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Approved?

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  • Approved?

    If, say. under the documentation for an Oldenberg sire it says 'Approved for Hanoverian'. If you breed a Hanoverian mare to that Oldenberg sire, will the foal be 'approved' for Oldenberg or Hanoverian?

  • #2
    Well if the Hanoverian mare was approved for breeding with the Hanoverian Society and the stallion was too ( even though it was Oldenburg) then you can get Hanoverian papers for the foal. Generally speaking. As far as registering the foal as an Oldenburg - that would depend on the status of the mare and stallion in the Oldenburg registry. Foals are registered. Breeding stock is assessed and approved.

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      If a mare is registered, but not assessed or approved, would her foal be eligible for anything?

      Comment


      • #4
        Generally speaking, a foal by a stallion that is "approved" by a given registry and out of a mare that is "approved" by that same registry can be "registered" (receive papers) with that registry. Being "registered" (i.e., having registrations papers) is typically insufficient for purposes of being "approved" for breeding. "Registered" and "approved" are two separate concepts in warmblood breeding.

        So a foal out of a mare that is "registered" but not "approved" by a given registry would not be able to receive registrations papers. However, with some registries, if the stallion is "approved" with that registry, a foal by such a stallion and out of an unapproved mare could receive a "Certificate of Pedigree" -- these are not registrations papers and most registries will not permit such foals to ever enter the breeding program, but often they will allow that foal to participate in the registry's awards program.
        "I always remember you as quite the desk chair contrarian." - APirateLooksAtForty

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #5
          So, is it then basically imperative that the mare has been approved for breeding? Is there any difference in having gone to assessment and not passed or in having not gone at all?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by ivym View Post
            So, is it then basically imperative that the mare has been approved for breeding? Is there any difference in having gone to assessment and not passed or in having not gone at all?
            There are a lot of reasons why a mare should be brought to an inspection (or kuring). The best one is so that you get an extremely educated opinion on what your mare's strengths and weaknesses are. Most inspectors are friendly and personable; if you wait for a free moment they are happy to suggest solid crosses for your mare.

            There's also the simple protection a fully registered foal has. There are a lot of horses bred for whatever reason, and while it's true you don't ride papers, they do give you exact age, parentage and proof of registry. If all else is equal, the foal with the papers will be sold over the one without.

            If you are concerned that your mare won't be entered into breeding stock, why do you want to breed her?

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #7
              Nobody needs to worry. I don't even currently have a horse - I'm just seeking information.

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #8
                What about TB blood? How does that affect registration, approval, or eligibility for inspection?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by ivym View Post
                  What about TB blood? How does that affect registration, approval, or eligibility for inspection?
                  Most WB registries will inspect TBs for breeding. There are some (e.g., SWANA, KWPN and Selle Français) that will register the offspring of a Jockey Club registered TB mare and a stallion from their top book without inspecting the TB mare.

                  Hanoverian, in my mind, is one of the most difficult to present TB mares. You'd have to look up the specifics, but I believe they have to score higher than a registered Hanoverian mare.

                  Personally, I like a good sport TB mare for breeding. So I tend to use registries that favour influx of blood. Westfalen, Oldenburg Gov, and the ones I mentioned that don't require mare inspections are my prefered.

                  You can check the breed requirements of each registry to determine what they will accept and what will be required (inspection, etc) in order to enter a breeding book. Most of the websites are quite good. Also, if you're ever in doubt, the offices of the registries are very helpful if you ever need clarity on what registry options Stallion Y crossed with Mare X will offer you.

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    So, generally the TB would have to have prior authorization? But warmblood sports don't place as high of an emphasis on registration?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by ivym View Post
                      So, generally the TB would have to have prior authorization? But warmblood sports don't place as high of an emphasis on registration?
                      Again, it depends on what registry you're using. Generally, they need to go through the same process as a warmblood mare.

                      I'm not sure what you're asking in your second question. Warmblood sports as in Dressage, Jumping, etc, or warmblood sports as in a sporthorse registry (e.g., Canadian Sport Horse Association)? If the first, registry matters less than ability but most riders at the upper levels look for registered bloodlines; if the second, Sport Horse registries tend to be more concerned with providing recordings of horses that can do a particular job (dressage/jumping) then the pedigree of its parents...but each registry will have it's own rules and requirements for what they will or won't accept.

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        and then can you take any part-bred horse to an inspection? ...or, let's see, say you have a 1/2 Holsteiner 1/2 TB mare of unproven parentage, is the most you can hope for with a foal is to choose a certain sire (how prevalent are they?) from which you can get a certificate?

                        Thank you so much for your help! If I was't disabled I'd read all the rules myself. But I have to have the screen zoomed in order to read it and i have to move the mouse to see a whole line. My dexterity is not so good. In a nutshell, wading through a larger document is tedious at best.
                        Last edited by ivym; Oct. 14, 2017, 01:49 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Katona View Post

                          Most WB registries will inspect TBs for breeding. There are some (e.g., SWANA, KWPN and Selle Français) that will register the offspring of a Jockey Club registered TB mare and a stallion from their top book without inspecting the TB mare.

                          Hanoverian, in my mind, is one of the most difficult to present TB mares. You'd have to look up the specifics, but I believe they have to score higher than a registered Hanoverian mare.

                          Personally, I like a good sport TB mare for breeding. So I tend to use registries that favour influx of blood. Westfalen, Oldenburg Gov, and the ones I mentioned that don't require mare inspections are my prefered.

