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Moral/Ethical considerations in stallion ownership?

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  • Moral/Ethical considerations in stallion ownership?

    It's my strongly held belief that I have ethical obligations to the horses I own, and the horses I produce. To me it's a moral imperative that I give them the best possible chance to live a healthy, productive life. For the ones I have bred, the decisions I made - good or bad - are the reason they exist. I owe them that.

    This includes scrupulous attention to the feeding program, the hay they eat, vaccinations, dental health, proper socialization, good groundwork, and (should I have them that long) professional training under saddle. For fillies it means MPT and inspection - because of the residual value they would have as a MSB or Elite hanoverian mare should they be injured in sport. I should also say I am not so woo-woo that I have a problem euthanizing a foal or young horse that will not be able to live a useful or pain-free life due to injury, illness, or defect.

    I will take back any horse I have bred - to live out it's days - and receive a dignified end when a decline in their quality of life dictates euthanasia.

    To a certain extent, I think this also carries over into stallion ownership. But to what degree? I have my own views, but I'm interested in what others think.
    "No matter how cynical I get its just not enough to keep up." Lily Tomlin

  • #2
    Kate, can you clarify specifically what your query relates to? Are talking about keeping stallions their entire life, or taking on back you sold? Or are you inquiring whether people think a stallion owner has some responsibility for the offspring resulting from semen sold to outside mares? Or something else? TIA
    Judy
    Sylvan Farm~Breeding for Performance
    Ramzes SF, approved GOV and Belgian http://sylvanfarm.com
    USEF National ID and Horse Recording Task Force; USHJA Jumper Breeding Ad Hoc Committee

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      Recently, there was a thread from someone who was unable to keep the mare they owned that was in foal to my stallion. The responsibility I felt for that mare was crushing.

      I was shocked by this visceral reaction ("If I take the money that was gong to rehab the run-in shed then I could..." you get the picture) - and for the first moment since he was sold - I was glad I was no longer a stallion owner, and he was no longer a stallion. Because I can't intervene every time something like that happens. THen I started to think - well, after time I guess a stallion owner becomes shell-shocked or inured. Which made me consider just how much I would never want to be that detached.

      I called a few trusted friends who have stood sporthorse stallions f or a long, long time - for a reality check. One said she had fortunately never had to intervene in that kind of situation. THe other proceeded to tell me of several offspring by her stallion she had "aquired' over the years. So, apparently I'm not alone in this view.

      "Ethical business practice" does not have to be an oxymoron. But where is the line, or lines? A Kentucky TB stallion manager would say that line stops the moment the foal stands and nurses. Sort of a "baby daddy" situation. I think it extends farther than that - but how much farther? I am not my brothers keeper, but I am part of the horse world, and with that community(or being part of any community) isn't there some aspect of responsibility?. And wouldn't that responsibility start with the horses I had a roll in producing?
      "No matter how cynical I get its just not enough to keep up." Lily Tomlin

      Comment


      • #4
        I wish there were more like you out there, ahf.

        Comment


        • #5
          We are in this situation right now and are taking in a mare who is in foal to one of our stallions that the owner can not keep even though we are reducing our own herd.

          I don't know that it is limited to the horses that you have a role in producing. I guess it just boils down to if someone is a good person or not in that they will do what they can within their means. I wouldn't expect someone to do something for another outside of what they are financially or physically able to do. As a farm owner, it would make no sense to risk the well being of the animals you are tasked with if you are stretched too thin yourself. The economy is tough on everyone. We all know that there is no wealth to be made in horse breeding. I think we should all look out for each other and I do believe that what comes around goes around. If someone is in need, most breeders that I know will try to step up and do what they can to help even if it is just something small.

          Comment


          • #6
            AHF I can see where you are coming from. I feel the same way about the offspring of our mares and any horses I aquire over the years for whatever reason. We are all they have and I think alot of people fail to realize how important it is to provide youngsters with the right start . Many understand the care aspect of it but many do not seem to budget for the training part when they breed their mares.

