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"Color pros" -- Question about Dun coloring

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  • #41
    I have had a number of foals born with both dorsal stripes, leg barring and even one that had facial webbing as a foal. I believe some of the foal coat counter shading Im seeing has a lot to do with the Sooty Gene.

    The sire of the above mentioned ponies was born a classic Dark Seal Brown from a buckskin mother and chestnut father. There is absolutely NO dun or cream involved in any of the above. We have had many born with a dorsal stripe and leg barring over the years.
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    • #42
      Goodpony...that makes no sense to me. Now I am really confused, lol. Maybe the dams carried dun? I saw the leg barring on my filly today. Not as obvious as the dorsal stripe...but there. I hope she stays the light "washed out" color as it is so pretty!
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      • #43
        Originally posted by hluing View Post
        Goodpony...that makes no sense to me. Now I am really confused, lol. Maybe the dams carried dun? I saw the leg barring on my filly today. Not as obvious as the dorsal stripe...but there. I hope she stays the light "washed out" color as it is so pretty!
        The dun gene cannot hide -- ie. be unexpressed from generation to generation. Countershading can and does produce the illusion that a horse is dun, and non-dun foals are often born with countershading and primitive markings that may or may not fade with age. For example, one of my Holsteiners is very close in color to the OP's horse -- he also has countershading on his spine. But he is absolutely not a dun; the countershading goes along with the black and gold dapples on his barrel and haunches.

        Deuce: bay with dapples and countershading.
        Phoebe: bay dun with dorsal, stripes, and cape.

        Although I'm not a huge Wikipedia fan, they do have a good article on duns.
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        • #44
          This is FS Don't Worry. Ferienhog Stueker itself says he is fuchs. That means chestnut. There is no way in he double hockey sticks that this horse looks dun. Daily Hero's dam is Pascalina. She is listed as brown, her sire black. It is very slightly possible that her sire was smoky black and she is a very dark brownskin. If this is true, Daily Hero COULD be a buckskin, but ONLY if Pascalina is a very dark brownskin.
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          • #45
            Originally posted by Tiki View Post
            This is FS Don't Worry. Ferienhog Stueker itself says he is fuchs. That means chestnut. There is no way in he double hockey sticks that this horse looks dun.
            He may not look like the stereotypical dun, but if you watch any videos of him he has a very clear dorsal stripe. This video shows it pretty well. Here is a still from the video.
            The Sempiternal Horse

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            • #46
              It's very common for brown foals and foals who will be gray, to have pretty clear "dun" factors - strong dorsal, wither barring, face masks, etc. Also, on adults, sooty can do a good dun mimic, including wither barring, leg striping, and face masks. Some can even put on a good dorsal stripe show, clear, strong, and into the tail. But the tone is not easily mistaken

              Dun can absolutely "hide" - more than one dunalino, dunskin, and smoky grulla have not been clearly dun. But it doesn't "hide" like the red gene does in black-based horses, or like agouti does in red-based horses.
              ______________________________
              The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

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              • #47
                Originally posted by DancingFoalFarms View Post
                Countershading can and does produce the illusion that a horse is dun, and non-dun foals are often born with countershading and primitive markings that may or may not fade with age.
                Exactly! Our new little guy from this season was born black with some very cool leg baring--I took a picture but can't seem to find it. Whats interesting with his is that its not just the color of his stripes but there also seems to be some textural aspect to the hairs that makes the baring more obvious visually.
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                • #48
                  This our foal, who definitely looks dun. I'm told by someone much better at 'color coding' than me, that he is likely grulla. His face is very dark, and he has dark rings around his eyes, and it seems the dark area is getting bigger. Thoughts?

                  https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater
                  Davey Farm Sport Horses
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                  • #49
                    Originally posted by JB View Post
                    It's very common for brown foals and foals who will be gray, to have pretty clear "dun" factors - strong dorsal, wither barring, face masks, etc. Also, on adults, sooty can do a good dun mimic, including wither barring, leg striping, and face masks. Some can even put on a good dorsal stripe show, clear, strong, and into the tail. But the tone is not easily mistaken

