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RPSI & Westfalen Combine

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  • RPSI & Westfalen Combine

    http://www.eurodressage.com/equestri...rs-association

  • #2
    This was surprising to me. The Westfalen breeders in my tiny circle are really negative about RPSI. If I were breeding and a member of either registry, I'd likely try to move in another direction for a decade to avoid the fallout. As a buyer, I'd still peruse the bloodlines before making any decisions.

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      I know lots of people who are negative about RPSI. I also know lots of people whose horses got the exact same scores in RPSI as they did in other Verband groups. My personal opinion is Westfalen is trying to get more interest in North America, and RPSI is looking to gain more respect. Win-Win...if it works.

      From the Westfalen site: http://www.westfalenpferde.de/en/Bre...ingnews_US.php
      Last edited by Katona; May. 18, 2017, 03:16 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        As the owner of an RPSI (GRP) this is exciting to me as I think the RPSI header of a whole bunch of breeds is confusing to buyers. Hopefully this consolidation will give us access to Westfalen stallions and also simplify the issue of "what breed is she?"
        Originally posted by PeanutButterPony
        you can shackle your pony to a lawn chair at the show...so long as its in a conservative color.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by soloudinhere View Post
          As the owner of an RPSI (GRP) this is exciting to me as I think the RPSI header of a whole bunch of breeds is confusing to buyers. Hopefully this consolidation will give us access to Westfalen stallions and also simplify the issue of "what breed is she?"
          As another NA breeder that has used RPSI, I feel the same as above. Also agree that it could help build RPSI's image by moving towards a more recognized WB name, while helping the Westfalen registry make more use of the NA market. Hope it works out for both.
          Blacktree Farm
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          • Original Poster

            #6
            And let's be real here, Westfalen is a lot easier on native North American English speakers than Deutsches Sportpferd.

            Comment


            • #7
              I think it is a win-win for both registries. I don't think RPSI has the best image here, but Westphalen does. As a combination they have a lot to offer, and I predict they will give GOV a big headache.
              Mystic Owl Sporthorses
              www.mysticowlsporthorses.com

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              • #8
                Well to give some additionaol information:.
                RPSI is considered by a lot of breeders in Germany a bit like a second class registry.
                People with insight told me the think RPSI is surviving in Germany financially because of the US breeders (turnover is said to be bigger with US breeders than with German breeders). If now those US breeders are lost, RPSI will have big problems.
                Mr. Schalter quit his Job with RPSI in Germany and is joining Westfalen.
                A very clever move of Westfalen after the problems the had in earlier years in the US to enlarge themselves (by "taking over" RPSI breeders) and get hence more breeders in the US.
                I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC
                www.hannoveranerzuechter.de
                2017: March: Filly by Lissaro - SPS Don Frederico - SPS Prince Thatch
                May: Finnigan - Sandro Hit - SPS Rouletto

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #9
                  Originally posted by alexandra View Post
                  Well to give some additionaol information:.
                  RPSI is considered by a lot of breeders in Germany a bit like a second class registry.
                  People with insight told me the think RPSI is surviving in Germany financially because of the US breeders (turnover is said to be bigger with US breeders than with German breeders). If now those US breeders are lost, RPSI will have big problems.
                  Mr. Schalter quit his Job with RPSI in Germany and is joining Westfalen.
                  A very clever move of Westfalen after the problems the had in earlier years in the US to enlarge themselves (by "taking over" RPSI breeders) and get hence more breeders in the US.
                  RPSI isn't "losing" anyone. They are combining with Westfalen. Babies that were going to be registered as Deutsches Sportpferd, will now be registered as Westfalen. All of our RPSI Main Mare Book (aka Book 1) mares are auto-accepted, RSPI Stud Book 1 Stallions are still good for breeding. Otto is still in charge of inspections, Ann is still running the office. No one "quit" anything. Dr. Andrea Sieg has been the go to person for Westfalens in North America, and she's still part of the whole process.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I think it's great.

                    RPSI gets a lot of flack because of breeders who promote their studbook II horses as fully approved breeding horses. I've seen the ads. Just my opinion.