            I see it all the time here, an 8 year old gelding that hasn't been started yet because the breeder didn't think that far ahead and or didn't plan for the training costs. It is unfortunate because that breeder significantly reduces that horse's value and marketability. Many think they can do it themselves but what ends up happening in many cases is the breeder is not able to do a good training job and the effect is the same as the 8 yr old with no training. I strongly feel that it is the breeders responsibility to give their youngsters the best start possible in more ways than just care...and for them to realize the importance of correct , age appropriate training when it comes to setting their horses up to end up in good places.

            I had always wondered about stallion ownership and especially about how a SO deals with mares that are less then complimentary. I doubt many stallion owners care, but I know I would! In a way it is unfair that some mare owners get so much flack for breeding their subpar mare and yet you never hear anything about stallion owners that willingly take the money of these very mare owners for this kind of mare. The result is the same...so why is it is only the mare owner that is behaving unethically so to speak?

            Interesting topic.
            www.svhanoverians.com

            "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.

            Comment


            • #7
              In this respect, I am glad that I am a small breeder, that until now, has done only LC.

              In all of my sales contracts, I specify that I will take back, at ANY time, any horse I sell.

              But I would also do all in my power to help a foal of my stallion... I can see with really high producing stallions that would not be possible.
              InnisFailte Pinto Sporthorses & Coloured Cobs
              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

              Bits are like cats, what's one more? (Petstorejunkie)

              Comment


              • #8
                A friend of mine took in some 5 youngsters over the winter that were sired by her stallion. They are now 2 - 5 y/o, and hadn't had much done with them over the years - lived outside in a herd and were handled only for worming, vax, farrier. Most of them would barely lead and none had had any kind of under saddle training - no tack, no lunging or long-lining, nothing.

                They are all sweet, sweet horses - as is the sire - but their future didn't look great as the breeder was in a situation where she needed to "clean house", and unstarted, unhandled horses were going to be very hard to sell (even though they all had quite respectable pedigrees). I think there was a concern they might have ended up dumped at an auction, so my friend decided to take them in and get them started and try to sell them.

                These youngsters have now spent the past several months learning how to live in stalls and be led to and from turn-out, learning to be groomed and handled, etc.. The older ones are now wearing tack and learning to lunge and several have been sat on a few times. My friend believe they will make very nice ammy horses, and one of them may do the FEI 4y/o classes this year. Their futures are looking much brighter now.

                Comment


                • #9
                  It's a very tough call and I think each person will deal with it differently.

                  On the one hand, we are constantly bombarded with the message that property rights trump all other rights - that no one has the right to tell us what to be able to do with our property - extending from Building Permits to wearing a seat belt. Gubmint interference etc. My mare or my stallion, I'll breed to whom I damn well please.

                  And then there are breeders who are part of the Welcome Home program, where one breeder so memorably wrote 'Just load 'em up and send 'em back home. No questions asked.'

                  It's easier if you are just a mare owner with a few mares or a breed a specific breed, say Welsh, as opposed to QH or TB breeders, as rehoming is easier.

                  But a stallion owner with a stallion to prove can't afford to be picky early on in his breeding career. You need foals on the ground to see what works and what doesn't. Can you afford to be picky later on? I would hope so, but people take offense easily, and one annoyed mare owner can poison the well fairly easily these days.

                  You just do what you can do.
                  www.juniperridgeranch.us
                  Visit us on Facebook!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    As a former stallion owner I can tell you that the only moral and/or ethical considerations I felt bound by were

                    1. to produce and ship viable semen;
                    2. to ship in a timely fashion;
                    3. to be available for consultation with mare owners before and during the breeding season;
                    4. to issue all necessary paperwork on time.

                    Mare owners are the ones that make the stallion/breeding decisions and, therefore, have a moral and ethical obligation to the resulting foal in my opinion. Would I try to help out if one of them got into financial or other trouble? Maybe ..... but it would not be out of a sense of obligation.

