Stallion Spotlight

Total Hope-11-18-09-3662

Real Estate Spotlight

DJI_0011-HDR
  • Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 5/9/18)
See more
See less

BEWARE of Purchasing In Utero & Three Wishes Farms

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • BEWARE of Purchasing In Utero & Three Wishes Farms

    I purchased a Kannan x Indoctro colt out of the mare Undercover aka Krocket (Indoctro x Calvados) from Three Wishes Farm in Camarillo, CA in 2015. Attached are photos of his legs from a few days after birth to a few months old. Please take a look at photos of his legs and feet and come to your own conclusions. When I expressed concerns about the colt's club feet, I was promptly blocked on Facebook.

    To all potential buyers, I STRONGLY suggest you do not purchase a foal in utero having purchased two myself. What is deemed "healthy" can vary from vet to breeder to buyer. If you insist on purchasing in utero, please have an INDEPENDENT vet perform a vet examination of the foal BEFORE sending payment. Again if the foal is healthy and free from genetic and congenital defects, then there is no issue. I would ask breeders, have you had a foal you sold born with defects? If so, how did you handle the issue or how would you handle it? Have those specifics detailed out in the contract. I would put details as to what exactly deems "healthy." I might consider organic tortilla chips healthy, whereas someone else might deem only kale healthy. Healthy is a very vague term. Please be aware BUYER BEWARE!!!!!!

    A reputable breeder stands behind what they produce and I suggest all potential buyers seek out breeders that will do so. The greatest testament to a breeder's integrity is what they do or don't do when they produce a foal with congenital and genetic defects....

  • #2
    Personally, I would never buy or sell in utero for the very reason that it is a huge gamble, no matter how impressive the pedigree. Yes, you can get a better price, but that is because you are taking most of the risks that would normally fall to the breeder.

    Healthy does not equal perfect or even marginally talented.

    Many perfectly healthy foals are born with angular limb deformities. Most resolve with minimal intervention, but almost all are very treatable in the first few months. Some foals look great at birth and develop problems as they grow, also usually easily corrected.

    I don't know anything about this breeder, but I see nothing in your photos that would be considered their fault. Have you ever owned a foal before? This one appears to have been windswept behind at birth and the vet who did the foal exam should have educated you on how to monitor its progress and given you treatment options. If you had your baby evaluated by an expert and followed all of their recommendations, I would expect marked improvement by now.

    Do you have current photos? What exactly do you expect the breeder to do for you?

    I'm sorry you are disappointed in your foal. If you are uncomfortable with the risks associated with buying youngsters, a three year old will give you a much better idea of what you can expect. Even then, there is no guarantee it will ever see a show ring.

    Comment


    • #3
      most in-utero foals are also offered at a reduced price which is what makes them attractive to buyers. However its not without at least some risk. I have done in-utero sales and do not accept payment until after the foal is deemed healthy and free from defect. I personally would rather deal with this sort of issue myself and offer an option to replace the foal either from a different mare or from a repeat breeding.
      "You can look at a horse and know what he/she seems to be; you can study the pedigree and know what the horse ought to be; but only the offspring can tell you what horse really is..."
      Redbud Ranch

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by tuckawayfarm View Post
        Healthy does not equal perfect or even marginally talented.

        Many perfectly healthy foals are born with angular limb deformities. Most resolve with minimal intervention, but almost all are very treatable in the first few months. Some foals look great at birth and develop problems as they grow, also usually easily corrected.

        I don't know anything about this breeder, but I see nothing in your photos that would be considered their fault. Have you ever owned a foal before? This one appears to have been windswept behind at birth and the vet who did the foal exam should have educated you on how to monitor its progress and given you treatment options. If you had your baby evaluated by an expert and followed all of their recommendations, I would expect marked improvement by now.

        Do you have current photos? What exactly do you expect the breeder to do for you?

        I'm sorry you are disappointed in your foal. If you are uncomfortable with the risks associated with buying youngsters, a three year old will give you a much better idea of what you can expect. Even then, there is no guarantee it will ever see a show ring.
        Agree with these statements! And, there are always three sides to every story. Yours, theirs and the truth.

        You are correct that each person will have a different definition of healthy, and to most vets a foal that is bright with a good IgG, nursing well, with good vitals and no major defects 24 hours IS HEALTHY. As stated, many limb deformities are self correcting, and the ones that are not should treated appropriately.

