• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

"Color pros" -- Question about Dun coloring

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • "Color pros" -- Question about Dun coloring

    I have a one month colt and I am trying to decide what color he is. He is a GRP by FS Daily Hero who is a "golden zebra dun" out of a New Forest mare who is bay.

    Color predictor says 40+% chance bay and 40+% chance dun.

    I am beginning to think he is not bay especially now that he is losing his baby coat. He looks "yellow dun" to me except he does not have a dorsal stripe.

    Here is a link to his picture (he is shedding in the face): http://www.facebook.com/album.php?ai...50100457545710. If you look at the rest of the album there are a few other pictures at a couple days of birth.

    My questions are: 1) can the dorsal stripe come later ? 2) and if so, how long after birth do you expect to see it and what is the latest you would see it appear 3) is there a color test for dun yet ?

    TIA
    Richard, Approved Black KWPN Stallion
    Website
    and Facebook page
    Oh Kaptain Underpants SFS, Approved BRp pony stallion
    Website and Facebook page

  • #2
    The thing about foal coats is they tend to really magnify a dun's dorsal stripe, even magnify a normal countershading dorsal stripe. I don't even see a hint of one here, and I can clearly see his spine.

    He appears to be "just" bay with a heavy dose of pangare, lightening him up.

    FWIW, I looked up his sire. How has it been determined he's a dun? He does not look dun *at all*
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      My colt does not have a dorsal stripe at all -- no hint. So I have been calling him a bay. But the baby shedding out has got me stumped because he is shedding out "yellowish". I have never seen this coloring (and I have lots of bays which is my favorite color ).

      So that got me wondering if the dorsal stripe can show up later. I don't want to mis-mark his coloring when I register him.
      Richard, Approved Black KWPN Stallion
      Website
      and Facebook page
      Oh Kaptain Underpants SFS, Approved BRp pony stallion
      Website and Facebook page

      Comment


      • #4
        Having just looked at the photos of his sire http://www.throughconnection.com/FSDailyHero.html

        I am 99% sure he(stallion) is JUST as BAY and not at all a dun. I have a dun stallion and have seen a LOT of dun babies off colors red, claybank, grulla, zebra ect ect ect. A lot of breeders know basicly nothing about color and decide to name their stallion a color he is not without doing ANY color research. For some reason I have found MANY warmblood breeders who just love the idea of a dun stallion and for some reason decide their plain BAY is dun! In order to produce a dun at least one parent MUST be a dun, it does NOT skip generations. Im pretty darn sure there is NO DUN in FSDailyHero's genetics. In order for HIM to be a dun mom or dad would have had to be a dun too!

        Also there "coloring" of him is VERY misleading a horse is either Bay OR Dun there is no such thing as a "Golden Bay Zebra Dun". Dun is a DILUTE, a Dun bred to a Bay results (usually) in a "Zebra Dun" or just a "Dun" (as apposed to "red dun", 'claybank', Lobo Dun ect) Also a horse MUST have a dorsal stripe to BE a dun, it looks likes your colt does not have a dun stripe as well it appears that his sire does not have a dun stripe meaning neither of them are dun.

        Comment


        • #5
          Dun or dilute

          The first thing you need to figure out is if the mare is dun or dilute or both as the British Isles folk call both duns and dilutes dun. All colors except spotted are allowed in New Forest including dun and dilute. The foal looks like it could be buckskin not dun...definately not dun. Like in Quarter Horses perhaps it is not uncommon for a New Forest to be both dun and dilute. So has the sire and dam been color tested. It also looks like the whole color thing could be confused by black shading if that is the belly of his mother as the background. PatO

          Comment


          • #6
            Foals

            In the pictures of the sires foals there looks like a palomino in front of what seems a bay. Though I agree the sire doesn't look like a buckskin...and dun(Du) is a seperate gene it is not dilute(Cr). It is a MODIFYING gene as is dilute. They modify the base color...which in the instance of the foal in question is bay. To me it looks like your foal is possibly dilute but not dun. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dun_gene
            PatO

            Comment


            • #7
              RougeEmpire?

