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Difference between showing on the line - Hunter Breeding and dressage in hand???

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  • Difference between showing on the line - Hunter Breeding and dressage in hand???

    Okay - OM has twisted my arm, and I am going to bring the Faux Finish filly to Devon in September to show at DAD, ably assisted by Galileo!

    FF will show in the APHA halter classes, where she has to do the little pitter patter trot, she will also show in the CSHA, TB and Open classes up here where she will need that longer, flowing trot stride.

    What do I need to teach her for the DAD class? How will she need to move in order to be competitive in those types of classes?

    All I can remember is the handlers looking like they are running like mad, flat out, to show the lovely expansive movement of the WB and WB cross foals in these types of classes.

    What are the differences between showing in the Hunter Breeding classes and the DAD classes? The big differences and the subtle differences too?

    I have 8 months to work on this ...

    Thanks everyone!

    :Spot:
  • Original Poster

    #2
    Okay - OM has twisted my arm, and I am going to bring the Faux Finish filly to Devon in September to show at DAD, ably assisted by Galileo!

    FF will show in the APHA halter classes, where she has to do the little pitter patter trot, she will also show in the CSHA, TB and Open classes up here where she will need that longer, flowing trot stride.

    What do I need to teach her for the DAD class? How will she need to move in order to be competitive in those types of classes?

    All I can remember is the handlers looking like they are running like mad, flat out, to show the lovely expansive movement of the WB and WB cross foals in these types of classes.

    What are the differences between showing in the Hunter Breeding classes and the DAD classes? The big differences and the subtle differences too?

    I have 8 months to work on this ...

    Thanks everyone!

    :Spot:

    Comment


    • #3
      One other difference that I have seen is that the hunters in hand are shown in a more relaxed frame with the poll level with the withers and the neck a bit stretched out. For DAD they are more compact with the neck up.

      This picture is a little dark, but here is one of my foals at her inspection.
      Attached Files
      Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
      Now apparently completely invisible!

      Comment


      • #4
        For dressage in hand they want to see a good STRETCH from shoulder and over tracking from behind plus suspension. Most handlers run as fast as they can cause horses have such a large stride they loose you otherwise. Of course if you go too fast they flatten out and show less suspension. Experiment and see how your horse handles different "Handler" styles (video tape different styles then evaluate how horse responds).
        Now in Kentucky

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #5
          Any suggestions on how to "school" the differences in trotting in hand?

          thanks!

          :Spot:

          Comment


          • #6
            USDF put out a great video called "Showing Your Sport Horse In Hand." It goes over just about everything you need to know for the dressage shows. I think you can get it via the online store at www.usdf.org.
            Good luck and I hope to see you at DAD next year!

            Comment


            • #7
              Spot -

              I'll try and add to this later on this evening, after all my fires at work are put out!

              Later ...
              "For God hates utterly
              The bray of bragging tongues."
              Sophocles, Antigone Spoken by the Leader of the Chorus of Theban Elders

              Comment


              • #8
                <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spot:
                Any suggestions on how to "school" the differences in trotting in hand?

                thanks!

                :Spot: <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                Try to have it video taped or else have a good grounds person watch you. This way you'll get a feel for the speed to run & so forth. It's hard to run while watching next to you & figure out what you are seeing & what to fix & how to fix.
                "I'm not crazy...my mother had me tested"

                Comment


                • #9
                  The Dutch did a super article over 10 years ago, written by Jeff Moore. ISF use to have it on their site (A 2 part article). Worth it to contact them to get a copy. It was better than anything I have ever seen. Basically it said how to teach the horse to drop it's head and neck at the walk on a signal. At the trot, it discussed getting the horse's head WAY up. Also said that if the horse breaks canter, don't pull him back, but send forward into the trot by elevating their heads, as those would be the best steps. At the conformation evaluation, they should stand totally alert, like they just spotted a deer in their pasture.

                  Just think Arab showing. Yep, that is what they want, and the hottest (nice moving) horse will usually win IF it also can be quiet enough to show a nice walk. I know one mare that was GC, the handler smacked his boot several times with the whip, and the fence rail, while he made hissing noises, saying c'mon mare get up, UP, UP! to get her leaping in place before he took off on the trot.

                  Hilltop uses a chaser person at home with a plastic bag on the end of a whip for the trot. Just don't use is so much that the horse gets relaxed. Then, at the show, remove the bag, but the horse still thinks it is there.

                  The Grand Champion is usually lurching and bucking at the start of lines, and the end they buck, half rear, and snort. hot, hot hot.

                  Of course, these are the horses we expect to be quiet under saddle, and actually, most are. They are just trained that "OK, now we are going to go run and buck in the field" on command.

                  I can NEVER get my horses "up". But if they show really nice walk, show elasticity, and suspension in the trot, and are put together nicely, you should have a chance at a ribbon.

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The Grand Champion is usually lurching and bucking at the start of lines, and the end they buck, half rear, and snort. hot, hot hot.
                    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                    ah yay yay ...