                    And yes, I'm still glad that I'm no longer a stallion owner in this country.
                    Siegi Belz
                    www.stalleuropa.com
                    2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
                    Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      When you put in your contract, or otherwise offer, to take back a foal/horse you bred, does that mean you will refund the money paid? I'm curious, because it is something of a dilemma, as many of these warmblood offspring sell as foals/young stock for substantial sums.
                      Mystic Owl Sporthorses
                      www.mysticowlsporthorses.com

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by clint View Post
                        When you put in your contract, or otherwise offer, to take back a foal/horse you bred, does that mean you will refund the money paid? I'm curious, because it is something of a dilemma, as many of these warmblood offspring sell as foals/young stock for substantial sums.
                        I wouldn't offer to refund the money. It is one thing if a breeder (or buyer of a foal you bred) decides to sell, and you (the stallion owner or original breeder) wants to buy it back. But if someone has fallen on hard times and can't take care of the horse and needs to place it, you are doing them a huge favor in taking the horse back and providing for it. You should not have to pay for or refund any money for the horse, as the circumstances are not your fault. I have always offered to take back horses I have sold. Fortunately, I only had to do it once. I am just a small breeder, but just my opinion fwiw.
                        Holland Brook Sporthorses
                        Facebook

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I'm with siegi b. on what I view as the obligations of the SO. The SO didn't decide to breed the mare and add to the horse population!

                          If you are willing to take a horse you bred back, because the horse has an issue, doesn't work for the owner, or the owner has fallen on bad times then you should not be expected to pay money for it too. You are doing them a favor. If they want $ they can sell it on the open market. Unless, of course, you specifically contracted to do otherwise (i.e. pay money) at the original sale or want to out of the kindness of your heart.

                          I'm so tired of irresponsible breeding. I looked through the local paper yesterday at the hundreds of horses for sale, most $200-$1200 (trying to find a riding project for the summer--not that I need one), and wanted to cry at the animals I saw. I think the norm is if it has a uterus breed it, when it should be the opposite.
                          DIY Journey of Remodeling the Farmette: http://weownblackacre.blogspot.com/

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Responsible stallion ownership

                            I find it interesting that stallion owners are suggesting that it's the mare owners responsiblity to ensure a future for any foal they produce. It seems to me that it took two to create the foal and both should be responsible for the offspring. People talk about crappy foals being produced - again it wasn't just the mare owner that made the decision to breed their mare - some stallion owner somewhere also made the same decision. If it truly is only the mare owner's responsiblity to ensure a life long home for a foal it we carry that to human's then men should have no responsiblity for the children they produce? It takes two horses to make a foal and both the stallion and the mare owner have a responsiblity to ensure that 1) the mare is worth breeding in the first place and 2) that the foal will be taken care of forever. Just my opinion.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Not saying I disagree, but for arguments sake. If you are going to make the comparison, then it would be with the woman who paid to be artificially inseminated. The sperm donor has no responsibility to the children who are produced from his sperm.

                              Originally posted by Corbyville283 View Post
                              If it truly is only the mare owner's responsiblity to ensure a life long home for a foal it we carry that to human's then men should have no responsiblity for the children they produce?
                              Legally, the stallion owner has no responsibility, but again, going back to my post, we all have a moral responsibility to do our part. Not just stallion owners, but everyone who chooses to be a part of the equine industry.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                This is a complicated topic, with alot of gray areas. I don't know if it's fair/reasonable to expect stallion owners to feel obligated to take back offspring of their stallion, but on the flip side, I think some stallion owners are too indiscriminate about breeding their stallion to any uterus that pays a stud fee, even if they know the results will be a low quality foal with a bleak future. And even then, it's still not as black-and-white as that, because sometimes the people with a low quality mare are determined to breed her no matter what, and then you have to wonder if you've just contributed to the creation of an even lower quality foal by refusing access to your own stallion and forcing them to settle on a lower quality stallion instead. Sort of a damned-if-you-do damned-if-you-don't situation.

                                I've had my good intentions backfire at least once, where I carefully and thoughtfully explained why I didn't want to allow a particular mare to be bred to my stallion (in my opinion that mare should not have been bred to ANY stallion), only to learn later that the owner had bred the mare anyhow, and to a lesser stallion. This left me doing a lot of second guessing -- wondering if I'd done the right thing as a stallion owner -- because at least if I'd let her breed to my stallion, 1/2 of the equation would have been nicer...