              I think you need to look at the colors of his offspring...SOMEONE is a dun. PatO

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #8
                Originally posted by columbus View Post
                The first thing you need to figure out is if the mare is dun or dilute or both as the British Isles folk call both duns and dilutes dun. All colors except spotted are allowed in New Forest including dun and dilute. The foal looks like it could be buckskin not dun...definately not dun. Like in Quarter Horses perhaps it is not uncommon for a New Forest to be both dun and dilute. So has the sire and dam been color tested. It also looks like the whole color thing could be confused by black shading if that is the belly of his mother as the background. PatO
                The dam of my colt is definately bay. In the picture she looks lighter than she actually is -- she has nice dapples right now

                Funny that you would mention buckskin because someone asked me the other day if he was buckskin but I don't think that there is any cream gene involved and the color calculator did not give me that as a color option. So I ruled that one out

                He probably is just bay but it is a very pretty (okay handsome) color of bay coming out
                Richard, Approved Black KWPN Stallion
                Website
                and Facebook page
                Oh Kaptain Underpants SFS, Approved BRp pony stallion
                Website and Facebook page

                Comment


                • #9
                  If you look at the veeery bottom of the sire's page it has pictures of his ancestors. it looks like his sire's dam was a palamino, (though the sire looks like he was just chestnut) hard to tell if his dam was also a palamino but it is possible, but it may mean he's a darker buckskin. Which would give your guy the possibility of being a buckskin.

                  Lots of people mix up dun and cream, and there is definately cream in the line, not sure if it made it to him, but it can be tested for.
                  For the horse color genetics junky

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I've seen that stallion up close. He's a bay with countershading....not a true dun. He does have some nice countershading but I'm pretty sure he's not a true dun factor.

                    Dun factor foals will ALWAYS have a dorsal stripe unless it's blocked by a white pattern or something. All other dun factor markings are optional but that one is not. It will be present in the foal coat. Our breed has a LOT of duns.

                    The last two foals on my site below are dun factor. Unfortunately you can't see the dorsal stripes on either one with those pics but they are there. You can get a sense of the shade. The colt seems to be shedding into a copper dun and the filly we're not sure yet. We think she's a grulla roan.

                    http://www.rbefarm.com/Rainbows_End_...s_of_2010.html

                    On this pic you can see the dorsal stripe.

                    http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z...s/IMG_7563.jpg

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Don't rule out colors

                      Unless they are tested you can easily have dilutes and duns hiding in other colors. For years they hid in Morgans...smutty buckskins can look just like smutty bays. If there is a lot of black shading in your breeds you cant tell colors unless you do genetic testing sometimes. Colors tend to clump together. In Irish Draught we have a dun line...real dun. and we have one dilute line. They are in the same horses probably because people interested in color collected them and bred them to each other. This is what has happened in QHs. Duns and dilutes are often dunskins and dunalinos. A breed like Highland Pony names their duns http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_pony
                      PatO

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Twisting View Post
                        If you look at the veeery bottom of the sire's page it has pictures of his ancestors. it looks like his sire's dam was a palamino, (though the sire looks like he was just chestnut) hard to tell if his dam was also a palamino but it is possible, but it may mean he's a darker buckskin. Which would give your guy the possibility of being a buckskin.

                        Lots of people mix up dun and cream, and there is definately cream in the line, not sure if it made it to him, but it can be tested for.
                        You know, I think I will go ahead and test him for the cream gene, the test is cheap enough. I went back and looked at the ancestor coloring and you may be right. The girl who works for me swears the colt is buckskin. All I know is that the bay coloring is very different than any plain bay I have ever had.