                    Dun can absolutely "hide" - more than one dunalino, dunskin, and smoky grulla have not been clearly dun. But it doesn't "hide" like the red gene does in black-based horses, or like agouti does in red-based horses.
                    I get your point, JB, what I meant by hide, is that you you cannot have a Dd x dd = dd, and then have Dd or DD. It cannot skip generations.
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                    • #50
                      Originally posted by Meggs View Post
                      This our foal, who definitely looks dun. I'm told by someone much better at 'color coding' than me, that he is likely grulla. His face is very dark, and he has dark rings around his eyes, and it seems the dark area is getting bigger. Thoughts?

                      https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater
                      Cute foal! If it is a black with dun, then it's a grulla.
                      Looks like maybe a bay dun? JB is the resident color guru though
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                      • #51
                        Originally posted by Meggs View Post
                        This our foal, who definitely looks dun. I'm told by someone much better at 'color coding' than me, that he is likely grulla. His face is very dark, and he has dark rings around his eyes, and it seems the dark area is getting bigger. Thoughts?

                        https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater
                        yep, definitely look grulla Cute!
                        ______________________________
                        The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

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                        • #52
                          Originally posted by DancingFoalFarms View Post
                          I get your point, JB, what I meant by hide, is that you you cannot have a Dd x dd = dd, and then have Dd or DD. It cannot skip generations.
                          Yes, hence "hide" I was just clarifying that while it can't suddenly be in existence without either parent being D?, it can definitely not be apparent in one parent and be "hiding"
                          ______________________________
                          The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

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                          • #53
                            Originally posted by Tiki View Post
                            This is FS Don't Worry. Ferienhog Stueker itself says he is fuchs. That means chestnut. There is no way in he double hockey sticks that this horse looks dun. Daily Hero's dam is Pascalina. She is listed as brown, her sire black. It is very slightly possible that her sire was smoky black and she is a very dark brownskin. If this is true, Daily Hero COULD be a buckskin, but ONLY if Pascalina is a very dark brownskin.
                            Sorry - but you are just flat wrong. I know the pony, am quite close to FS team, stand in his stall and brush him every trip (3 times this year so far). yes - he is chestnut(fuchs). But there is no german equivalent word for "dun". There is the term "falbe" but that is usually reserved for buckskin horses. Colloquially they will sometimes say 'fuchs falbe' to try to indicate "red dun" but it is not a universally accepted term and not an approved color term to use on pony papers in Rheinland/Westfalia.

                            My pony - FS Djambo (yes he came directly from FS) is definately a red dun. His papers also say 'fuchs'.

                            It would be nice if you can actually accept the fact that some of us know this pony and bloodline quite intimately and are certain the dun gene runs in it. I'm not sure why you are so interested in belaboring the point.
                            If you want to pay to fly me over again and pull hair for you from FS Don't Worry and have it tested, rather than just believing those of us who are pony breeders and know this bloodline, then I have time in 2 weeks to go back again.
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                            • Original Poster

                              #54
                              Originally posted by hluing View Post
                              FS Don't Worry IS a red dun. I have an FS Don't Worry foal this year that is a bay dun. I will attach a link with pics. She is very light, almost looks like a buckskin (but can't be) and has had a very clear dorsal stripe since birth.

                              https://www.facebook.com/?ref=tn_tnm...0181679&type=3

                              I do think FS Daily Hero is likely a dun as well. However, I am not as certain about that.
                              Heather -- love your filly I know what you mean about trying to figure out the color thing on this family line. I started thinking my colt was buckskin too in the beginning but I tested him and he was negative for the cream gene. I took one of the photos of your filly and put it next to a photo of my colt at the same age. Similar coloring ??? https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=1&theater

                              This is a photo taken on my iphone of my guy's dorsal stripe: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=1&theater Probably due to countershading but .....

