can you talk to me about purchasing in utero?

[Jack16]

Hello, I have made the decision that my next horse will be a baby. I would really like to buy one in utero so I can have him/her from the very beginning. I'm never selling my next one so I want to be able to raise him or her as that was such a fun part with my last horses. As breeders, do you typically sell in utero? What are the typical stipulations? I really don't know of anyone who has bought in utero and the youngest I have ever had was a 9 month old and really I treated him like I would any other horse with a vetting, etc. just not as extensive as I would be an older horse obviously. Do you recommend it? Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks.

[lauriep]

The in utero sales that I know of are done under particuar circumstances. In return for taking a gamble on a complete unknown, you get the baby at a reduced price. There are contingencies written into the contract to cover the "what ifs," like birth defects, or different sex than what you wanted. Each contract is unique between the buyer and seller. Payment must be made well before the birth of the baby (actually, since it is a sale, payment should be made when the deal is cut).

How much is the risk? If you know the breeding well, and are impressed with the parents and any other offspring by either, you should be ok. What you miss is looking at a bunch of youngsters for the one that "speaks" to you. If all goes well according to the contract, you are stuck with the baby even if you don't have "that feeling" about it.

You can't get the baby until it is weaned anyway, so if you are unsure, why don't you go look at a bunch of foals already on the ground, and buy one that way? To be yours as soon as it is weaned.

Oh, and saying at this point in time that you are "never selling my next one" is, IMO, foolish. Lives change, goals change, horses don't develop as we would wish, etc. Don't box yourself in by insisting that you HAVE to keep this one just because you said you would.

[Dressage-ryder]

We have done inutero sales and it has always worked out well. The fun part of doing intuero is having someone to share the progress with. I love being able to send " Look how big she is getting " " Almost ready to foal" " Foal tonight" etc. emails and updates.


There is a bigger gamble with intuero because you don't know what you are getting but that can also work in the buyers favor. I know one filly we would have kept if she hadn't sold intuero
Try to be selective about the potential foal, find a contract that is fair to both sides and hopefully if you decided to buy inutero it will be a huge reward!

[RyuEquestrian]

Hello, I have made the decision that my next horse will be a baby. I would really like to buy one in utero so I can have him/her from the very beginning. I'm never selling my next one so I want to be able to raise him or her as that was such a fun part with my last horses. As breeders, do you typically sell in utero? What are the typical stipulations? I really don't know of anyone who has bought in utero and the youngest I have ever had was a 9 month old and really I treated him like I would any other horse with a vetting, etc. just not as extensive as I would be an older horse obviously. Do you recommend it? Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks.

We purchased several of our mares as in-utero Filly options. Feel free to PM Me and I'll be happy to discuss with you our experience with this process, the goods as well as the bads that we experienced as well as our experience with our own in-utero sales.

[misita]

I've also sold quite a few as in utero foals. The most important thing is to work out all the details up front in your contract like who pays the vet bills for the mare? The foal? inspection fees? What if the foal dies? Is unable to perform as a sporthorse?

All the little details. When do you start paying board on the foal?

I offer my in-uteros at quite a discount because when the foal hits the ground, he does belong to the owner. I take care of the mare costs and the buyer takes care of all the foals costs.

But I've also had some tricky situations come from selling in uteros. Once a foal died from septicemia at 3 weeks old. They chose another foal they loved and took instead. But they had fallen completely in love with the foal that died prior to it ever even being born. So they suffered the loss of that foal right along with me.

Buying in-utero is great. Just make sure you cover ALL the 'what-ifs' in your contract.

I really like what Dressage-Ryder said about finding a contract that is fair to both sides and the fact with the in-utero purchase, you may just end up with a foal that would otherwise 'not be for sale!'

[RyuEquestrian]

I've also sold quite a few as in utero foals. The most important thing is to work out all the details up front in your contract like who pays the vet bills for the mare? The foal? inspection fees? What if the foal dies? Is unable to perform as a sporthorse?

All the little details. When do you start paying board on the foal?

I offer my in-uteros at quite a discount because when the foal hits the ground, he does belong to the owner. I take care of the mare costs and the buyer takes care of all the foals costs.

But I've also had some tricky situations come from selling in uteros. Once a foal died from septicemia at 3 weeks old. They chose another foal they loved and took instead. But they had fallen completely in love with the foal that died prior to it ever even being born. So they suffered the loss of that foal right along with me.

Buying in-utero is great. Just make sure you cover ALL the 'what-ifs' in your contract.

Just a question, did you simply exchange the foal for another foal? or did they purchase the second foal?

[misita]

They did not purchase the 2nd foal. They had bought the in utero in good faith and my intent was for them to walk away with a healthy foal. In that situation the financial loss was on both me, the seller, and them, the buyer. They did pay for the vet bills for the ill foal before she had to be put down. But I also lost one foal that year. So really, the financial loss was split between us. But in the end, they had their healthy foal.

This is them with their replacement foal at her inspection. And now just beginning to sit on her.

