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twins born and doing well...

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  • twins born and doing well...

    amazing story and picture: http://www.hippologi.com/NewsArchiveengl.htm
    http://hippologi.com

    http://muensterland-pferde.de

  • #2
    It seems gob smacking to me that folks aren't using decent diagnostic scanning technology nowadays rather than running this sort of ridiculous risk.

    Comment


    • #3
      I must say - good looking mare and foals! They look like they are enjoying life.
      Sunny Days Hanoverians
      http://www.sunnydayshanoverians.com

      Comment


      • #4
        Thomas, I don't think it's so much the technology as the user of such equipment.

        My TB mare had twins after being ultrasounded twice (by the same vet).
        Randee Beckman ~Otteridge Farm, LLC (http://on.fb.me/1iJEqvR)~ Marketing Manager - The Clothes Horse & Jennifer Oliver Equine Insurance Specialist

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Thomas_1 View Post
          It seems gob smacking to me that folks aren't using decent diagnostic scanning technology nowadays rather than running this sort of ridiculous risk.
          Somtimes even the most experienced repro vets with the best diagnostic scanning technology can miss twins.
          Fox Haven Farm, Inc.
          Home of 2002 JC Registered stallion Artrageous

          Artrageous has his own Facebook page!

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          • #6
            Lovely! So wonderful that everyone is doing great!

            Comment


            • #7
              I agree with the above posts--I know someone who had a repro expert do 3 ultrasounds and missed a twin. Luckily, the mare was ok but she had a huge stillborn colt, and a very small, sick, weak live filly. The filly lived but needed a lot of supportive care.
              Last edited by Callaway; May. 9, 2010, 08:07 AM. Reason: .
              Kim
              'Like' my facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Calla...946873?sk=wall

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Thomas_1 View Post
                It seems gob smacking to me that folks aren't using decent diagnostic scanning technology nowadays rather than running this sort of ridiculous risk.
                As others have noted, it's not the diagnostic equipment but the technician running the equipment. One has to be aware of the fact that most veterinarians that come out of university, unless they have done a rotation through equine reproduction, have had their arms in less than 10 mares. It's tough for veterinarians to get that skill! It's pretty much acknowledged that it takes at least 100 guided palpations before one is considered competent at that skill. And yeah...that's not just here in the good ol' USA - it's the case in England, as well. Add to that, it's dangerous work, especially if one doesn't have stocks available. Even with stocks (one of your well known vets over there in the UK, Thomas, was just kicked in the abdomen OVER the back of a set of stocks) the risks can be significant.

                I agree that it is "gob smacking" if a mare owner chooses not to have the mare scanned at all. But, many that "do" have multiple scans done can end up in the same boat. Additionally, if the mare has lots of cysts, it can be difficult to determine which is a pregnancy and which is a cyst. Although when a "cyst" continues to grow and develops a heartbeat, that's usually a pretty good indication that it's not a cyst. We make a huge effort to map cysts and will do repeated scans past 21 days to watch for changes in order to identify whether or not we are indeed looking at a pregnancy or a cyst.

                Hope that helps!
                Equine-Reproduction.com Now offering one on one customized training!
                Leg-Up Equestrian Assistance Program, Inc. A 501(c)(3) non-profit charity

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                • #9
                  Trust me I do know about stud farms and getting mares in foal etc etc etc and I also understand entirely what needs to be done to ensure you're not risking a mare and it's offspring by being "surprised by twins".

                  So much so that I don't find twin foals cute or good in any way at all.

                  So maybe I should have said "using a decent vet who knows how to use the technology they cart about"

                  Having said that I believe the OP's blog mentions that scanning wasn't actually properly used at all though.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    My vet has done 2 checks, will do a 3rd, to do her best to make sure there are not twins. She has had a couple of cases where the embryos were stacked, and since her u/s equipment is only 2D, she cannot necessarily see if there is one hiding behind another.