                                I've now taken the approach where (if the mare owner is interested) I'll happily take the time to shed a little light on the breed, and the registration guidelines, and which horses/breeds are a good idea for crossbreeding, and which ones are not (and why), and to carefully explain the registration options, so that the mare owner isn't going into it blindly. This way if a mare owner has an XXX mare and still very much wants to breed her to my stallion, knowing the registration options will be limited (because of the mare) and knowing the horse's value may be lower than the average Friesian Sporthorse (because of the mare), I'm a little more comfortable with that because at least everyone involved is able to make an informed decision. Most seem to appreciate this, especially since I am involved with a breed which is plagued by alot of misinformation and misconceptions.
                                River Oaks Farm - home of the Elite Book Friesian Sporthorse Grand Prix dressage stallion Lexington - sire of four consecutive FSA National Inspection Champions. Endorsing the FSA.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by showjumpers66 View Post
                                  I don't know that it is limited to the horses that you have a role in producing. I guess it just boils down to if someone is a good person or not in that they will do what they can within their means. I wouldn't expect someone to do something for another outside of what they are financially or physically able to do. As a farm owner, it would make no sense to risk the well being of the animals you are tasked with if you are stretched too thin yourself. The economy is tough on everyone. We all know that there is no wealth to be made in horse breeding. I think we should all look out for each other and I do believe that what comes around goes around. If someone is in need, most breeders that I know will try to step up and do what they can to help even if it is just something small.
                                  Great post showjumpers!

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Corbyville283 View Post
                                    I find it interesting that stallion owners are suggesting that it's the mare owners responsiblity to ensure a future for any foal they produce. It seems to me that it took two to create the foal and both should be responsible for the offspring. People talk about crappy foals being produced - again it wasn't just the mare owner that made the decision to breed their mare - some stallion owner somewhere also made the same decision. If it truly is only the mare owner's responsiblity to ensure a life long home for a foal it we carry that to human's then men should have no responsiblity for the children they produce? It takes two horses to make a foal and both the stallion and the mare owner have a responsiblity to ensure that 1) the mare is worth breeding in the first place and 2) that the foal will be taken care of forever. Just my opinion.

                                    You can't be serious?

                                    A mare owner decides to breed her mare and contacts the stallion owner/semen broker. Who decides if the mare is "worth" breeding? Even if the stallion owner doesn't "like" the mare - who says (s)he is right? Also, I'd like to see the stallion owner/semen broker that asks the mare owner for financial information in order to ensure the potential foal's well-being....

                                    With frozen semen from Europe you don't even know half the time who the stallion owner is... so who would you contact for this "responsibility issue"? And would you expect Hans Meier from Landsberg, Germany to understand your requirements for "foal support"?

                                    Let's be real!
                                    Siegi Belz
                                    www.stalleuropa.com
                                    2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
                                    Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Im 100% with siegi b on this subject ...

                                      And honestly - there are some mares that were bred to my stallion now and before I owned him that were definately "questionable" and would not have even placed in any line class let alone win it nor could I have ever seen them in any manner of any performance career either. Several were clunky and unrefined with coarse heads and truly looked like they should have been pulling a plow

                                      Seeing the foals as yearlings and now as 3 and 4 year olds - I am totally and completely gobsmacked. They arent just *okay* - they are downright beautiful and athletic and drool worthy

                                      So - how and when do you decide that a mare isnt broodmare material and isnt worthy of being bred to your stallion? Why would you (or should you) feel guilty about taking money from a Mare Owner when you see that a VERY nice foal is possible out of a mare that isnt stellar (or even that nice) herself?

                                      I dont believe ethics or morals have anything to do with this decision - its a business, I need to make money and no one has said that an athlete needs to be beautiful either. Heck - my Galoubet mare had a head like a bull moose on her but it sure didnt prevent her from jumping around course after course and winning for her owner and the heavy, clunky, unrefined full Percheron mare produced a filly that is drop dead gorgeous by my stallion

                                      So - how do you look into the crystal ball and know when to say "yay" or "nay"???
                                      www.TrueColoursFarm.com
                                      www.truecoloursproducts.com

                                      True Colours Farm on Facebook

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        I agree with siegi on this one. I think SOs also cover their bases by breeding to approved mares (of applicable breeding) only. Although any old yokel can get their hands on an approved mare, it at least heightens the chance of the foal being a) of quality, and b) registerable. Without those two ingredients, it becomes nearly impossible to market a young horse.

                                        Stallion owners absolutely can choose who they breed to, and most owners of quality stallions *do*.
                                        Here today, gone tomorrow...

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