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Disappointment @ inspection ISR/OLD.... MUST READ

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  • Disappointment @ inspection ISR/OLD.... MUST READ



    That is it.. I have had it..... Although I have time after time educated my breeders about the different registries but this is the FINAL straw. This is why I have filed a complaint with the government about the ISR/OLD misleading the public..... It is not Cheryl's fault....

    This is the email I just got
    "My name is Cheryl Stokes. I bred my Le Champion mare to your late Budweiser Stallion. At the inspection at Riverland Fames in Livermore Sept. 21st, I was denied grading and branding of my beautiful filly I named Bionic, because of a problem (the judge told me) with your stallion Budweiser.
    How can everyone else seemingly, get inspected and branded - but not me? I argued with the judge - but he would not budge! He told me that you did not "present' him to the Oldenburg Verband in the U.S.
    My mare however, got Premium Mare with 106 points! But my baby got NOTHING! The audience sure thought she was special.
    Have you had this problem with other mare owners? I noticed on the web sites that Budweiser has an extensive number of first premium babies on the ground...then comes Bionic and they won't even grade her!
    Please, please email me with a solution to this problem (if you can) I am very disappointed and frustrated with this problem. I tryed to breed a top quality animal and have a big ZERO!
    Thank-you for you time, Cheryl Stokes " pcstokes@microz.net



    Hmmmmm>>>>>> Now that I have PROVE that the is misleading the public, I will go to the next step. Would love to hear your thoughts...

    Heike

    Sincerely
    Heike Albert
    http://www.ixpres.com/gwranch
    Sincerely
    Heike Albert
    http://www.ixpres.com/gwranch
  • Original Poster

    #2


    That is it.. I have had it..... Although I have time after time educated my breeders about the different registries but this is the FINAL straw. This is why I have filed a complaint with the government about the ISR/OLD misleading the public..... It is not Cheryl's fault....

    This is the email I just got
    "My name is Cheryl Stokes. I bred my Le Champion mare to your late Budweiser Stallion. At the inspection at Riverland Fames in Livermore Sept. 21st, I was denied grading and branding of my beautiful filly I named Bionic, because of a problem (the judge told me) with your stallion Budweiser.
    How can everyone else seemingly, get inspected and branded - but not me? I argued with the judge - but he would not budge! He told me that you did not "present' him to the Oldenburg Verband in the U.S.
    My mare however, got Premium Mare with 106 points! But my baby got NOTHING! The audience sure thought she was special.
    Have you had this problem with other mare owners? I noticed on the web sites that Budweiser has an extensive number of first premium babies on the ground...then comes Bionic and they won't even grade her!
    Please, please email me with a solution to this problem (if you can) I am very disappointed and frustrated with this problem. I tryed to breed a top quality animal and have a big ZERO!
    Thank-you for you time, Cheryl Stokes " pcstokes@microz.net



    Hmmmmm>>>>>> Now that I have PROVE that the is misleading the public, I will go to the next step. Would love to hear your thoughts...

    Heike

    Sincerely
    Heike Albert
    http://www.ixpres.com/gwranch
    Sincerely
    Heike Albert
    http://www.ixpres.com/gwranch

    Comment


    • #3
      Heike,
      From what I understand, ISR will not approve a foal if the sire is not presented to them to them. IF you want to beed a mare to a stallion that is not currently approved, tyou must submit an application as well as a additional fee to get a single permit to breed to that stallion. This must be done in the year of breeding (ie, BEFORE breeding) , not aat the time the foal is presented. If the breeding director does not approve that stallion, your permit will be denied, and the foal will not be approved. It is spelled out in the rules and regulations of the organization and I have bred several mares to permit stallions by submitting an application ahead of time. I think the owner should have had a clearer understanding of the rules before she presented or should have picked a different organization where her foal was eligible for registration
      Another case of the breeder not clearly understanding the regulations
      http://www.cngsporthorses.com

      Comment


      • #4
        Heike, I also thought that you made it ABUNDANTLY clear that you WILL NOT allow any of the foals by your stallions to be presented to the ISR/OLNA, so why are you whining that the owner presented the horse to the 'wrong' registry????? You are SO anti ISR that I can't believe that YOU didn't educate your client. Why is this the ISR's fault???

        Tranquility Farm
        We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice
        Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
        Now apparently completely invisible!