Now, when selling in uteros, I always keep back one of my best mares. Just in case something like this happens. So I have something to offer the grieving buyer. Because from my experience, the buyer does get totally involved in the pregnancy.

[Kyzteke]

Just a question, did you exchange the foal for another foal? or did they purchase the second foal?

Not to hijack the thread, but this interests me as well. As a breeder, I've thought about selling certain foals inutero, but I always wonder how one handles these type of issues -- lets say the foal has leg issues, or health issues of some kind and is less than perfect (which many are) -- how does this work?

[Kyzteke]

They did not purchase the 2nd foal. They had bought the in utero in good faith and my intent was for them to walk away with a healthy foal. In that situation the financial loss was on both me, the seller, and them, the buyer. They did pay for the vet bills for the ill foal before she had to be put down. But I also lost one foal that year. So really, the financial loss was split between us. But in the end, they had their healthy foal.

Now, when selling in uteros, I always keep back one of my best mares. Just in case something like this happens. So I have something to offer the grieving buyer.

Misita -- we were apparently posting at the same time.

So what would you have done if they didn't want the other foal (wrong color/sex, etc)? And what if it's some like a leg issue, which may not be life-threatening and there is no real way to tell how it will resolve for months, if not years?

I've always wondered what would be "fair" in these cases...

[RyuEquestrian]

As someone just said to me: They'd feel good about it even though they weren't necessarily contractually obligated. I think it would seriously depend on the situation.

But, that being said, it certainly is a risk that the in-utero buyer must consider. I think an even trickier situation is, what if the legs were crooked, not necessarily horrendously to hinder future performance, but still noticeably crooked... what then? As the breeder, would you feel responsible?

[grayfox]

I sell a lot of inuteros. The buyer should purchase insurance when the foal is 24 hours old which would pay if the foal had a problem. Everybody does their contracts a little different. I think most breeders sell inuteros saying that the foal has to be healthy at birth. I think it's a great way to buy a quality baby at a good price. Also, I think some of the most popular mares have their foals sold long before they hit the ground so if you want a certain mare it may be necessary to buy inutero to get the baby you want.

[misita]

Misita -- we were apparently posting at the same time.

So what would you have done if they didn't want the other foal (wrong color/sex, etc)? And what if it's some like a leg issue, which may not be life-threatening and there is no real way to tell how it will resolve for months, if not years?

I've always wondered what would be "fair" in these cases...

When selling in-uteros, I don't base it on sex. The buyer needs to accept what they get. I don't do exchanges because the buyer really wanted a filly and got a colt. On the other hand, I don't say the baby is available only if it's this or that sex. When they buy the baby, they're buying it regardless of sex or color.

If it's a leg issue that could prevent the foal from becoming a performance horse, then I would offer to exchange the foal if that were their wish.

When selling in-uteros, I do it with the understanding that they will end up with a performance horse. So I pretty much guarantee that baby until it's weaned. They do pay the vet bills though. If something looks like it's going to be a problem, I'm talking serious problem, and not just down in the pasterns, then they can choose to replace the baby. Or to re-breed.

I have not had someone want their money back. But all these things must be spelled out specifically in your own agreement. All the tiny details are so important.

My personal goal is they walk away with a sound performance horse.

I also had a situation where one buyer wanted a filly, and another wanted a colt. Low and behold they each got the sex they didn't want. So I hooked them up together and they traded babies! This all took place before the inspections.

[Hillside H Ranch]

Misita -- we were apparently posting at the same time.

So what would you have done if they didn't want the other foal (wrong color/sex, etc)? And what if it's some like a leg issue, which may not be life-threatening and there is no real way to tell how it will resolve for months, if not years?

I've always wondered what would be "fair" in these cases...

I sell quite a few in-utero, and my contract guarantees a live, healthy foal. By healthy I mean that it passes a "well-foal" check, which also includes an IgG. I've never had an in-utero go badly *knock on wood*, but if the foal can stand and nurse and does not have a congenital deformity like a severe parrot mouth, congenital cataracts or a cleft palate then it is considered healthy. Crooked legs are something an in-utero buyer needs to be willing to risk; afterall the benefit of buying in-utero is a greatly cheaper price, but there is a trade-off of increased risk. Now if I had a contracture so severe the foal couldn't stand, or something like that, I would let the buyer decide what they wanted to do. But "crooked legs" can encompass a lot and that is one of the risks of buying in-utero vs. paying more to pick out something already on the ground.

Also, I will sometimes sell a "sex-specific" in-utero, and in those cases obviously the deposit is fully refundable if the buyer gets the "wrong sex".

[Iron Horse Farm]

I sell quite a few in-utero, and my contract guarantees a live, healthy foal. By healthy I mean that it passes a "well-foal" check, which also includes an IgG. I've never had an in-utero go badly *knock on wood*, but if the foal can stand and nurse and does not have a congenital deformity like a severe parrot mouth, congenital cataracts or a cleft palate then it is considered healthy. Crooked legs are something an in-utero buyer needs to be willing to risk; afterall the benefit of buying in-utero is a greatly cheaper price, but there is a trade-off of increased risk. Now if I had a contracture so severe the foal couldn't stand, or something like that, I would let the buyer decide what they wanted to do. But "crooked legs" can encompass a lot and that is one of the risks of buying in-utero vs. paying more to pick out something already on the ground.