                        I did not breed this colt for coloring -- I just love the sire and his line. I specifically leased this mare to breed to him.
                        Richard, Approved Black KWPN Stallion
                        Website
                        and Facebook page
                        Oh Kaptain Underpants SFS, Approved BRp pony stallion
                        Website and Facebook page

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Having paid attention more to registry/breed of the stallion, he may very well be buckskin. Certain breed registries have a bad habit of referring to buckskin as dun

                          He doesn't scream buckskin, but it's entirely possible.

                          I still think the OP foal is just a light bay (at this point anyway, he might shed out darker).

                          Columbus is right about cream hiding. Morgans are notorious for this. This is a palomino. Really!
                          ______________________________
                          The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            He is shedding out lighter. I took this picture this morning (with my iphone). You can see the lighter color coming out.

                            http://www.facebook.com/album.php?ai...50100457545710

                            I am pulling tail hairs today and testing for the cream dilution and the red/black factor. Anything else I should check ?

                            I will post results when I get them back.

                            Thanks for everyone's help so far.
                            Richard, Approved Black KWPN Stallion
                            Website
                            and Facebook page
                            Oh Kaptain Underpants SFS, Approved BRp pony stallion
                            Website and Facebook page

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Columbus is right about cream hiding. Morgans are notorious for this. This is a palomino. Really!
                              Oh good lord, why do I even bother guessing. We should just be forced to color test anything that hits the ground, who knows how many are hiding :P

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                While anything is possible.......both mare and stallion look like bright bays.......chestnut body with black mane and tail.....and baby appears to be the same coloring. It would be interesting to see the results of testing.


                                I have a quarter horse that AQHA says is bay but I did testing and he is positive for dun markers. And you can see a dorsal stripe plus bars on his shoulders.

                                In this pic you can see the shoulder barring and dorsal stripe





                                Dalemma

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  irken - Yep, it can be really, really tricky sometimes!

                                  Dalemma - yep, leave it up to the AQHA (or APHA, or JC for that matter) to get a color right
                                  ______________________________
                                  The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    I saw this guy go at the 100DT and I totally believed he was dun/dilute/something. I sort of thought he had a dorsal stripe but can't see it on the pics/ video on his website. I'm pretty sure he had leg barring. Maybe it was too long ago for me to remember details correctly...but man...that boy can JUMP and I've been smitten ever since so it's nice to see an offspring photo!
                                    Andrea Clibborn-Anderson
                                    www.crestlinefarm.com
                                    Home of Pinto Dutch Warmblood Palladio

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Mane frosting is pretty typical for a buckskin. Sooty can easily put leg and wither barring. I would fully expect a horse who has leg and wither barring *due to dun* to also have face webbing, and I just don't see it on this stallion. Sooty can also go as far as darkening/strengthening the spine shading.

                                      *I* think he's buckskin with light sooty.
                                      ______________________________
                                      The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by crestline View Post
                                        I saw this guy go at the 100DT and I totally believed he was dun/dilute/something. I sort of thought he had a dorsal stripe but can't see it on the pics/ video on his website. I'm pretty sure he had leg barring. Maybe it was too long ago for me to remember details correctly...but man...that boy can JUMP and I've been smitten ever since so it's nice to see an offspring photo!
                                        This colt is really something special I am super pleased with him. His dam can really jump too

                                        I specifically bred this cross to produce a pony who could do the jumpers for my daughter who is 4'11" and 23 years old. And I was pleased to get a colt. We had been planning on going "across the pond" to purchase a pony stallion jumper but maybe we won't have to now. We'll see how he matures and if he gets to keep the "family jewels".

                                        Originally posted by JB View Post
                                        irken - Yep, it can be really, really tricky sometimes!

                                        Dalemma - yep, leave it up to the AQHA (or APHA, or JC for that matter) to get a color right
                                        Exactly why I am questioning color, I don't want to mess up the color on his registration papers. I had been planning on marking "bay".
                                        Richard, Approved Black KWPN Stallion
                                        Website
                                        and Facebook page
                                        Oh Kaptain Underpants SFS, Approved BRp pony stallion
                                        Website and Facebook page

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X