        Comment


        • #5
          Heike, you know that I support GOV, but here I have to take side of the ISR/Old NA. It is not their fault if one of your clients takes the foal to the ISR/Old NA for presentation. It is rather the fault of correct education. I thought you are making it all clear to your clients that your stallions are not approved with ISR/Old NA and that the foals must therefore be presented to GOV. Budweiser is not approved for ISR/Old NA so how is that their fault if they do not brand his foals? I thought your breeding contract states that the foals cannot be presented to ISR/Old NA, so why did that client do so? Honestly I think it is HER fault if you have educated her upfront!

          http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
          Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses
          Gwendolyn
          http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.com
          Exceptional colored German WBs, TBs and Arabians

          Comment


          • #6
            Heike,

            You know we love you to pieces but the terms of your contract are well known and they clearly prohibit taking a foal from one of your stallions to the International Sporthorse Registry or the Oldenburg Registry North America (a.k.a. ISR / Old NA) In fact, that well known clause is the reason we will not do business with you... for example, we purchased Lord Sinclair’s semen from another vendor rather than accept the terms of your contract (or be forced to violate said terms).

            Now it appears one of your clients didn’t bother to read the terms of your contract very carefully.

            IF by "filing a complaint" you mean to imply that you're filing suit... well, we live in a country where anyone who pays a filing fee can file a lawsuit… but I really don’t see where you have a legal cause of action against Oldenburg North America based upon the facts you’ve set forth in your post above, and I would be curious to know what other government agency you could have reported the ISR/Old NA to. That all sounds just plain silly!

            You seem to be implying that your above scenario constitutes proof that the ISR/Old NA is misleading the public. Sorry, but I don’t see it. And if you read the court’s July of 200O Final Order in you know that our courts have already determined that the GOV has mislead American breeders… not the ISR/Old NA.

            Btw, ISR/Oldenburg NA was not a party to your contract with Ms Stokes and they are not bound by its terms. However, if the Oldenburg Registry North America had gone ahead and accepted your foal, you might have had a cause of action against Ms. Stokes for her breach of contract.

            This year we presented a Feinbrand filly to ISR/Old NA. Before doing so we took the time to read the rules… we paid the extra fee, our filly was inspected and throughout the process we were treated with the utmost courtesy and respect by the Inspectors for Oldenburg Registry North American.

            You’re a lovely woman Heike with a lot of integrity… I think you owe ISR /Old NA an apology here.

            Elaine

            [This message was edited by Cartier on Sep. 27, 2003 at 04:34 PM.]
            Logres Farm on Facebook
            http://logresfarmpintowarmbloods.com/
            http://logresdobermans.com/

            Comment


            • #7
              Well Im glad to hear that the ISR held up their part of the bargain and did not accept a non-ISR approved stallion. Cudos to them because I know this has not always been the case.

              Unfortunately there is no way you can dummy down a contract enough to make sure everyone gets it. Heike-your beef is with the mare owner who cant figure it out. Although, I would double check with her again on if the ISR told her "He told me that you did not "present' him to the Oldenburg Verband in the U.S. " IF the ISR used that language then shame on them that is misleading. But there are two sides to every story and Im sure you will get this all ironed out.
              ~Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away...

              Comment


              • #8
                My thoughts are the same too Heike....I thought your contract forbid anyone to present their foals to the ISR/OLD if they were bred to your stallions??! Im confused?

                As everyone knows I am a GOV supporter and it is well known that the GOV and ISR do not see themself as a combined group. So being different breeding/registry groups all together. So if the ISR is a seperate organization all together and Bud was not presented for Stallion approval, then it was not even an option for the foal to get rated?! We all know that to prsent a foal to a registry that the stallion has to be approved by THAT registry?!?

                Im sorry, I am just really confused with the whole deal and the breeders motives?!?!

                "So many people believe that they can teach themselves and educate their horses without having to pay for compentent tuition, especially those who mostly need it"......Alfred Knopfhart

                Dressagedirttaster
                www.spindletopfarms.com
                Swedish Warmblood Breeding
                www.spindletopfarm.net
                Home of Puerto D'Azur - 1998 NA 100 Day Test Champion
                "Charcter is much easier kept than recovered"

                Comment


                • #9
                  Heike, you know I like you a lot, too. I have used and will continue to use your fine stallions. But you are off base here. This was NOT the ISR's fault. They well know that you will not allow any foal by one of your stallions to be registered with them and Bud is not approved by them for that reason. They did the right thing by turning down the foal.

                  It seems to me that you are mad that the client thought the ISR/ONA was the same as the GOV. And I know you are mad that ISR even uses the name "Oldenburg". We all know there is a lot of confusion with this, but I think you need to be more mad at yourself for not making sure this mare owner understood what she was supposed to do.