                    I just read an article with an interview with Harm Thormahlen (famous Holstein breeder) agreeing that German studbooks will become one German book in the future. I don't know if you agree, Alexandra? I don't know if that will happen, but as a US breeder, I think that will be fine for us here too. Since we never managed to create our own studbook that people could agree on, having all the German books plus KWPN, sBs and French, (etc.) is just confusing for our buyers. Also, a consolidated studbook means a consistent judging standard across the country--less big fish in a small pool type of thing, depending on the book.

                    Finally, I live far from most inspections. 12 hour drive for many and the "close" one (RPSI) is 5 hours. If I were sticking to bloodlines, my horses would both be registered with GOV, but I have a really hard time hauling a mare and foal 12 hours in July heat. So a registry with lots of site options is important to me.

                    DIY Journey of Remodeling the Farmette: http://weownblackacre.blogspot.com/

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      [QUOTE=Katona;n9753612]

                      RPSI isn't "losing" anyone. They are combining with Westfalen. Babies that were going to be registered as Deutsches Sportpferd, will now be registered as Westfalen. QUOTE]

                      And who gets the fees for such Westfalen registration ? RPSI ? That is rather interesting that Westfalen will put the horses into their registry and all goes to the pockets of RPSI ?
                      I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC
                      www.hannoveranerzuechter.de
                      2017: March: Filly by Lissaro - SPS Don Frederico - SPS Prince Thatch
                      May: Finnigan - Sandro Hit - SPS Rouletto

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by TrotTrotPumpkn View Post

                        I just read an article with an interview with Harm Thormahlen (famous Holstein breeder) agreeing that German studbooks will become one German book in the future. I don't know if you agree, Alexandra?
                        I am not sure. I think the circumstances may need that development. Buuut there are from my point of view too many hindering facts.
                        The existing bigger registries have an administration and each of them a board.
                        Registries are no companies that can be bought. The are mostly a very german specific kind or organisation a Verein (maybe translates to unincorporated association).
                        Means there are certain laws in Germany how these organisations are run. Any memeber has e.g. a right to check the finances (by law). A lot of decisions have to be made by approval of the members. The internal rules that the organisation gives itself (e.g. how many members of board etc.) have to be agreed by the members. A governmental department checks and approves these rules/statutes.
                        Technically the money and all assets belong to the members - like a cooperative/collective. Due to this structures I see no real incentive for the bigger registries and their boards to go together to a single big one. They would eleminate themselves and their jobs...
                        Yes, some registries will go together or have gone together but I am not sure that we will end with one big society.
                        I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC
                        www.hannoveranerzuechter.de
                        2017: March: Filly by Lissaro - SPS Don Frederico - SPS Prince Thatch
                        May: Finnigan - Sandro Hit - SPS Rouletto

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #13
                          Originally posted by alexandra View Post

                          And who gets the fees for such Westfalen registration ? RPSI ? That is rather interesting that Westfalen will put the horses into their registry and all goes to the pockets of RPSI ?
                          The Westfalen-NA is going to be the new name. If you check the website daily, you'll see that they are constantly making updates and shifting to match the European Westfalen site. I believe the final update will be to completely remove "RPSI" from the title.

                          Most European Verbands that offer reciprocity with a North American counterpart have two separate employed teams. One that is the "Parent" and one that is the North American offshoot. The money is taken in the denomination of the country headquarters is located in (e.g. I pay USD even though I'm Canadian), and the taxes and fees are passed on in the appropriate amount to the Parent organisation who will record and provide passports and COPs, with extras used to employ the locals, cover travel and mailing fees, etc.

                          This is how RPSI worked with Pferdezuchtverband Rheinland-Pfalz-Saar e.V, and now it will be how Westfalen-NA works with Westfalen Verband.

                          I honestly think the only reason they haven't done the full name change and dropped "RPSI" entirely is because of the sister books (Knabstrupper, Haflinger, etc) that are covered under the RPSI umbrella, and the current uncertainty among breeders. At this point, there's been no confirmation (that I have seen) that anything but Main Mare Book mares and their offspring are acceptable for Westfalen-NA studbooks.

                          Again, mostly speculation, but as they shifted from Zweibrücker to Deutsches Sportpferd only a couple years ago, it's not like this is unprecedented. (And if you're not keeping track: horses registered with RPSI prior to 2014, are Zweibrücker; between 2014 - 2016 are Deutsches Sportpferd; and foals and horses registered from 2017 and later are Westfalen.)