                              Originally posted by amzngallison View Post
                              I went and looked through all the pictures you posted on his facebook page and he's nothing but bay. I also looked at available pictures of his sire and he also doesn't look dun. You could test him but I think it would be a waste as he doesn't show any dun characteristics and dun doesn't hide. Sorry to be a downer.
                              No downer I really don't care whether he is a bay or a dun. I didn't bred for color but because I love the pedigree. I would actually prefer that he is a bay which is what I decided he was but since he started to develop this dorsal stripe and is shedding out a really yellowish bay color (kinda hard to see in the photos the true coloring) I started to second guess again.

                              Has anyone used the Dun test at UC Davis and is it accurate ? I will probably go ahead and test him just so I can prove the negative. I just don't want to test and have some probability that the test might give me a false negative. This is important to me as I am planning on keeping him as a stallion at this point and I do not want to misrepresent his color.
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                              • #55
                                The test for dun is for the markers, not the actual gene itself. That's why they really like it if you can provide detailed pictures of the parents as well. It's really pretty accurate, though not foolproof.

                                That said - again, duns don't start to develop, or lose, their dorsal stripe. It's very visible at birth, and remains visible all their lives, with the exceptions of the very light or very dark colors/shades. It's sometimes hard(er) to see it in cremellos, for example, and if a grulla is very very dark. But a bay? You're going to see it. All the time
                                ______________________________
                                The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

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                                • #56
                                  https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

                                  https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

                                  https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater
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                                  • #57
                                    Here is a picture of foal primitive markings--he's got stripes: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=1&theater

                                    This foals markings is interesting to me because it has a textural aspect. I do not expect them to stay forever but they are interesting.

                                    Sire is classic Dark Brown - blue black body/brown in the soft spots. Heterozygous Grey. I believe he is the source of the sooty effect we've seen. He has produced a black foal to date and another that appeared brown.

                                    Dam was born red bay also heterozygous grey. Neither parent carries dun or dilute/cream.
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                                    • #58
                                      FS Don't Worry is a RED DUN. In German that would be Fuchsfalbe. The word Falbe in Germany describes the Dun gene but unfortunately we also use the word Falbe for the cream on bay color, the buckskin. That is often causing confusions.
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                                      • #59
                                        Originally posted by Tiki View Post
                                        This is FS Don't Worry. Ferienhog Stueker itself says he is fuchs. That means chestnut. There is no way in he double hockey sticks that this horse looks dun.
                                        I agree.

                                        A stripe down the back is NOT indisputible evidence for dun. Countershading is truly amazing at putting stripes down backs. It can even put zebra stripes on the legs, bars on the shoulder and mask-like shading on the face.

                                        This is a purebred arabian with countershading:
                                        http://www.whitehorseproductions.com...ck_bayarab.jpg

                                        A collage of countershading traits which includes mock face masking and leg barring:
                                        http://www.brindlehorses.com/striped...e/countstr.jpg

                                        About halfway down this page is an excellent collage of countershading on foals: http://grullablue.com/colors/dun_factor_markings.htm

                                        FS Don't Worry has no obvious dun offspring. By obvious I mean SCREAMS dun - not simply "oh there's a stripe". With the number of foals he has on the ground he should have produced at least a couple of 100% unquestionable duns. I have not seen any thus far, even amongst the foal examples that have been posted on this thread.

                                        I would absolutely want to see a positive dun test on him (or on a foal by a non-dun dam) before perpetuating the claim that he is dun.
                                        We are all inclined to judge ourselves by our ideals; others, by their acts. ~Harold Nicolson

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                                        • #60
                                          Originally posted by TaliaCristianna View Post
                                          I agree.

                                          A stripe down the back is NOT indisputible evidence for dun.
                                          Show me a chestnut with a stripe like this. I think those of you who are arguing are not looking at the pictures. Not to mention arguing with people who know the horse. But carry on.
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