                    The UK is not necessarily superior to the US in terms of vet care, farrier care, grass management, horse management, pretty much everything else that you like to infer, imply and outright state.
                    ______________________________
                    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Thomas_1 View Post
                      It seems gob smacking to me that folks aren't using decent diagnostic scanning technology nowadays rather than running this sort of ridiculous risk.
                      We had the same scenario as VirginiaBred happen to one of our Mare Owners in 2008. Mare was scanned multiple times...big warmblood mare bred to our Welsh Pony stallions and was overdue and popped out a set of healthy twins. They were called "kissing twins" (if I remember the term correctly), in which one embryo hides behind the other, making it look like just one embryo on the ultrasound. The twins have been shown on our Welsh Pony circuit with much success.
                      Attached Files
                      www.DaventryEquestrian.com
                      Home of Oldenburg, Westphalian & RPSI approved pony stallion Goldhills Brandysnap
                      Also home to Daventry Equine Appraisals & Equine Expert Witness www.EquineAppraisers.com

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Thomas_1 View Post
                        It seems gob smacking to me that folks aren't using decent diagnostic scanning technology nowadays rather than running this sort of ridiculous risk.
                        trust me, even decent diagnostic scanning technology can fail.
                        the mare was properly ultrasounded but never showed a second progeny.
                        no ridicolous risk was run consciously.
                        in fact, the birth of the two went so easily, noone expected a second foal after the bay one was there and when the mare came down a couple of minutes later everybody was expecting the placenta - instead came a brief "flush" and with it the second boy.
                        sometimes even unplanned ridicolous risk turns out to become a story worthwhile.

                        with respect to the decent vet you've mentioned in your second post:
                        that man is a true specialist. if you knew him you would have chosen your words less offensive.
                        and no, the blog NOWHERE mentions that scanning wasn't actually properly used at all. the risks i mentioned in my blog refer to the first couple of days in the life of the second born since usually the first couple of days are the most risky.

                        "So much so that I don't find twin foals cute or good in any way at all."
                        in my very personal vocabulary you will never even find expressions like "cute" refering to any given foal. as this is not how i descibe a horse (may it be so young) at all.
                        this is a story of success of all the (human) parties involved who helped to nurse&raise the second one the first couple of days - and i guess it deserves respect.
                        http://hippologi.com

                        http://muensterland-pferde.de

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Was there not a Swedish Dressage Champion Mare that died due to twins? Bet they checked a couple of times.

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                          • #14
                            I think they're darn cute and glad to hear the three of them are doing well!

                            Sometimes twins happen!

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #15
                              just found a full picture portfolio of them, a friend from the village loves to come by with his camera at foaling season: http://www.grasser-fotografie.de/hof-alte-post.html
                              pull the cursor further to the right, there are 21 images in that album - enjoy!
                              http://hippologi.com

                              http://muensterland-pferde.de

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by JB View Post
                                The UK is not necessarily superior to the US in terms of vet care, farrier care, grass management, horse management, pretty much everything else that you like to infer, imply and outright state.
                                that's clearly something you've got inside your little head and not something I said.

                                Probably situated right next to the great chip on your shoulder!

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Congratulations! They are beautiful - Great photos
                                  Holland Brook Sporthorses
                                  Facebook

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                                  • #18
                                    Congratulations, #2 and #6 are priceless.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Could the vet not do an internal check to see if the mare had twins at say, 60 to 90 days and pinch off one if done properly? If an ultra sound is not that accurate, I would also be asking for an internal check...just my .02.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by SmokenMirrors View Post
                                        Could the vet not do an internal check to see if the mare had twins at say, 60 to 90 days and pinch off one if done properly? If an ultra sound is not that accurate, I would also be asking for an internal check...just my .02.
                                        No - A twin needs to be pinched off at around day 16.

                                        People give this woman a break. She had the mare scanned - they missed it, she now has a healthy mare and 2 healthy foals. It happens.
                                        Holland Brook Sporthorses
                                        Facebook

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