clarify but I think that reference was to studies of race horses and the effects of training them at 2 as opposed to waiting till they were older. So not anecdotal evidence.

                  The 100 day test is considerably more taxing to a 3 year old that IHF could ever be, yet the test is supported by many on this forum.

                  IJF starts at 4, you have young horse eventing competitions where they jump around 3'3" as 4 year olds. There are international Young Horse competitions in each discipline. In order to compete at a high level do you think those horses got started a few weeks before a qualifier?
                  All this happens so that horses can be marketed. So you either step up and compete in these venues or you don't. If not then don't complain that everybody buys young horses in Europe.
                  Fan of Sea Accounts

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                  • #29
                    Originally posted by PineTreeFarm View Post
                    IJF starts at 4, you have young horse eventing competitions where they jump around 3'3" as 4 year olds.
                    And yes, PTF. My stallion competed in that very same 4-year old class, which was held in November of his 4 year old year, so, in fact, he was four and a half when he did TWO ROUNDS at 3'3".

                    Was he trained at 3'3"? NO. Was he trained at 3'? Occasionally. Was it tough for him at the show? YOU BET! Was he over jumping like crazy? YOU BET. Would I do it again ... hmmmmm. I don't know,... I really, honestly do not know.

                    His three year old year was spent doing flatwork ... 90% of the time. Because that's where, I believe, the important work is. As Bill said:
                    The horses had no balance, no steering, no understanding of the leg and hand, and no foundation in correct training.
                    That's where my focus was when my stallion was three. Flat work, flat work, flat work. And SOME jumping...nothing really more than 2'. Generally speaking of course.
                    "For God hates utterly
                    The bray of bragging tongues."
                    Sophocles, Antigone Spoken by the Leader of the Chorus of Theban Elders

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      No need to be so defensive Omom.
                      But when I see somebody react that way when I said nothing about you or your horse, well I just have to wonder...

                      It might be a good idea to read Lauriep's comments on the other thread. She was at the IHF and she has a different take on what happened and why. You know, just to take a balanced approach to the situation.

                      IHF is 2'6". The two regionals and the finals are in the late summer, early fall. Not every horse is ready for it but many are. After all, some of them are almost three and a half.
                      Fan of Sea Accounts

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                      • #31
                        There are always going to be people that abuse the schooling, in any classes! Yes I saw some people schooling the crap out of the 3 yr olds, but I also saw many jump a couple and leave. I had a 3 yr old there with a client. She mostly walked around the ring and jumped a couple and left. She was 4th in both 3 yr old jumping classes and she was not overjumped. I started her and I can assure you, she jumped only poles and x's up to the last couple of months before IHF. Some people do care for their horses and it is sad that so many people think this is abusing their talents. I do see some people do it, but not all!

                        As far as horses that graduate from IHF, we have 4 at our barn right now! They are all sound and all doing quite well in their respective divisions.

                        I think that ticketed schooling would be a great idea for the IHF horses! I am sure it will be discussed and if it is possible time wise, I know that the IHF committee would be happy to do that.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Moving forward, it has already been established how we ALL share a passion for horses and have immense pride in our animals and programs.

                          Let us not loose sight of the fact that collectively we can do something. If we leave it up to the current "regime" ... well I'm afraid it's easy to talk and point out flaws... but actions speak louder than words.
                          North Americans are full of pride and ego, and that's what makes everyone so unique. That being said, we must remember that Europe offers a "safe haven" for professionals to basically import horses and charge "what the traffic will bear". It's not that easy here!

                          The IHF bashing must stop. They are not impervious to imperfections by any means. BUT they have started a foundation that can be "tailor made" to suit OUR needs with positive discussion and implementation.
                          To get an idea of how progeny are progressing, the IHF set some ground rules. Instead of having three year olds jump a three foot course... what about an old fashioned hunter hack class the has them jump 2 jumps. Maybe trot in and canter out... Save the courses for the 4-5 year olds.
                          This way talents can be accentuated to showcase our pride & joy!

                          I am comitted to seeing this through in my own small way. If that means posting on BB's, writing articles with a close friend that showcase the POSITIVE things that breeders, owners, and professionals are accomplishing here... then so be it. Everyone can make a difference in their own way.