                  Sonesta Farms - breeding Hanoverian, Knabstrupper and Arabian sport horses.<BR>
                  "Find something you love & call it work."
                  Visit Sonesta Farms website at www.sonestafarms.com or our FaceBook page at www.facebook.com/sonestafarms. Also showing & breeding Cavalier King Charles Spaniels.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GW Ranch:
                    I tryed to breed a top quality animal and have a big ZERO!
                    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                    That is SO rude! I'll take that filly off her hands if she thinks she has a zero. Some people....

                    http://www.dmtc.com/dmtc98/Pedigree/
                    Look up your TB's bloodlines

                    "Common sense is so rare nowadays, it should be classified as a super power."-Craig Bear Laubscher

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GW Ranch:


                      It is not Cheryl's fault....

                      <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                      Heike, you know I respect you and your stallions. But, in fact, this IS Cheryl's fault. Your contract is perfectly clear. We can't continue to excuse people's gross errors because of their claim of ignorance. SHE has to be accountable for HER mistake. She didn't read the contract, obviously.

                      I would think you should be happy that the ISR/ONA would not register this foal because that would have been against your wishes. I think the ISR/ONA did everything right here.

                      I don't think you have anything to complain about, except frustrations with breeders who don't read or listen.

                      The breeder's comment about her foal being a zero seems very loutish to me. I'm quite certain that this foal, being by Budweiser, is VERY nice. She lost a year, but can get the foal inspected with the appropriate registry next year.

                      My sympathies are extended to you for having to work with some breeders who can't/won't read and try to put the responsibility back on you.

                      Oakleigh

                      ~~~~&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;****~~*~~****&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;~ ~~~
                      Breeder of Holsteiner and Oldenburg prospects.
                      Oakleigh Sporthorses
                      Oakleigh Sporthorses Sale Horses

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I don't think it's the ISR's fault. It's the mare owner's responsibility to access what registries the stallion they breed to is approved for.

                        It's your client's fault for not doing her homework. If she READ your contract, she would have known the stallion was not approved ISR. Obviously she didn't read her contract. She also never bothered to check the stallion's approval with the ISR.

                        The ISR did not mislead her. They told her that your stallion was not approved with them, therefore the foal wasn't eligible for their Oldenburg papers. I'm sure they could have issued her a Certificate of Pedigree - but then your contract states you will sue the mare owner, so in all appearances, in fact, the ISR did your client a favor (she won't get sued by you).

                        I don't know what your problem is, but I'll bet it's hard to pronounce.
                        Hopeful Farm Sport Horses
                        Midwest Breeders Group
                        Follow me on Twitter
                        Join me on Facebook

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Heike, with all due respect, I seem to remember that you wanted to sue ISR a few years ago because they were issuing registration papers to Feiner Stern foals against your wishes. Now you are upset because they won't issue registration papers to a Budweiser foal. Your contract is clear that you do not want foals sired by your stallions registered with ISR. ISR's rules are clear also - they will not issue registration papers to foals of stallions that have not been presented to them, unless the stallion has an "international" show record and reputation (which Budweiser does not). ISR stood by its own rules, but your mare owner did not abide by your contract. Your beef should be with the mare owner, not with ISR. You and she have two choices - you can sue the mare owner for breach of your breeding contract, or you and she can settle this amicably between the two of you and she can present the mare and foal next year to GOV. I'm sure GOV will inspect this foal as a yearling given the unfortunate set of circumstances. I do agree though that it is terribly confusing to novice breeders to have two separate organizations operating in the U.S. that use the Oldenburg name - it would be so much simpler if ISR would just stick to the ISR name for its horses.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Why doesn't the owner just present the baby to AWR or AWS? I mean...so what if ISR or whoever doesn't want her because the sire is unapproved? You can't ride the papers! All these registries are unbelievably confusing to the uninitiated folks and new breeders. Why can't we all just support American WB registries and keep it simple?

                            "No hour of life is lost that is spent in the saddle..." Winston Churchill

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Heike, this has happened to us a lest once or twice a year with our stallion Spectrum. The mare owners assume since he is registered ISR/OLD NA that he is approved with them--HE IS NOT also since most of our other stallions are approved by both mare owners often assume, we try to make it very clear in our information that Spectrum is approved by Oldenburg Verband only not ISR/OLD NA and that he is also approved RPSI and AWS The few times the owners have taken the foals to the ISR/OLD NA inspections the inspectors have said the stallion IS NOT APPROVED by them, which is correct he is NOT, but the mare owners always get upset (classic example you gave of the reaction of mare owner). It is NOT the job of ISR/OLD NA to say where he is approved or that he is approved by Old Verband/Oldenburg Breeders Society, though that would make it easier on me/you and lessen the anger of the mare owner until I have a chance to explain it to them again. As I said IT IS NOT their job to tell the mare owner who your stallion is or isn't approved with, only that he is NOT with them so ISR/OLD NA is 100% correct in how they dealt with your confused client. You make it so abundantly clear that you do not deal with ISR/OLD NA in your contract that I agree with everyone else here this is your clients fault and ISR/OLD NA handled it with complete professionalism and are not at fault. Sorry it is never fun to deal with an angry/confused client, but really they have nothing to be angry about, you are clear in your contract.