        These are living creatures that have faults and imperfections, and most inutero purchases do not come with a guarantee for perfection.

        Sorry you are unhappy with your horse, perhaps you should consider selling it to someone that will be OK with his faults.

        Comment


        • #5
          OP, wow that does not look good. The older pictures actually seem worse to me. What has your vet advised? I would hope the breeder would step up and give you some options.

          Comment


          • #6
            What specifically did you ask that got you blocked? Do you still own this foal? What has the breeder done to correct the defects? What steps have you taken to correct these defects?

            I find it crazy that people are blaming you for being concerned.
            http://weanieeventer.blogspot.com/

            Comment


            • #7
              I don't think anyone is blaming her for being concerned, I think they are blaming her for her ridiculous expectations. She should not be buying in utero, that much I agree with. She really should take the breeder's name down less she gets sued. I reported it to the mods for editing
              McDowell Racing Stables

              Home Away From Home

              Comment


              • #8
                Specifically, how are her expectations ridiculous?

                I found this vet report which appears to be from the breeder's vet

                "flexural deformity of both front feet noted. Classification of the club feet is difficult as a normal classification of a club foot measures the angle of the dorsal hoof walk angle (DHWA) against the opposing (supposedly normal) hoof wall. In the colt's case, both feet are slightly upright (neither is totally normal). Subjectively, I would classify the right front as a grade 2 club foot (5-8 degrees steeper than desired) and the left front as a grad 1 club foot (3-5 degrees steeper than desired)."

                An above poster blames the OP for not doing something about the foal's legs. If the foal is still in the care of the breeder, who's responsibility does it fall to?
                http://weanieeventer.blogspot.com/

                Comment


                • #9
                  Responsibility for treatment/ vet costs should have been specified in the contract, but I would have expected the buyer to be responsible. Typically the angular limb deformities aren't congenital and correct on their own. Club feet can be inherited, but it's hard to know whether that was the case here (or whether the mare owner knew, if it was)-- often they can be corrected with early corrective trimming. Generally all of this would fall under the assumed risk of buying a horse sight unseen, with no vetting possible by either party-- which is basically what an in utero sale is.

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    I actually think buying in utero is more risky than breeding yourself (having done both). With buying in utero, you are relying on the care of the other breeder and their representations of their mares (accurate or not). When I have bred my own mares, I am able to control care of the foal from day one.

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      Originally posted by tuckawayfarm View Post
                      What exactly do you expect the breeder to do for you?

                      I'm sorry you are disappointed in your foal. If you are uncomfortable with the risks associated with buying youngsters, a three year old will give you a much better idea of what you can expect. Even then, there is no guarantee it will ever see a show ring.
                      Hi Tuckaway Farm - my biggest issue is that I made no demands and I was blocked. I simply expressed in general the risks of buying in utero to a mutual friend and told my experience without naming names. Instead of at least reaching out to me to see why I was dissatisfied, I was simply blocked on Facebook from her personal page and farm page.

                      I did send an email to express my concerns and I was told "You may want to speak to your veterinarian and your lawyer before sending me any further demands."

                      Mutual friends of ours reached out to her to try to mediate and she is not interested in doing so or opening up communication.

                      I don't feel like I am doing anything wrong by posting photos and stating where the horse came from. I admit I was naive to think to trust a breeder's integrity as to what "healthy" meant. My point here is to warn others about the risk because if you speak to breeders who sell in utero they will tell you there is no risk as there is a "healthy foal guarantee." If a buyer is comfortable with the fact it is basically a stand and nurse guarantee, then they should proceed with the contract. I am simply sharing my experience to better educate other buyers.

                      Personally, I don't want to buy horses from people that block me and don't even try to say an I am sorry that it turned out this way.



                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Laurierace View Post
                        I don't think anyone is blaming her for being concerned, I think they are blaming her for her ridiculous expectations. She should not be buying in utero, that much I agree with. She really should take the breeder's name down less she gets sued. I reported it to the mods for editing
                        Hi Laurie -

                        I reviewed the rules before writing the post. I am not making any claims and assertions I cannot support. I am simply posting the photos and saying where the foal came from and feel free to have your own opinions.

