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RPSI & Westfalen Combine

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  • RPSI & Westfalen Combine

    http://www.eurodressage.com/equestri...rs-association

  • #2
    This was surprising to me. The Westfalen breeders in my tiny circle are really negative about RPSI. If I were breeding and a member of either registry, I'd likely try to move in another direction for a decade to avoid the fallout. As a buyer, I'd still peruse the bloodlines before making any decisions.

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      I know lots of people who are negative about RPSI. I also know lots of people whose horses got the exact same scores in RPSI as they did in other Verband groups. My personal opinion is Westfalen is trying to get more interest in North America, and RPSI is looking to gain more respect. Win-Win...if it works.

      From the Westfalen site: http://www.westfalenpferde.de/en/Bre...ingnews_US.php
      Last edited by Katona; May. 18, 2017, 03:16 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        As the owner of an RPSI (GRP) this is exciting to me as I think the RPSI header of a whole bunch of breeds is confusing to buyers. Hopefully this consolidation will give us access to Westfalen stallions and also simplify the issue of "what breed is she?"
        Originally posted by PeanutButterPony
        you can shackle your pony to a lawn chair at the show...so long as its in a conservative color.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by soloudinhere View Post
          As the owner of an RPSI (GRP) this is exciting to me as I think the RPSI header of a whole bunch of breeds is confusing to buyers. Hopefully this consolidation will give us access to Westfalen stallions and also simplify the issue of "what breed is she?"
          As another NA breeder that has used RPSI, I feel the same as above. Also agree that it could help build RPSI's image by moving towards a more recognized WB name, while helping the Westfalen registry make more use of the NA market. Hope it works out for both.
          Blacktree Farm
          Lessons, Training & Sporthorse Sales.
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          • Original Poster

            #6
            And let's be real here, Westfalen is a lot easier on native North American English speakers than Deutsches Sportpferd.

            Comment


            • #7
              I think it is a win-win for both registries. I don't think RPSI has the best image here, but Westphalen does. As a combination they have a lot to offer, and I predict they will give GOV a big headache.
              Mystic Owl Sporthorses
              www.mysticowlsporthorses.com

              Comment


              • #8
                Well to give some additionaol information:.
                RPSI is considered by a lot of breeders in Germany a bit like a second class registry.
                People with insight told me the think RPSI is surviving in Germany financially because of the US breeders (turnover is said to be bigger with US breeders than with German breeders). If now those US breeders are lost, RPSI will have big problems.
                Mr. Schalter quit his Job with RPSI in Germany and is joining Westfalen.
                A very clever move of Westfalen after the problems the had in earlier years in the US to enlarge themselves (by "taking over" RPSI breeders) and get hence more breeders in the US.
                I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC
                www.hannoveranerzuechter.de
                2017: March: Filly by Lissaro - SPS Don Frederico - SPS Prince Thatch
                May: Finnigan - Sandro Hit - SPS Rouletto

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #9
                  Originally posted by alexandra View Post
                  Well to give some additionaol information:.
                  RPSI is considered by a lot of breeders in Germany a bit like a second class registry.
                  People with insight told me the think RPSI is surviving in Germany financially because of the US breeders (turnover is said to be bigger with US breeders than with German breeders). If now those US breeders are lost, RPSI will have big problems.
                  Mr. Schalter quit his Job with RPSI in Germany and is joining Westfalen.
                  A very clever move of Westfalen after the problems the had in earlier years in the US to enlarge themselves (by "taking over" RPSI breeders) and get hence more breeders in the US.
                  RPSI isn't "losing" anyone. They are combining with Westfalen. Babies that were going to be registered as Deutsches Sportpferd, will now be registered as Westfalen. All of our RPSI Main Mare Book (aka Book 1) mares are auto-accepted, RSPI Stud Book 1 Stallions are still good for breeding. Otto is still in charge of inspections, Ann is still running the office. No one "quit" anything. Dr. Andrea Sieg has been the go to person for Westfalens in North America, and she's still part of the whole process.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I think it's great.