                          In my opinion, Hunter Breeding was given a "bum rap" by Mr. Moroney.
                          ~ Bill Rube ~
                          http://www.bydesignfarm.com
                          Check us out on Facebook

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                          • #33
                            One other thing... Pwynnnorman... sometimes for the life of me I cannot follow your thought process. I often think you are reading one thread and posting on another.
                            I am just offering some constructive criticism... no harm meant.
                            ~ Bill Rube ~
                            http://www.bydesignfarm.com
                            Check us out on Facebook

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                            • #34
                              Originally posted by CuriosoJorge View Post
                              OMom, you might not jump your three year olds, but haven't you bred to stallions who were 100 day tested? I am beginning to repeat myself. If you people have such a problem with young horses being started under saddle and jumping, you need to START with the 100 day testing schemes most warmblood breeders heartily endorse. The 100 day test asks A LOT more of a young horse than the IHF program does.
                              I am completely opposed to the 100-day test for any of my 3 year olds.
                              Roseknoll Sporthorses
                              www.roseknoll.net

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                              • #35
                                Originally posted by SilverBalls View Post
                                To get an idea of how progeny are progressing, the IHF set some ground rules. Instead of having three year olds jump a three foot course... what about an old fashioned hunter hack class the has them jump 2 jumps. Maybe trot in and canter out... Save the courses for the 4-5 year olds.
                                This way talents can be accentuated to showcase our pride & joy!

                                .
                                That is not a bad idea. Jumping a full course and expecting lead changes is a lot more challenging for a youngster.
                                Roseknoll Sporthorses
                                www.roseknoll.net

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                                • #36
                                  What I would love to see is a hack class, and a jumping couse at 2' for 3 year olds.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center View Post
                                    What I would love to see is a hack class, and a jumping couse at 2' for 3 year olds.
                                    I am not sure a whole course is the answer... regardless of the height. It will still require the same dynamics, and that in my opinion is alot to ask of a three year old.
                                    ~ Bill Rube ~
                                    http://www.bydesignfarm.com
                                    Check us out on Facebook

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                                    • #38
                                      I like the hack class idea... without a course... It would give a complete enough picture of the youngster's abilities to have value without over stressing
                                      "It's not how good you ride, It's how good your horse covers for you." -Kristan
                                      Magic Rose Farm- home of Beste Gold & Hot Shot
                                      Beste Gold & Offspring on Facebook
                                      Magic Rose Farm Warmbloods on FB

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                                      • #39
                                        I mean no harm in mentioning my inability to find statistics on prior IHF winners. And if they are out there winning or even not, shame on our statistics (which is what I do - statistics):

                                        I am only interested in doing the analysis - I have no reason to bash the IHF - I only question if this is indeed the showcase of our future performance stars. Here's why:

                                        here is the list of the 2004 winners

                                        3 year old winners in the finals:

                                        Geldings:

                                        Steal the Show
                                        Paradiso
                                        Le Balnc Reynard
                                        Dream On

                                        Fillies:

                                        Money Talks
                                        Gold Digger

                                        In the 4 year old sweepstakes:
                                        Sands of Time
                                        Gold's Gone Fishin

                                        Over Fences working:

                                        Sands of Time
                                        Winter Gold
                                        Barkentine
                                        Gold's Gone Fishing

                                        Now, 3 years later, when these girls and boys are 6 and 7, it is hard to get stats on them via the USEF website - that is my problem - I do not know if they are still successful or not. The IHF should track these results! I did find results on Steal the Show! but I had to sort through many with the same name. I have gotten locked up trying to look up others.

                                        All I am saying is that if we are going to use the IHF as a stepping stone/showcase/respected exhibition of/for future show hunters, then we/they need to do a better job of tracking the results down the line of the horses judged top prospects! Only through this sort of data collection can the IHF support their value to the breeding of top "hunter prospects". This "discussion " will persist until there is a reliable connection from point A, the IHF to point B, successful hunter career.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by SilverBalls View Post
                                          I am not sure a whole course is the answer... regardless of the height. It will still require the same dynamics, and that in my opinion is alot to ask of a three year old.
                                          Ditto. I think a hunter hack type of class that was previously suggested would be the way to go. I have no problem with showing on the line, but the u/s part pushes them too far too fast IMHO.

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