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Pinto breeders, need help again!

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  • Pinto breeders, need help again!

    I'm in search of the following:

    Tobiano parent with "normal" face markings, ie star, stripe, snip, etc, crossed with the same type of parent, producing an Overo - frame, sabino, splash, doesn't matter. I'm not interested in the Tovero offspring, just Overo.

    Got any?

    I'm trying to "prove" that the face white on an otherwise obviously Tobiano-marked horse is from Sabino.
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

  • #2
    Why does "regular" face or leg white have to be sabino?

    In answer to your question, I've never seen or heard of it happening unless there is some form of overo hiding in the background and tobiano is really tovero. Hindsight usually identifies the tovero characteristics pretty quickly.

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      That's my point - a horse that is ONLY Tobiano will have a solid head. If there is white on the head, it's from some form of Overo, making the horse a Tovero in reality. I didn't mention leg white because almost all Tobis have 4 whites, occasionally 3 but mostly 4. This would hide any Sabino white there.
      ______________________________
      The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

      Comment


      • #4
        You've misunderstood me. Regular face white - star, stripe, blaze does not constitute any form of overo.

        Most tobianos have "regular" face white. For that matter, most horses have some form of regular face white. It's not frame, splash, sabino or rabicano or any other name for "colour" somebody comes up with. It's just face white.

        Comment


        • #5
          My head.

          This makes me dizzy - JB, you think too much!!!
          I gotta do-over and am doin it my way!!!

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #6
            Originally posted by Overo View Post
            You've misunderstood me. Regular face white - star, stripe, blaze does not constitute any form of overo.
            Yes, it does - Sabino. Sabino is a form of Overo, at least how it's currently classified. Most people up on color genetics consider ALL face white to be a form of Overo.

            Most tobianos have "regular" face white.
            If they are ONLY Tobi, they have no face white. If they have face white, they also have some form of Overo.

            For that matter, most horses have some form of regular face white.
            Not really. There are more horse with solid heads than not, in any given population (Paints not withstanding )

            Originally posted by Silly Mommy View Post
            My head.
            This makes me dizzy - JB, you think too much!!!
            LOL! Should I spin you the other way to un-dizzy you?
            ______________________________
            The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

            Comment


            • #7
              Sabino is not overo...totally different genes. No idea why people continue to group them together.

              Comment


              • #8
                Splain please:

                http://wolfdenfarm.org/sitebuilderco...g.w300h413.jpg

                http://members.tripod.com/sabrawolf_...g.w300h352.jpg

                http://members.tripod.com/sabrawolf_...g.w560h414.jpg
                I gotta do-over and am doin it my way!!!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Silly Mommy View Post
                  Splain please:
                  The blaze on the foal is much too big to be just ordinary markings. It definitely looks sabino. The one labeled Panda is absolutely a tobiano/sabino, and could be frame as well -- has that one been tested for anything?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Dazednconfused View Post
                    No idea why people continue to group them together.
                    Probably just a matter of old terminology sticking around. It doesn't exactly help that both the Paint and Pinto registries still put sabino, splash, and frame all together into one category - "Overo". They need to get with the times, but nobody really thinks it will happen any time soon. Heck, now we know there's definitely more than one kind of sabino gene - who knows what else is waiting to be discovered. You'd have to really be paying attention to keep up with the latest news, and in all honesty, most people don't really care that much.

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      As I said, Sabino is still classified as one of the Overo patterns. Whether that is technically true doesn't matter to me for this purpose

                      Silly Mommy's beautiful little girl is the type I'm looking at as one parent - Tobiano + Sabino. Sympatico is the same -Tobi +Sabino. He also seems to have something going on that causes the regular production of interesting facial markings, beyond a normal star/strip/snip. He often throws fact white that goes off center, often with markings that look like the paint brush slipped in the way down, much like my toothbrush slips sometimes and smears toothpaste across my cheek
                      ______________________________
                      The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by JB View Post

                        There are more horse with solid heads than not, in any given population (Paints not withstanding )



                        REALLY? I would never have thought that. Out of 18 horses in this barn right now, 17 have some face white, and only two are related. (The single non-white face is the mother of a small-star face) And just for fun, I did the starting order from the harrisburg GP: 23 of 33 have some face white. And no more than three are related (2 heartbreakers, 3 darcos, and 2 jus de pommes)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Silly Mommy View Post
                          Splain please:
                          It's thought by some that ALL markings are caused by a Sabino complex gene. It's a complex because even though they have identified one gene, not all classic sabinos have it. I think it's usually certain breeds that lack that one but still have sabino characteristics?

                          "Overo" to me means frame overo, the other patterns generally lumped in should not be called overo.

                          I think it is rare to find Frame without Sabino as well, since frame overos should have dark legs, while most paints do not.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            You mean -

                            Like my Overo filly that has two solid legs, and two stockings?

                            http://http://www.wolfdenfarm.org/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/tundragvba.jpg

                            and her face is interesting as well-

                            http://http://www.wolfdenfarm.org/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/tundgvba.jpg
                            I gotta do-over and am doin it my way!!!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              OK, I am getting less dizzy -

                              has that one been tested for anything?
                              Nope - she is by State of the Art, out of a 3/4 TB. 1/4 DWB mare - who has strong Sabino on the TB side.

                              The Overo filly has an Overo mom, and a TB dad (who has strong Sabino on his dad's part). The Overo mom was sired by an outcrop QH however, and she displays strong robanico traits as well.

                              You guys dizzy yet?

                              I wouldn't consider myself a pinto breeder, I just went through a "spotted baby" phase.
                              I gotta do-over and am doin it my way!!!

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Silly Mommy View Post
                                You mean -

                                Like my Overo filly that has two solid legs, and two stockings?

                                http://http://www.wolfdenfarm.org/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/tundragvba.jpg

                                and her face is interesting as well-

                                http://http://www.wolfdenfarm.org/si...s/tundgvba.jpg
                                Theoretically...though I think large white on the face is considered a characteristice of frame as well. Who knows for sure, nothing has been found to "prove" the relationship.

                                Fun fact, horses are statistically more likely to have white on hind legs, and white is also more common on the *IIRC* left side. Based on pure statistics, though. Chestnuts have lots of white more often than bays which have white more often than blacks.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  So can someone tell me what this face marking says about my Freedom Z colt?
                                  Positive Step Farm

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    And what about my blue eyed Sympatico filly? What genes is he supposed to have?
                                    Positive Step Farm

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      MUST....HAVE.....SPOTTED.....PONY!!!!

                                      What beautiful equines you all have!
                                      I realize that I'm generalizing here, but as is often the case when I generalize, I don't care. ~ Dave Barry

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        yes.. i agree. pure tobiano has solid face .and also..the leg markings tend to be mucg straighter, less pointy.
                                        Here is my new toby foal
                                        http://www.vimeo.com/375583
                                        www.australiancolouredperformancehorses.com.au

                                        Comment

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