                    RPSI gets a lot of flack because of breeders who promote their studbook II horses as fully approved breeding horses. I've seen the ads. Just my opinion.

                    I just read an article with an interview with Harm Thormahlen (famous Holstein breeder) agreeing that German studbooks will become one German book in the future. I don't know if you agree, Alexandra? I don't know if that will happen, but as a US breeder, I think that will be fine for us here too. Since we never managed to create our own studbook that people could agree on, having all the German books plus KWPN, sBs and French, (etc.) is just confusing for our buyers. Also, a consolidated studbook means a consistent judging standard across the country--less big fish in a small pool type of thing, depending on the book.

                    Finally, I live far from most inspections. 12 hour drive for many and the "close" one (RPSI) is 5 hours. If I were sticking to bloodlines, my horses would both be registered with GOV, but I have a really hard time hauling a mare and foal 12 hours in July heat. So a registry with lots of site options is important to me.

                    DIY Journey of Remodeling the Farmette: http://weownblackacre.blogspot.com/

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      [QUOTE=Katona;n9753612]

                      RPSI isn't "losing" anyone. They are combining with Westfalen. Babies that were going to be registered as Deutsches Sportpferd, will now be registered as Westfalen. QUOTE]

                      And who gets the fees for such Westfalen registration ? RPSI ? That is rather interesting that Westfalen will put the horses into their registry and all goes to the pockets of RPSI ?
                      I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC
                      www.hannoveranerzuechter.de
                      2017: March: Filly by Lissaro - SPS Don Frederico - SPS Prince Thatch
                      May: Finnigan - Sandro Hit - SPS Rouletto

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by TrotTrotPumpkn View Post

                        I just read an article with an interview with Harm Thormahlen (famous Holstein breeder) agreeing that German studbooks will become one German book in the future. I don't know if you agree, Alexandra?
                        I am not sure. I think the circumstances may need that development. Buuut there are from my point of view too many hindering facts.
                        The existing bigger registries have an administration and each of them a board.
                        Registries are no companies that can be bought. The are mostly a very german specific kind or organisation a Verein (maybe translates to unincorporated association).
                        Means there are certain laws in Germany how these organisations are run. Any memeber has e.g. a right to check the finances (by law). A lot of decisions have to be made by approval of the members. The internal rules that the organisation gives itself (e.g. how many members of board etc.) have to be agreed by the members. A governmental department checks and approves these rules/statutes.
                        Technically the money and all assets belong to the members - like a cooperative/collective. Due to this structures I see no real incentive for the bigger registries and their boards to go together to a single big one. They would eleminate themselves and their jobs...
                        Yes, some registries will go together or have gone together but I am not sure that we will end with one big society.
                        I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC
                        www.hannoveranerzuechter.de
                        2017: March: Filly by Lissaro - SPS Don Frederico - SPS Prince Thatch
                        May: Finnigan - Sandro Hit - SPS Rouletto

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #13
                          Originally posted by alexandra View Post

                          And who gets the fees for such Westfalen registration ? RPSI ? That is rather interesting that Westfalen will put the horses into their registry and all goes to the pockets of RPSI ?
                          The Westfalen-NA is going to be the new name. If you check the website daily, you'll see that they are constantly making updates and shifting to match the European Westfalen site. I believe the final update will be to completely remove "RPSI" from the title.

                          Most European Verbands that offer reciprocity with a North American counterpart have two separate employed teams. One that is the "Parent" and one that is the North American offshoot. The money is taken in the denomination of the country headquarters is located in (e.g. I pay USD even though I'm Canadian), and the taxes and fees are passed on in the appropriate amount to the Parent organisation who will record and provide passports and COPs, with extras used to employ the locals, cover travel and mailing fees, etc.

                          This is how RPSI worked with Pferdezuchtverband Rheinland-Pfalz-Saar e.V, and now it will be how Westfalen-NA works with Westfalen Verband.

