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Our Colt is in Practical Horseman's Conformation Clinic with Julie Winkel!

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  • Our Colt is in Practical Horseman's Conformation Clinic with Julie Winkel!

    Julie Winkel placed our Trakehner/QH colt Tiberon (Feron by Peron x Skipa Chevy Nova) 2nd against a full Trak filly and a TB/Paint colt. The other two were pictured at 5mos. and "Tibo" was pictured at 2.5mos.

    Julie's negatives were that he has a short neck, a possible parrotmouth, slightly toed out on the left fore, and slightly tied-in behind the knee with slightly uprioght pasterns.

    However, her summary was that he "is a good strong colt who should grow up to be very useful". Her positives were that has a good shoulder length, a long sloping scapula, correct front end angles which allow for full range of motion, equal length in forearm/cannon (she says OK at this age, forearm should grow to be longer eventually), strong balanced hindquarter, hind leg is directly beneath, and shows good substance of bone.

    The top image is the picture she judged: http://timberridgebreeding.tripod.co...target=tlx_new
    Here is his most recent picture, at 2 years old: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pi...f5&id=19801671
    In motion: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pi...f5&id=19801671

    You guys want to critique the older version of him? Any comments?
    CLIPclop Bodyclipping by Morgan
    Serving North GA with high quality clips.
    --> Just Press Start // '99 Oldenburg
    --> Always The Optimist (reg. Simply Stylin) // '02 Thoroughbred

  • #2
    This is why I don't like Julie Winkell's critiques We had a go'round about her critique of another COTHer's horse 1-2 years ago.

    he's not tied in, he's no more "upright" than most foals his age, and I see a "tight" mouth, not anything that makes me think overbite. I don't see a short neck, I see one appropriate for his age. HOW he's holding his neck makes it appear short in relation to his body. But put him in that stretchy hunter-y pose and it would look miles longer.

    i don't see how she could judge anything about the straightness of his legs, viewed from the front, from a picture where grass is hiding most of his feet and he's clearly not squared up behind.

    The things she has as positives I agree with.

    His 2yo picture shows him growing up VERY nicely I still see none of the things she listed as negative, and all the things she listed as positive. He's a smidge goose-rumped, always will be, but I don't see it impeding physical performance at all.
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

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    • #3
      How fun, I bred and own the full Trak filly that was in that lineup

      This is the picture I submitted of her: http://pets.webshots.com/photo/25348...00789832gIKEbM

      And her pedigree is http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/silent+debut2

      I'd been wondering if someone on CotH would know who your colt was, and here I didn't even have to ask. Neat!
      "In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn’t merely train him to be semi-human. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming part dog."
      -Edward Hoagland

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      • #4
        Wow, small world! 2 out of three what are the odds? Will the third also appear?... Nice horses you two - Congrats!

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #5
          Wayside - how cool! Tibo's older half-sister Feuervogel is by Feuertanzer! http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pi...ee&id=19801671 I can't seem to find the conformation shot of her.
          CLIPclop Bodyclipping by Morgan
          Serving North GA with high quality clips.
          --> Just Press Start // '99 Oldenburg
          --> Always The Optimist (reg. Simply Stylin) // '02 Thoroughbred

          Comment


          • #6
            I try to follow the conformation clinic and find I am looking at aspects that differ from Julie's. I don't particularly agree with her conclusions. I continue to follow in the hope that I will learn something.
            www.forwardfarms.com.
            Follow us on Facebook:
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            • #7
              Cool! We had a colt that was in a 2007 issue as a yearling (he placed first too, yay), it's neat to see them in there!!

              It's so hard to draw conclusions particularly about the legs when they are so young. Toed in or toed out can fix itself very easily with maturity. <shrug> But it's cool he is in a magazine, that's what I say!

              Love the filly too, that is so neat you guys are both on here!
              Signature Sporthorses
              www.signaturesporthorses.com

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              • #8
                Have to agree with JB on this.... Not sure what Julie's qualifications are but don't understand some of her comments on the colt at all.

                As a baby he looks to be well-muscled with a neck that comes well out of the shoulder and chest. Good head-neck connection, short back and very sloping croup. Overall a very pleasing colt with the exception of the shoulder angle that is quite steep.

                As a 2-year old he has still maintained his good neck position and very nice head/neck connection. He also still has a very sloping croup and the shoulder angle remains steep. Yes, the neck could be a tad longer but I like the way it comes out of the shoulder and chest.

                I hope you never worried about his "parrot mouth".....
                Siegi Belz
                www.stalleuropa.com
                2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
                Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.

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                • #9
                  I have found that I tend to place them in the same order that she does (without peeking, I swear) but for completely different reasons than what she states.