                        My goal is to advise other potential buyers of the risks that I was admittedly naive of and pointing them out. I am not what you consider my "ridiculous expectations." I didn't post any expectations except to warn other of potential risks.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          In keeping with being as professional as possible at all times and in maintaining a stellar reputation, I strive never to publicly respond to or address accusations that belong in private, and not on social media or public forums. However, after numerous recent attacks and the escalation of cyberbullying, I believe a response to be warranted. I will not reveal private information regarding the other party and/or confidential vet records, although this information would paint a very different picture than the OP paints, as that is not my place as a professional who routinely enters into confidential communication and transactions with clients. However, I will point out the following:
                          1. The foal the OP refers to was purchased in March of 2015.
                          2. In October of 2016, after the foal had been out of the care of Three Wishes Farm since the spring, I was sent a demand email seeking the return of the purchase price of the foal plus expenses. The OP did not offer to return the foal; she only demanded money.
                          3. Not once while the foal was in the care of Three Wishes Farm did the OP demand, request, or even inquire about a return of the foal, exchange of the foal for another, or any other possible amicable arrangement. Mrs. Jones did not once verbally or in writing make any demand or request towards the foal she purchased until well over a year after her purchase and well after the foal had left the care of Three Wishes Farm.
                          4. The foal in question was also a KWPN-NA First Premium foal and won the title of Top Jumper Foal at a large KWPN-NA Keuring in September of 2015.
                          5. During the duration of the time period the foal was in my care, Mrs. Jones was directing all veterinary and care decisions, which were followed out meticulously. At all times communication was open and immediate.
                          6. For six months, I did not hear any direct communication regarding the status of the foal or his condition. We chatted amicably about non-related topics.
                          7. The OP and I had no communication regarding the current condition of the foal when she was blocked from my Facebook (a year and a half after the purchase of the foal). She had not reached out to me regarding the foal in any way. My action was actually done to protect another client who was also being attacked by her malicious gossip in a very public forum on a topic completely unrelated to her own purchase/transactions.
                          www.threewishesfarm.com
                          https://www.facebook.com/ThreeWishesFarm
                          Expecting 2017 foals by Vagabond de la Pomme, Cornet Obolensky, Zirocco Blue, Catoki and Christian.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Print this out for your lawyer RanchoAdobo, sorry your are going through this. Hope the now two year old is in good hands.
                            McDowell Racing Stables

                            Home Away From Home

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #15
                              For some context, I was in the hospital for two months and then my twins were in the hospital for three months last year. I posted in a Warmbloods Breeders Group my advice against purchasing in utero. At which time a mutual friend sent me a message and asking why I felt so strongly against in utero sales. I told her in general terms. Then obviously she figured out the foal had come from Three Wishes Farm. At which point, Annelise blocked me without reach out ONCE to see why I was dissatisfied with the transaction (obviously her friend shared what I had told her).

                              I shared my experience with a few US breeder friends in late summer and were appalled and they were the ones who encouraged me to reach out to for a refund or a trade as they felt like a reputable and responsible breeder should make efforts to work with a buyer when a foal that they bred has such hereditary defects.

                              Ms Kannow is entitled to her opinion and interpretations. A responsible and reputable breeder would work with a buyer in such a scenario. I hope simply to warn others before they consider an in utero purchase as my experience has been so disappointing
                              Last edited by caballogurl; Mar. 12, 2017, 04:21 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                (Post #1)

                                Originally posted by caballogurl View Post
                                I purchased a Kannan x Indoctro colt out of the mare Undercover aka Krocket (Indoctro x Calvados) from Three Wishes Farm in Camarillo, CA in 2015. Attached are photos of his legs from a few days after birth to a few months old. Please take a look at photos of his legs and feet and come to your own conclusions. When I expressed concerns about the colt's club feet, I was promptly blocked on Facebook.

                                To all potential buyers, I STRONGLY suggest you do not purchase a foal in utero having purchased two myself. What is deemed "healthy" can vary from vet to breeder to buyer. If you insist on purchasing in utero, please have an INDEPENDENT vet perform a vet examination of the foal BEFORE sending payment. Again if the foal is healthy and free from genetic and congenital defects, then there is no issue. I would ask breeders, have you had a foal you sold born with defects? If so, how did you handle the issue or how would you handle it? Have those specifics detailed out in the contract. I would put details as to what exactly deems "healthy." I might consider organic tortilla chips healthy, whereas someone else might deem only kale healthy. Healthy is a very vague term. Please be aware BUYER BEWARE!!!!!!