                          I honestly think the only reason they haven't done the full name change and dropped "RPSI" entirely is because of the sister books (Knabstrupper, Haflinger, etc) that are covered under the RPSI umbrella, and the current uncertainty among breeders. At this point, there's been no confirmation (that I have seen) that anything but Main Mare Book mares and their offspring are acceptable for Westfalen-NA studbooks.

                          Again, mostly speculation, but as they shifted from Zweibrücker to Deutsches Sportpferd only a couple years ago, it's not like this is unprecedented. (And if you're not keeping track: horses registered with RPSI prior to 2014, are Zweibrücker; between 2014 - 2016 are Deutsches Sportpferd; and foals and horses registered from 2017 and later are Westfalen.)

                          I'm excited to see what happens across the other Verbands. KWPN will give Westfalen approved Stallions' foals A papers, for instance. RPSI did not have that same reciprocity with KWPN.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I have always had a low opinion​ of RSPI, ISR/OLDNA, AWS, and AWR. Why? Because these registries (and perhaps others BWP?) will allow any unregistered grade mare into their lower books. Low book Stallions are also often ones who should be gelded rather than bred.

                            A few generations in, offspring of a TWH/QH/draft/Morgan mare can work their way up the books. Anything with 4 legs eventually turns into a "European Warmblood" and people who don't understand bloodlines are duped into paying too much for what is at best a WB/grade horse cross (based on my example). That isn't to say that all horses in these registries are like this, but they allow it.

                            I hope that the rules of the new registry will not allow this kind of thing to continue.
                            Show me your horse and I will tell you who you are.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Dressagelvr View Post
                              I have always had a low opinion​ of RSPI, ISR/OLDNA, AWS, and AWR. Why? Because these registries (and perhaps others BWP?) will allow any unregistered grade mare into their lower books. Low book Stallions are also often ones who should be gelded rather than bred.

                              A few generations in, offspring of a TWH/QH/draft/Morgan mare can work their way up the books. Anything with 4 legs eventually turns into a "European Warmblood" and people who don't understand bloodlines are duped into paying too much for what is at best a WB/grade horse cross (based on my example). That isn't to say that all horses in these registries are like this, but they allow it.

                              I hope that the rules of the new registry will not allow this kind of thing to continue.
                              Completely agree. People don't understand the difference between the books either. It's very misleading for the buyer.
                              DIY Journey of Remodeling the Farmette: http://weownblackacre.blogspot.com/

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                I just read an article with an interview with Harm Thormahlen (famous Holstein breeder) agreeing that German studbooks will become one German book in the future.
                                why on earth the Holsteiner Verband would agree to something like that ?

                                here in France, we had the same situation, before the creation of the Selle Français (1958). There were multiple SB, regional SB. In approx 1958, these SB were integrated into one, directed by the Haras Nationaux. In the 90s, first signs of opening followed (nearly) immediately by a total privatisation of the SB which is now controlled by the stallion holders.

                                But there is a backlash going on, many SF-breeders recent the politics of there SB and are emigrating toward others SB, be it 'Z', or AES, or SCAN or even German SB with a branch in France ...

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by alexandra View Post
                                  Well to give some additionaol information:.
                                  RPSI is considered by a lot of breeders in Germany a bit like a second class registry.
                                  People with insight told me the think RPSI is surviving in Germany financially because of the US breeders (turnover is said to be bigger with US breeders than with German breeders). If now those US breeders are lost, RPSI will have big problems.
                                  Mr. Schalter quit his Job with RPSI in Germany and is joining Westfalen.
                                  A very clever move of Westfalen after the problems the had in earlier years in the US to enlarge themselves (by "taking over" RPSI breeders) and get hence more breeders in the US.
                                  IMO the RPSI has for many years now provided US Breeders a very viable option to inspect, register and document the pedigrees of their horses, while providing superlative service in a market that needed it. They are friendly, welcoming, encouraging of education and improvement of stock, and with Mr. Schalter being the breeding director for many years, provide consistency in the grading. It is utter nonsense that they are more lenient on their gradings.
                                  Several of our 'other' options have not stepped up as the RPSI has, and I consider those other registries to be "second class' in that respect. So, quite frankly, the RPSI's status in Germany doesn't seem to be deterring breeders in the USA from using their services, so why bring that up other than to be petty.
                                  (FWIW, I have not registered with the RPSI in many years- but I do pay attention to the services we are provided, and have attended recent inspections with friends; and make no mistake, they are ALL here to take our money!)