                    You mean pitter patter as slow as can be for APHA, nice long flowing trot for hunter breeding and Arab "up" for the dressage in hand classes?!

                    In all honesty, is this not a bad idea then?

                    Would I not be better off, and probably more successful to aim for the hunter breeding classes at Devon instead, where she can show against her "type" in the TB classes?

                    :Spot:

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      SPOT -

                      Mr. Joey Starbuck will be coming to the Twilight Zone in May to live specifically in order to go to the USDF Sport Horse Breed Shows. THe first one for me is in June.

                      When he gets here I have one month to work with him and prepare him for Christine, who will handle him in the open classes. What will I do?

                      I'll work with him daily, brushing, grooming being together etc. I think I'll start training about a week, or 10 days after he arrives (my trainer will guide me here, of course; plus, Christine will be at the end of a telephone to answer specific questions.)

                      The first thing I will do, which is the same thing that was done with Duc, is the cluck-forward idea. Cluck, move out (hopefully from BEHIND) Straight.

                      Training lasts 10 minutes - 15 max.

                      The second thing is "I am at your shoulder you are out of my space"; when I walk fast, YOU walk fast. When I slow down, YOU slow down.

                      The next thing is "SQUARE" turns, always to the right. The Germans seem to use their hand. I was taught to use a dressage whip (white handle) and "point" the way.

                      So you walk walk walk walk, right turn (90 degrees) walk walk walk right turn (90 degrees) walk walk walk right turn, etc., until you've done a square and you're back to the beginning.

                      Once all this is done, then the trot. I was taught to NEVER do the "big trot" to prep. Supposedly your baby will be UP enough to do it. And, to be honest, I've never had a problem.


                      <span class="ev_code_RED">Huge Giant Disclaimer.</span>
                      I am NOT a professional. I do not WANT to be a professional. I do not CLAIM to know as much as any of the pros I've worked with. I have spent only two years doing this stuff. In the grand scheme of things, I know squat.

                      I'm just passing on what I was taught. I spent one entire weekend at Christine's farm each month in March, April, May 2003. And this is approximately what I was taught. I've only shown in TWO amateur handler classes and I placed First and Third.

                      MAYHEM, who was also taught by Christine came in Third at Devon in the Amateur handlers class ... which was huge.

                      This is kinda the beginning... I mean this is where I started with Duc. Slow, patient. I've always wanted RELAXED ... obedient ... well behaved. But Duc has a wonderful-wonderful-wonderful walk with a very large overstride. I want to show it off.

                      Does this make sense?

                      After all this stuff is done, we start on "standing up" and "step up" to show open positions on both sides as the judge walks around.
                      "For God hates utterly
                      The bray of bragging tongues."
                      Sophocles, Antigone Spoken by the Leader of the Chorus of Theban Elders

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        ah yay yay ...

                        You mean pitter patter as slow as can be for APHA, nice long flowing trot for hunter breeding and Arab "up" for the dressage in hand classes?!

                        In all honesty, is this not a bad idea then?

                        Would I not be better off, and probably more successful to aim for the hunter breeding classes at Devon instead, where she can show against her "type" in the TB classes?

                        :Spot:[/QUOTE]


                        Spot, Even in the APSHA and TB classes at Dressage at Devon, the horses are being judged for their potential as a dressage/sport horse. You still want to show that potential, not the "breed specific" potential.

                        I think you can still do both hunter type breed classes and dressage/sport horse breed classes. You just have to train the horse to know what you want at any given time. It's all in body position (yours AND theirs).

                        Edited to correct the acronym.
                        I support and enable the USA bred horse and the USA breeder.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          This is so educational, OMOM you are doing a great job explaining it.

                          Spot, my filly is wb/tb and sooo calm at shows. I really need to practice getting her 'UP'. She has a gorgeous floatly trot, I see her doing it every day in the pasture. But when you trot in hand she is so well behaved, she stays right at your shoulder and her trot is average to slow. Maybe its because I cant run fast enough.

                          Christine handled her at Fair Hill, and commented on how calm and good she was...yet she didnt show any spark or flair Maybe it was because she was falling asleep in the hot sun waiting for her class to begin! Any ideas OMOM ?
                          ~ Scarborough Fair Farm ~

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Iluvgoldies:
                            Any ideas OMOM ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                            Hmmmmm.

                            The only thing I can suggest is to talk to Christine about it. She'll be MORE than happy to help figure out something to do that might help. Oh, and if you do, please pass it on!!

                            Personally, I want my baby well mannered. I do know what you mean about the "floaty" trot though. Duc always does that in the pasture ... how do you make it happen in the show ring?

                            Well, I can say this. We were working on the trot at Christine's one day ... she was handling him and was doing a moderate run (trot) And it looked like he came on the bit. His face was a little in front of the vertical.

                            So I asked, "What did you do?" and Christine replied "I gave him a little half-halt and he dropped right down."