Also, I will sometimes sell a "sex-specific" in-utero, and in those cases obviously the deposit is fully refundable if the buyer gets the "wrong sex".

THis. We have done several and only had one go really bad. Our contract says that the foal is yours after passing the "well-foal check" including Igg (I pay for). COntract says foal must be insured at 24 hours. Long story short - foal was hurt, buyer approved several thousand at a university, then disappeared off the face of the earth. Turns out foal was not insured and I had to pay the vet bill when all was said and done. Foal did survive and recover, but I was not in a position to spend what was spent and may not have if it had been solely mine.

We have had several where everyone was very happy. I sold a Sandro Hit in-utero and promised my hubby that if the buyer got my black-keeper-filly that I would be sobbing in the driveway when she left. Turns out she got a premium colt and everyone was happy.

[Lesley Feakins]

We have sold several en uteros and like other posters have mentioned, its important to have everything covered up front and both parties feel comfortable with the arrangement and dealing with each other.

For me personally, I ask for a small non refundable deposit up front, then at 3 weeks, I expect to be paid in full IF the customer is happy and wishes to proceed. Once the foal is paid for and transfer/registration documents are pending I strongly suggest they purchase insurance on the foal, at least for mortality. We keep the foal until weaning at no charge. Buyer paids for trimming, vaccinations, registration fees and any Vets charges after being paid in full. We take care of the igg and any and all immediate Vets charges
to that point.

Ultimately, what we and everyone else is looking for is to have happy customers, so hopefully they come back and buy another!

[Kyzteke]

I sell quite a few in-utero, and my contract guarantees a live, healthy foal. By healthy I mean that it passes a "well-foal" check, which also includes an IgG. I've never had an in-utero go badly *knock on wood*, but if the foal can stand and nurse and does not have a congenital deformity like a severe parrot mouth, congenital cataracts or a cleft palate then it is considered healthy. Crooked legs are something an in-utero buyer needs to be willing to risk; afterall the benefit of buying in-utero is a greatly cheaper price, but there is a trade-off of increased risk. Now if I had a contracture so severe the foal couldn't stand, or something like that, I would let the buyer decide what they wanted to do. But "crooked legs" can encompass a lot and that is one of the risks of buying in-utero vs. paying more to pick out something already on the ground.

Also, I will sometimes sell a "sex-specific" in-utero, and in those cases obviously the deposit is fully refundable if the buyer gets the "wrong sex".

Thanks -- great info.

And the "well-foal exam" is done at 23-36 hrs. of age?

Also, to all breeders that do inutero sales: what sort of discount do you usually offer? Let's say you figure the cost of the foal at weaning would be $12K. What would the inutero cost be?

[Kyzteke]

I sell a lot of inuteros. The buyer should purchase insurance when the foal is 24 hours old which would pay if the foal had a problem.

I've never insured a foal that young -- what happens if there is a something that MIGHT cause a problem down the line (limb deformity that MIGHT require surgery, or an undescended testicle or umbilical hernia -- that sort of thing) -- will they still be insurable?

[Hillside H Ranch]

I usually price my in-uteros a couple of thousand less than the asking price for a foal already on the ground. A lot of it depends upon which mare it is out of, if it is by a young vs proven stallion, what the siblings have done, etc.
I usually have the well foal exam done around 24 hours of age.
As far as insurance goes, it is really up to the insurance company. For most of the foals that I've sold in-utero and then the owners have insured the insurance company has sent papework to be filled out by the examining veterinarian. So it would depend upon what the vet reported on whether or not a foal would be insurable per the specific insurance company.

[grayfox]

I've never insured a foal that young -- what happens if there is a something that MIGHT cause a problem down the line (limb deformity that MIGHT require surgery, or an undescended testicle or umbilical hernia -- that sort of thing) -- will they still be insurable?

Dp you mean for the inutero purchase? My contract says the baby has to be perfect when its turned over at 24 hours. I've never had a limb deformity so I'm not sure if the baby would be insurable. The other two things I think the insurance would pick up the cost but it would be best to ask your agent. I've never seen an inutero contract that doesn't require the purchaser to insure the baby.

[Kyzteke]

I usually price my in-uteros a couple of thousand less than the asking price for a foal already on the ground.

So if the foal was worth $12K, inutero would be $9-10K?

That sort of surprises me, since you can eat up $2000 in expenses pretty easily in the first 5 months of their life.

So you don't have a certain % that you use when pricing inutero? Like, 30% less or whatever?

I'm asking both as a breeder who might consider it AND as a buyer. But as a buyer I'd be wanting a filly (future broodmare), so it really wouldn't be much of a savings to take all those risks for just a savings of $2-3K.