                                  If people took the time to educate themselves about how the registration system works in Germany they would have a better understanding of how the lower books work, and it might give a bit more insight as to why all horses presented for registration are given some sort of option. If outside (lower) blood was not taken, there would be no Galoubet, Baloubet etc..
                                  Last edited by sixpoundfarm; May. 20, 2017, 12:23 PM.
                                  Tracy Geller
                                  www.sixpoundfarm.com
                                  Find me on Facebook!

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    I'm sharing this information that was written by Ann Kustar of the RPSI/Wesfalen-NA....

                                    ANSWERS TO STUDBOOK QUESTIONS AND CONFUSION:
                                    I would like to answer a few questions on studbook rules and erkend status because there seems to be a lot of confusion and misinformation online and in the breeding community:
                                    1. German-parent based organizations operating in North America, such as the RPSI, do not issue their own papers here in N.A. – the passports, breed-name, and therefore the ‘status’ of the horses registered with those passports, go back to their parent organization in Germany. For the past 20 years the parent organization for the RPSI has been the World Breeding Federation Sport Horses member studbook Pferdezuchtverband Rheinland Pfalz-Saar e.V. Now the RPSI has a new parent organization (and thus a new name – Westfalen NA) – the Westfälisches Pferdestammbuch e.V.
                                    2. On erkend status with KWPN: There is a list of studbooks enjoying erkend status with the KWPN on their website, and KWPN-NA follows this list as well. Studbook erkend status is determined by the ranking/results of horses registered with that organization in the WBFSH sport results. These results are a weighed percentage over several years, and are skewed to the larger registries. This means that a very small WBFSH studbook, such as the RPSI’s former parent organization the PRPS, did not have a chance to qualify for Erkend status, whereas a larger studbook, such as our new parent organization, the Westfalen Verband, does qualify. It is as simple as that. The organization issuing the official registration papers for the horse is the criteria upon which this is determined. On a side note, the Deutsches Sportpferd (DSP) will be erkend based on these numbers/results, as well.
                                    3. Keep in mind there are further criteria for each studbook which will determine whether a particular mare or stallion registered with an accepted studbook is allowed into another studbook’s main section, or register A. For example: type of passport/status (full pink papers or COP), inspection scores, height, and for stallions, varying performance requirements and health exams, per each studbook’s bylaws. But on the question of basic erkend status for an entire ‘breed’ – the answer is simple and based on the #’s… show results of a percentage of horses registered with that WBFSH studbook over a period of years. According to the main office of the KWPN: “In order to be added to the list of KWPN approved studbooks, a studbook must have scored at least twice in the best seventeen place in the World Breeding Federation for Sport Horses (WBFSH) studbook book ranking. Progeny of stallions approved by approved studbooks are entered in the register A and can be included in the KWPN stud book later when they meet certain criteria.”
                                    4. On Eligibility and Studbook Rules: Each studbook in Germany has their own bylaws and rules for mare/stallion books and foal papers. However, most of the German studbooks share very similar processes and bylaws (this includes the Pferdezuchtverband Rheinland Pfalz-Saar and the Westfalen Verband – thus RPSI breeders in N.A. will enjoy an easy transition, with mares and stallions automatically entering the Westfalen’s equivalent breed book). The German studbook system includes different mare and stallion books based on eligibility (by pedigree and inspection scores for mares, and for stallions also licensing, vet and performance results). This German system includes Stallion book I and II and Pre-Stallion Book; Mare Books I and II (known as Main Section, requiring 4 generations eligible pedigree for book I), and Pre-Mare Book (PMB) for mares that are not eligible for the main section but represent the warmblood type and reach a certain overall score.

                                    Resulting offspring will get either-

                                    * Full pink papers - Book I stallion and Main Section (Book I or II) mare.