                            Now, was that a technically correct half-halt? Heck, I don't know. Half halts to me--not that I can ride one correctly--involve the seat as well. But what I THINK it achieved was more from behind.

                            Looking back I think the first time Christine worked with Duc was the best. Now this is going to *sound* a bit harsh. It wasn't.

                            The very first time she worked with him, he knew how to lead, yes, but did not know how to respond to a cluck-GO FORWARD. She had him in a halter with chain over his nose. She clucked ... no response. Her dressage whip was in her left hand and she slightly turned her body to the left and WHOMP! Right on his BUTT (important). His head came up, his eyes opened wide and you could see the thought bubble above his head ... "Whoa ... what was THAT?"

                            She turned back, began to walk forward again, clucked ... no response again ... WHOMP (on the BUTT). Shock from Duc. "Hey! What's this?" Third time, walk straight, cluck,... and the desired result as Duc semi-bolted from behind. Which is exactly what she wanted ... movement underneath and from behind.

                            LOTS of praise, petting and good boys. All that needed to happen from this point on was to relax down from the semi-bolt to a move-forward.

                            Christine also has a lot of good ideas--one of the most important is keeping all the tests/score sheets, which I have done. As I look at them now, I see the same remarks consistently. But a lot has to do with growth too. For example, one of the comments that was very consistent in his yearling year was "needs more swing through the back", which is in the specifications on the score sheet. When he hit his two year old year, almost every single test had a comment about "nice swing", "some nice swing", "swinging back", "nice Marilyn Monroe swing"

                            Plus, the brilliant suspension I saw when he was a baby is starting to come back. I think it disappears, because of growth then reappears once they develop, especially more muscle.

                            Heck, I don't know. Does this make sense?

                            <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>After doing this for two years, and planning on a third year, the conclusion I have come to is simple. The REAL reason why I take him to shows is to prepare him to BE shown. As Christine, and a LOT of others say, "We are raising P-E-R-F-O-R-M-A-N-C-E horses, not breed-show horses."

                            Does this mean I don't want him to do as well as he possibly can? Of course not. I'd love to see a whole row of blues because I really LOFF this horse.

                            But I do realize, as the remarks from the judges have confirmed, he is going to be one heck of guy under saddle. And ultimately, that is what is really important. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                            Oh, and lastly. The breed shows are a heck of a lot of fun ... and I really LOVE LOVE LOVE meeting all the different breeders, looking at their darlings, talking, learning, LISTENING, connecting. That's the stuff that's really invaluable.
                            "For God hates utterly
                            The bray of bragging tongues."
                            Sophocles, Antigone Spoken by the Leader of the Chorus of Theban Elders

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Spot sounds like your best bet is teach a bit of everything. What helped me the most outside of Christine's great help was teaching the basics and making sure each cue is consistent so he knew exactly what I wanted every time. Being able to place the head exactly (well almost) where you need it to be when YOU want it and regulating the gaits are a tremendous help. This also helps when you start riding. It is something you can work on everyday when leading your horse takes about 5 minutes, I have found less time but more repitions works best at least for my guy. You just have to figure out what you want out of it, for me I just want exposure for my youngster in hopes that he will be a better performance horse. If he does well and the judges like him then that is a plus. You have to learn to just keep it all in perspective and remember it is an opinion and each judge has a different opinion.
                              And watch out because it is addicting!!!!!!! I have become addicted to showing my horse to the best of my ability for me it is like riding but on the ground and I am determined to win that Amatuer Class at Devon some year!!!!!! Well I can try anyhow! Good Luck!!

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Another 'little' thing you can do is every time you lead her into her stall, turn her right. It will help ingrain the right turn and she won't even know you're doing it. I see quite a few horses on the line that fight that right hand turn.
                                I support and enable the USA bred horse and the USA breeder.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Hey, don't let anyone kid you....

                                  Mayhem came in THIRD in the Amateur Handlers Class at Devon.

                                  THAT, m'dears, is no mean feat!

                                  (hey Mayhem... congrats a bit late )
                                  "For God hates utterly
                                  The bray of bragging tongues."
                                  Sophocles, Antigone Spoken by the Leader of the Chorus of Theban Elders

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    OMOM- stop giving away my secrets your are going to jinx me. But thanks your not to shabby yourself!!!!

                                    Yep definatley practice the right turns never turn left a lesson I learned a bit late. Comes in handy especially when they are bucking rearing and spooking!!!

                                    Iluvgoldies, if you are in this for a great performance horse I wouldn't worry about her being too calm that is going to come in handy for sure!!! Maybe you are overpracticing?
                                    I am no expert but they are just animals, my guy is perfectly calm one show and a total freak doing leaps and bounds the next.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      What type of bit should be used on a 2 year old for the hunter breeding classes???
                                      http://www.talloaksfarm.net ---"Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts." --- Winston Churchill

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        For the HUNTER breeding, a big fat D ring suits a square jaw and is most popular. I still like a full cheeck on a filly or one with a really typy head.

                                        Comment

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