                  As one example, I tend to disregard heads as I don't consider that important (other than what is inside the head ).

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Here is the other thread on a similar situation
                    http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=211227&
                    ______________________________
                    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

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                    • #11
                      Julie Winkel is an idiot in regards to judging conformation. I would take what she says with a grain of salt, to say the least.
                      www.svhanoverians.com

                      "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Mozart View Post
                        I have found that I tend to place them in the same order that she does (without peeking, I swear) but for completely different reasons than what she states.

                        As one example, I tend to disregard heads as I don't consider that important (other than what is inside the head ).
                        I do the same thing. I try to pick the line up without peeking. Most of the time I agree with her first place for various reasons. The odds of her and I picking the next two placings the same are very slight.
                        I don't agree with every reason she gives but I don't think she's wrong either. There's always a slight variance in other people's opinions.
                        It's also very difficult to pick from photos.
                        You know, everybody thinks we found
                        this broken-down horse and fixed him,
                        but we didn't. He fixed us. Every one of us.

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                        • Original Poster

                          #13
                          I don't necessarily think she is wrong in her opinions, after all -- she is judging from a single photo of a horse. As I read her entire commentary, I was confused at the ending. I looked up and asked the person in the room with me "Wait, is this good or bad? I guess it's good because of the last sentence." I feel as though she worded it so that the negatives were "could-be problems" not "ARE problems". It's learning experience for others, so I feel like she's pointing out how they could possibly be hints at conformation flaws, or just circumstance.

                          For his parrot mouth, I'm not to concerned. He's a mouthy baby and purses his lips a lot/does funky things with them. I think we caught him in one of those moments.
                          For toeing out on the left fore, I seem to recall difficulty in getting him to stand in proper form, but it's definitely something for us to go back to, reevaluate, and keep an eye on.
                          I was not surprised by her comments that he has upright pasterns - he is half-QH and that's a conformation trait of the breed. Tied-in below the knee is age appropriate. She mentions that in moderation, these things are fine - hence the "could-be problems", not "ARE problems".
                          And as a baby, yes, I thought he looked like he had a short neck. But I figured he was shortbacked, so what the heck. Both have grown proportionately, thank goodness.

                          And I was surprised she liked his hiney. I think it would be nice if it were a little rounder and less slopey - it will be interesting to see if some ridden work will amp it up some.

                          I just thought it was fun to participate, open my eyes a little, and possibly open them more through the eyes of COTH!

                          Beauty is in the eye of the beholder .. we all zone in on different things.
                          CLIPclop Bodyclipping by Morgan
                          Serving North GA with high quality clips.
                          --> Just Press Start // '99 Oldenburg
                          --> Always The Optimist (reg. Simply Stylin) // '02 Thoroughbred

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Donella View Post
                            Julie Winkel is an idiot in regards to judging conformation. I would take what she says with a grain of salt, to say the least.
                            Don't hold back Donella, tell us what you really think!

                            FWIW, I had another look at the article last night. Julie Winkel is a hunter breeding judge, maybe that makes a difference in what she looks for. Dunno.

                            OP, I also would not have said that he had a short neck, his head was tilted to the right so that makes the neck look shorter and thicker.

                            Judging babies is a tricky business anyway. I had a colt get the comment "short neck" at his inspection and I thought "really? you should have seen what I brought last year " Colt's neck looked just average to me. It has grown into a nice elegant neck. Needn't get any longer, in fact, no longer please!

                            The filly that I personally thought was short necked (who did not get a short neck comment at her inspection) is now only slightly short necked. Definitely not a hunter neck, but totally appropriate for dressage, which is her intended sport.

                            I guess that is both the fun and terrifying part of babies...hard to say what you have until they are grown up!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Mozart View Post
                              FWIW, I had another look at the article last night. Julie Winkel is a hunter breeding judge, maybe that makes a difference in what she looks for. Dunno.
                              No difference. Conformation is conformation. Short necks are short necks. Sickle hocks are sickle hocks. The difference only lies in what is desirable/ok/acceptable/undesirable based on the discipline.
                              ______________________________
                              The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by JB View Post
                                No difference. Conformation is conformation. Short necks are short necks. Sickle hocks are sickle hocks. The difference only lies in what is desirable/ok/acceptable/undesirable based on the discipline.
                                Yes....but what is considered a short neck in hunter land is not necessarily considered a short neck in dressage land, IME.

                                Are we splitting hairs JB?

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  LOL, maybe

                                  I think a short Hunter neck still would be a short Dressage neck, but the difference is the Dressage discipline is better suited to dealing with a shorter neck, whereas the jumping horse - Hunter or Jumper - uses the neck length as leverage.

                                  "Short" is relative to the body length.
                                  ______________________________
                                  The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

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