                                    * COP - (a.k.a. Birth Certificate, which is a white Papered passport) – Both parents are in the breed books i.e. Book II Stallion and Book I, II or PMB mare, or Book I Stallion and PMB Mare.

                                    *HID (white papered passport with no breeding status, microchip only) – Only sire or dam in the breeding books; or a horse of unknown heritage.

                                    The German verbands also offer different books (with their own bylaws for registration) for breeds such as German Riding Ponies, Haflingers, Native Breeds, Drafts, etc. These horses get a passport from the organization listing the breed-name of their particular breed. So therefore a draft horse in Germany may get a passport from the Westfalen Verband which lists his breed as Kaltblut, a Shetland pony a passport with breed-name Shetland Pony, and a warmblood (Westfälisches Reitpferd) a passport with the breed-name listed as Westfale. These very different Equines each receive a passport from the Westfalens, but their ‘breed’ is different in each case. Each breed book has their own rules, as well as guidelines on breeding direction, standards and goals. Some breed books, such as the Haflinger, are closed (basically purebred); others, such as the WB and GRP books – have main-section books open to multiple accepted breeds, for example Hanoverian, Holsteiner, Zweibrücker, Trakehner, TB, Arabian, etc. The studbooks across Germany also have varying rules on Permanent Identification of horses being registered – this includes Microchipping and Branding. Often the different breeds, and even the different types of passport statuses within each breed, will receive a different brand as a visible identification mark (thus the ‘edelweiss’ brand for Haflingers, ‘oak leaf’ for riding ponies, or the ‘full’ vs ‘half’ brand for pink papered vs COP registered horses or ponies). Branding is becoming less common in Europe, however, with the advent of universal microchipping.

                                    Some confusion has occurred in North America due to misunderstanding of the German system of mare/stallion books, types of papers, and different breeds registered by the same organization. Misunderstanding can also occur when breeders/owners use the wrong terminology when referring to their horses. For example, it is incorrect to refer to a stallion inspected by the RPSI and recorded in Stallion Book II as ‘approved’, or to refer to a mare entered in the Pre-Mare book by the RPSI as ‘approved’ or ‘Main Mare Book’. Horses registered with a German-parent organization may have Pink Papers, or they may have a COP or HID passport; they may be a Riding Pony or Haflinger or KDR rather than a Warmblood – their pedigrees and eligibilities may vary significantly, even within one organization, depending on what kind of passport they have.

                                    It is worthy of some research to understand the meaning of a horse’s passport, brand and breeding status, and what it actually means for a North American registry to follow the full German system of horse registration and permanent identification, with all of its various levels, statuses and books.

                                    Ann Daum Kustar, Westfalen NA / RPSI

                                    More information on the mare/stallion books here: http://www.westfalen-na.com/document...Books_Info.pdf

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      I am now very confused:
                                      There has been an own organisation called RPSI in the USA ?
                                      It was a different organisation as RPSI in Germany ?
                                      And hence since it was an own organisation RPSI searches now for a new parent organisation and chooses Westfalen in Germany ?

                                      I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC
                                      www.hannoveranerzuechter.de
                                      2017: March: Filly by Lissaro - SPS Don Frederico - SPS Prince Thatch
                                      May: Finnigan - Sandro Hit - SPS Rouletto

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by alexandra View Post
                                        I am now very confused:
                                        There has been an own organisation called RPSI in the USA ?
                                        It was a different organisation as RPSI in Germany ?
                                        And hence since it was an own organisation RPSI searches now for a new parent organisation and chooses Westfalen in Germany ?
                                        No. The RPSI in North America has always been a division of RPSI in Germany. Any horse who is registered with RPSI in the US has German papers.

                                        RPSI in Germany chose to combine with Westfalen and therefore the NA office is now also the NA office of Westfalen. The German organizations have combined and thus by extension the NA office.
                                        Originally posted by PeanutButterPony
                                        you can shackle your pony to a lawn chair at the show...so long as its in a conservative color.

                                        Comment

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