                              Liz Hall silverwoodfarm.com
                              Pinto & Colored Warmbloods Stallions
                              Liz Hall silverwoodfarm.com Warmblood Pintos

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                "Late Budweiser stallion"??? Did something happen to him?...or was this just a typo? (holding breath)

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Budweiser is now in Germany, being ridden by Gilbert Boeckmann. According to Heike’s website he did very well at his first jumping competition in Germany.
                                  Logres Farm on Facebook
                                  http://logresfarmpintowarmbloods.com/
                                  http://logresdobermans.com/

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    A perspective:
                                    I am just presenting a prespective from other European Verbands. Several Verbands have a caveat in their regulations stating that is a stallion has been approved and rated in a certain percentage, etc., or achieved certian performance goals/requirements, they will accept foals from that stallion without the stallion being a "card-carryng meber" of their organzation, particularly with very nice foals.

                                    For example, I had presented my Latvian mare to the Westfalen in 2001 after doing a embryo transfer to Freestyle. After that time, I imported several Danish horses and had the team of four Danish inspectors here to brand the Danish filly. They had seen the mare and the colt and requested that they see the pedigree of hte mare and breeding certificate of hte colt. The mare was graded Elite in Latvia, by the Westfalen. They graded the colt a 9 overall, said that he was a stallion candidate, etc. The DV had worked very hard to get Freestyle to Denmark, but he ended up at Nijoff instead. They wanted the Florestan and Poloma mare blood brought into their program. No the donw-side is that to date, the DV has no provision for licensing a stallion in hte USA. It has to go to Denmark for testing, etc.

                                    Another example of a caveat being exercised occurred this year when the RPSI came to Texas. I had the DNA for my Cabalito filly out of an A-line mare. The mare was presented for inspection by my friend, who owns here. They inspected and branded the filly. Her grand-dam had not been presented to the AHS, so she could not get branded with them, even though her dam had been inspected. GEEZ.

                                    As such, because we are in America and spread to the four winds, we can't drive around a short distance for an inspection. In terms of breeding Warmbloods, our country is still young, relatively speaking. It makes sense to work with the verbands that will work best with what you have.

                                    My one experience with the ISR was when I attended the 2002 approvals at Star Gate in 2002. I asked about registering my three DIamond foals, due in 2003. He has a trackable production record with excellent interior and exterior scores. The inspector told me that they did not approve Diamond. Well, that told me something about that group, so I knew that in the future, I wouldn't have anything of interest to them.

                                    So Cheryl, I recommend that you present your foal as a yearling to another verband. Do your home work in the interim. Feel free to contact me.

                                    Donna Ray
                                    Carson Farm
                                    www.sportequine.com for the Daily Journal

                                    Sorry this happened.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      The rules/regulations for the ISR/OLDNA are published and I'm not sure how anyone can make the statement the breeder was mislead in anyway. The list of APPROVED stallions is published on the website and in the breeders guide. The foal with the mare was eligible for a Certificat of Pedigree but it would appear the mare owner didn't want that option.

                                      Using frozen semen of stallions NOT approved in the US is considered on a case by case basis and is to be done PRIOR to breeding. The stallion in question was in the US and never presented for approval. So consequently foals by him even out of approved mares - are NOT eligible for papers/branding by either the ISR or the OLDNA.
                                      Summit Sporthorses Ltd. Inc.
                                      "Breeding Competition Partners & Lifelong Friends"

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        The issue of a stallion being approved by one registry and not approved by another usually does not have much of anything to do with the quality of the stallion, but rather the goals of the particular registry. I think it is in very poor taste to publicly trash a registry that turned down a stallion with a wonderful record when the reason may have been that he didn't meet the TYPE they were looking for. If all stallions (and mares) were of the same type we would only need one registry. All the European registries were originally regional, and they were all looking for good sport horses, but they all had different types in mind that they were looking for. Many of them now accept other registries stallions and mares, but I don't know of ANY that automatically accept all other registries' animals. In fact, maybe Gwen or Alexandra can chip in here, but now that they have new regulations in Europe and have to take other registries' stallion's offspring if they are out of their mares, I think there are some hard feelings there if the stallions are not 'their type'.

                                        Tranquility Farm
                                        We don't have many, but the ones we have are nice
                                        Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
                                        Now apparently completely invisible!

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