                          I'm excited to see what happens across the other Verbands. KWPN will give Westfalen approved Stallions' foals A papers, for instance. RPSI did not have that same reciprocity with KWPN.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I have always had a low opinion​ of RSPI, ISR/OLDNA, AWS, and AWR. Why? Because these registries (and perhaps others BWP?) will allow any unregistered grade mare into their lower books. Low book Stallions are also often ones who should be gelded rather than bred.

                            A few generations in, offspring of a TWH/QH/draft/Morgan mare can work their way up the books. Anything with 4 legs eventually turns into a "European Warmblood" and people who don't understand bloodlines are duped into paying too much for what is at best a WB/grade horse cross (based on my example). That isn't to say that all horses in these registries are like this, but they allow it.

                            I hope that the rules of the new registry will not allow this kind of thing to continue.
                            Show me your horse and I will tell you who you are.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Dressagelvr View Post
                              I have always had a low opinion​ of RSPI, ISR/OLDNA, AWS, and AWR. Why? Because these registries (and perhaps others BWP?) will allow any unregistered grade mare into their lower books. Low book Stallions are also often ones who should be gelded rather than bred.

                              A few generations in, offspring of a TWH/QH/draft/Morgan mare can work their way up the books. Anything with 4 legs eventually turns into a "European Warmblood" and people who don't understand bloodlines are duped into paying too much for what is at best a WB/grade horse cross (based on my example). That isn't to say that all horses in these registries are like this, but they allow it.

                              I hope that the rules of the new registry will not allow this kind of thing to continue.
                              Completely agree. People don't understand the difference between the books either. It's very misleading for the buyer.
                              DIY Journey of Remodeling the Farmette: http://weownblackacre.blogspot.com/

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                I just read an article with an interview with Harm Thormahlen (famous Holstein breeder) agreeing that German studbooks will become one German book in the future.
                                why on earth the Holsteiner Verband would agree to something like that ?

                                here in France, we had the same situation, before the creation of the Selle Français (1958). There were multiple SB, regional SB. In approx 1958, these SB were integrated into one, directed by the Haras Nationaux. In the 90s, first signs of opening followed (nearly) immediately by a total privatisation of the SB which is now controlled by the stallion holders.

                                But there is a backlash going on, many SF-breeders recent the politics of there SB and are emigrating toward others SB, be it 'Z', or AES, or SCAN or even German SB with a branch in France ...

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by alexandra View Post
                                  Well to give some additionaol information:.
                                  RPSI is considered by a lot of breeders in Germany a bit like a second class registry.
                                  People with insight told me the think RPSI is surviving in Germany financially because of the US breeders (turnover is said to be bigger with US breeders than with German breeders). If now those US breeders are lost, RPSI will have big problems.
                                  Mr. Schalter quit his Job with RPSI in Germany and is joining Westfalen.
                                  A very clever move of Westfalen after the problems the had in earlier years in the US to enlarge themselves (by "taking over" RPSI breeders) and get hence more breeders in the US.
                                  IMO the RPSI has for many years now provided US Breeders a very viable option to inspect, register and document the pedigrees of their horses, while providing superlative service in a market that needed it. They are friendly, welcoming, encouraging of education and improvement of stock, and with Mr. Schalter being the breeding director for many years, provide consistency in the grading. It is utter nonsense that they are more lenient on their gradings.
                                  Several of our 'other' options have not stepped up as the RPSI has, and I consider those other registries to be "second class' in that respect. So, quite frankly, the RPSI's status in Germany doesn't seem to be deterring breeders in the USA from using their services, so why bring that up other than to be petty.
                                  (FWIW, I have not registered with the RPSI in many years- but I do pay attention to the services we are provided, and have attended recent inspections with friends; and make no mistake, they are ALL here to take our money!)

                                  If people took the time to educate themselves about how the registration system works in Germany they would have a better understanding of how the lower books work, and it might give a bit more insight as to why all horses presented for registration are given some sort of option. If outside (lower) blood was not taken, there would be no Galoubet, Baloubet etc..
                                  Last edited by sixpoundfarm; May. 20, 2017, 12:23 PM.
                                  Tracy Geller
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