                                A reputable breeder stands behind what they produce and I suggest all potential buyers seek out breeders that will do so. The greatest testament to a breeder's integrity is what they do or don't do when they produce a foal with congenital and genetic defects....


                                (Post #15)

                                For some context, I was in the hospital for two months and then my twins were in the hospital for three months last year. I posted in a Warmbloods Breeders Group my advising against purchasing in utero in general terms. At which time a mutual friend pmed me and asked why I felt so strongly. I told her in general terms my experience. Then obviously she figured out the horse had come from Three Wishes Farm. At which point, Annelise blocked me without reach out ONCE to see why I was dissatisfied with the transaction (as obviously her friend shared what I had told her). Mind you I had not made ONE demand upon her.

                                Then I shared my experience with a few US breeder friends in late summer and were appalled and they were the one who encouraged me to reach out to Annelise for a refund or a trade, as they felt like a breeder should have taken back a foal with such hereditary defects. So I sent her an email to which I posted her response above.

                                IMHO inspections in the US are a joke and the fact is inspectors missed his club foot due to deep footing (I know I was there). The inspectors did note that he was behind at the knee which had to due with the club foot.

                                My goal in this post is not to say you should NEVER buy in utero or NEVER buy a foal from Three Wishes Farm. My point is to share the risks and share my experience and to know that "healthy" does not free from congenital and hereditary defects. Please go in with your EYES WIDE OPEN and be aware of what you are getting into. Like my post said come to your own conclusions and proceed as you wish, just be aware of the risks and know who you are doing business with.
                                For posterity, should any party need it.
                                "When I look back on my life, the times I have been stingy or unappreciative haunt me. I don't regret one instance of generosity." --PeteyPie

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  OK OP, so why didn't you indicate you were concerned with the club feet while the foal was still in the breeder's care?

                                  Breeder, why did you block OP when you found out she was unhappy well after the fact without trying to reach out once to see what you could do?
                                  http://weanieeventer.blogspot.com/

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by RanchoAdobe View Post
                                    In keeping with being as professional as possible at all times and in maintaining a stellar reputation, I strive never to publicly respond to or address accusations that belong in private, and not on social media or public forums. However, after numerous recent attacks and the escalation of cyberbullying, I believe a response to be warranted. I will not reveal private information regarding the other party and/or confidential vet records, although this information would paint a very different picture than the OP paints, as that is not my place as a professional who routinely enters into confidential communication and transactions with clients. However, I will point out the following:
                                    1. The foal the OP refers to was purchased in March of 2015.
                                    2. In October of 2016, after the foal had been out of the care of Three Wishes Farm since the spring, I was sent a demand email seeking the return of the purchase price of the foal plus expenses. The OP did not offer to return the foal; she only demanded money.
                                    3. Not once while the foal was in the care of Three Wishes Farm did the OP demand, request, or even inquire about a return of the foal, exchange of the foal for another, or any other possible amicable arrangement. Mrs. Jones did not once verbally or in writing make any demand or request towards the foal she purchased until well over a year after her purchase and well after the foal had left the care of Three Wishes Farm.
                                    4. The foal in question was also a KWPN-NA First Premium foal and won the title of Top Jumper Foal at a large KWPN-NA Keuring in September of 2015.
                                    5. During the duration of the time period the foal was in my care, Mrs. Jones was directing all veterinary and care decisions, which were followed out meticulously. At all times communication was open and immediate.
                                    6. For six months, I did not hear any direct communication regarding the status of the foal or his condition. We chatted amicably about non-related topics.
                                    7. The OP and I had no communication regarding the current condition of the foal when she was blocked from my Facebook (a year and a half after the purchase of the foal). She had not reached out to me regarding the foal in any way. My action was actually done to protect another client who was also being attacked by her malicious gossip in a very public forum on a topic completely unrelated to her own purchase/transactions.
                                    http://weanieeventer.blogspot.com/

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      EnjoyTheRide, where did you ever find that vet report? Was that from an inspection? Or do you have super-sleuthing powers?
                                      "When I look back on my life, the times I have been stingy or unappreciative haunt me. I don't regret one instance of generosity." --PeteyPie

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        #20
                                        The point of the post is to warn of the dangers of purchasing and selling in utero. But here is the medical record:

                                        Here is the full medical record:
                                        Last edited by Moderator 1; Mar. 13, 2017, 04:03 PM. Reason: remove personal cell phone number

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X