                          You can check the breed requirements of each registry to determine what they will accept and what will be required (inspection, etc) in order to enter a breeding book. Most of the websites are quite good. Also, if you're ever in doubt, the offices of the registries are very helpful if you ever need clarity on what registry options Stallion Y crossed with Mare X will offer you.
                          I'm curious; which registries don't require mare inspections? All of the registries you mention require mare inspection for studbook placement. All of the mentioned ones will inspection TB mares for inclusion, but I agree with the poster who said Hanoverian is the most difficult.
                          Mystic Owl Sporthorses
                          www.mysticowlsporthorses.com

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by ivym View Post
                            and then can you take any part-bred horse to an inspection? ...or, let's see, say you have a 1/2 Holsteiner 1/2 TB mare of unproven parentage, is the most you can hope for with a foal is to choose a certain sire (how prevalent are they?) from which you can get a certificate?

                            Thank you so much for your help! If I was't disabled I'd read all the rules myself. But I have to have the screen zoomed in order to read it and i have to move the mouse to see a whole line. My dexterity is not so good. In a nutshell, wading through a larger document is tedious at best.
                            A part bred of unknown parentage wouldn't be eligible for inspection in any of the European registries, ie, GOV, Hanoverian, Westphalian, etc. I would check with the registry of choice to be sure you could get a COP with such a pairing. The American Warmblood Society registers horses based on inspection instead of pedigree, so that would be an option, should you have such a situation in the future.
                            Mystic Owl Sporthorses
                            www.mysticowlsporthorses.com

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by clint View Post

                              I'm curious; which registries don't require mare inspections? All of the registries you mention require mare inspection for studbook placement. All of the mentioned ones will inspection TB mares for inclusion, but I agree with the poster who said Hanoverian is the most difficult.
                              The ones I listed don't require TB mares to be inspected to have offspring registered. I can get full KWPN papers if I breed my TB to a KWPN approved stallion, without inspecting her. As the OP is asking about registering offspring, and not approving for studbooks, that was all I was trying to explain.

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #16
                                I meant unproven (not necessarily unknown) parentage, unregistered. What makes a horse eligible for AWS inspection? And how is it that you can get KWPN papers for foals from your TB? That's what's called entered into studbook? Is that what happens after inspection?

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #17
                                  My friend has a DWB gelding that's ~10, and she's had him since weaning. He was out of a TB mare and by Flemmingh. She doesn't think she's done anything. Is he maybe even registered somehow? Not that anyone will love him less...

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by ivym View Post
                                    I meant unproven (not necessarily unknown) parentage, unregistered. What makes a horse eligible for AWS inspection? And how is it that you can get KWPN papers for foals from your TB? That's what's called entered into studbook? Is that what happens after inspection?
                                    Uproven isn't really an issue. There are stallions that go through the approval and licensing process as three year olds and then proceed to never compete. They've technically "proven" themselves via the process, but they aren't as proven as a stallion that goes on to compete for years at the highest level of sport. Nor are they as "proven" as stallions who proceed to sire multiple competitive offspring (and later successful sires and broodmares).

                                    Unregistered is the issue. I can't think of any major verband warmblood registry that will accept unregistered parents. Mostly because registration is your proof of parentage. There is DNA evidence that Foal C came from Stallion A and Mare B.

                                    I quickly reviewed the AWS rulebook, and could find nothing indicating eligibility beyond age and athletic ability. Perhaps someone more versed in that registry could be of more help.

                                    I can get papers from KWPN because TB is a "refining/improving" outcross they allow for Jockey Club registered mares. (A TB without papers is not eligible.) My TB is not entered into the studbook by doing this, but her offspring will get full papers and be entered into the foalbook. That foal can then go on to inspections and tests as an adult to be appropriately entered into the studbook and receive predicates. The full list of registration possibilities can be seen here: http://kwpn-na.org/display/files/Reg...Chart_2012.pdf

                                    Originally posted by ivym View Post
                                    My friend has a DWB gelding that's ~10, and she's had him since weaning. He was out of a TB mare and by Flemmingh. She doesn't think she's done anything. Is he maybe even registered somehow? Not that anyone will love him less...
                                    In this case, I would review her sale paperwork. If the weanling was registered, it will be in there. If he wasn't, based only on the information given, the gelding could be registered, pending DNA proof that he is by Flemmingh and the TB mare has her Jockey Club papers and DNA on file with them. It is a process to gain papers later in life, but it can be done. I don't know if I'd be terribly troubled by it with a gelding, as he'll never have offspring that need to be registered.

                                    As a sidenote, the rulebooks for the different registries are nearly always in PDF format, and can easily be resized to hundreds of times larger via reader or acrobat. There are so many different minute that the books cover better than I ever could.

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      #19
                                      Where does a COP get you in terms of breeding? If I'm looking at a mare that's 3/4 Hanoverian, is there any reason to breed specifically to a Hanoverian sire?
                                      Last edited by ivym; Oct. 15, 2017, 10:19 PM.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by ivym View Post
                                        Where does a COP get you in terms of breeding? If I'm looking at a mare that's 3/4 Hanoverian, is there any reason to breed specifically to a Hanoverian sire?
                                        Others may disagree, but to me a COP is for riders. It's a proof of age, and a bit of an understanding that someone cared enough to to track the horse in questions background.

                                        Depending on what the other 1/4th is, you may be able to get the mare approved for a pre-mare book. These books are for mares that meet requirements of the breed in type but not in pedigree, breed, or other disqualifying traits. This mare can have offspring that can work their way "up the books" so to speak. If the other 1/4th is a recognized warmblood or "acceptable cross" (e.g., TB, Arab, Anglo, etc), you may have a mare that can be approved for a mare book.

                                        What's the pedigree?

                                        Comment

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