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110-day test stallions? Anyone?

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  • #21
    Sonesta, this is what YOU posted on that thread:

    "Take a careful look at the report. With the exception of the AVT fiasco, there were no terrible scenes in my opinion. We have all, if we have trained horses or been around the training of horses, seen a horse panic and flip the first time in side reins. We have ALL had to aim a horse into a wall to stop him. And "getting tough with a horse" and then "laughing about it" is hardly a crime as there was no description of what was done that was "tough." I submit that you had BETTER get tough with a stallion at times or you will be in trouble.

    So, what we have left is some crappy hay (which I can tell you from actually BEING there was, indeed, crappy looking, but I was also told while I was there that this was the one bad shipment that had just come in and EVERYONE was upset about it), bedding that was too light for some, poor communication with stallion owners and the possibility for a PERCEPTION of impropriety because the TD was an ISR board member and had trained a couple of the stallions.

    The saddest part was the pony who didn't get his shoes changed. That was terrible and shouldn't have happened. That was a clusterf*ck of the first order and would have pissed me off no end, too."

    So,

    #1. You agree that a stallion had his head tied to his stirrup and was chased around by an ATV, then left alone & unsupervised in the paddock, sweaty, stirrups down with his head still tied to the stirrup.

    #2. You agree that the hay was very bad.

    #3. You agree that the farrier work was spotty at best with one pony stallion going 75 days without his feet getting down.

    #4. You agree that the bedding was poor causing hock sores, etc.

    Also, from THE REPORT, the FEDERATION also doesn't like the control that ISR/Oldna & AHS has accounting for 65% of the score for all stallions and thinks that it is a conflict of interest - especially when they charge stallion owners to be the stallions' trainer prior to the test - so they, according to THE REPORT get to pick the stallions that go to the test, get to be paid to train the stallions for the test, then get to judge the stallions for the test and then get to judge those stallions' foals as premium or not - doesn't even past the remotest smell test and THE FEDERATION agrees.

    Sonesta, you have the audacity to ask ME if I'M CLUELESS???? Give me a break.

    Edgar, you did nothing to improve the test. We all know the improvements were made because of us "loudmouths". YOUR WELCOME.

    Comment


    • #22
      Ah, so you will try to misquote and try and twist my words to fit your agenda? Why am I not surprised that the owner/editor/publisher of the failed Warmbloods Magazine who took people's money for nothing would do such a thing. Yes, Kathy Stover, I now know who you are.

      My words stand for themselves and your added insinuations are your own. Get over yourself.


      #1. You agree that a stallion had his head tied to his stirrup and was chased around by an ATV, then left alone & unsupervised in the paddock, sweaty, stirrups down with his head still tied to the stirrup.

      Absolutely do not agree. The oft proffered and discussed video of a stallion with his head tied being chased with an ATV was proven not to exist. The THOUGHT of it was disturbing. Still is. But again, no proof except claims by someone with an agenda. And the explanation of what actually happened was WAY more plausible than your insinuations of abuse.

      #2. You agree that the hay was very bad.

      Only the last batch. The hay was ONE SHIPMENT received the day before the finals. EVERYONE was pissed about it's quality. But one shipment does not "TERRIBLE HAY FOR THE ENTIRE TESTING" make. And I have photos of EVERY SINGLE stallion the day they arrived and the last day of the testing. ALL looked better at the end. So, I don't think they were doing anything wrong with the feed before this bad shipment of hay. And I'm sure YOU'VE never received a bad load?

      #3. You agree that the farrier work was spotty at best with one pony stallion going 75 days without his feet getting down.

      Absolutely NOT. The poor pony's shoes not being changed was a result of plain old bad communication, not BAD HORSEMANSHIP or ABUSE as you fools would like it to seem. And the pony's owner deserves some responsibility here as they sent the pony there with overdue shoes. If they'd done their job and had his shoes reset before he came it would not have been an issue, now would it? The farrier was not supposed to have had to worry about the ponies who were to be there only 30 days. Somehow, someone dropped the ball and did not alert him that this pony needed his shoes reset. But, then, no harm, no foul. He performed just fine. But I would STILL have been pissed if I were his owner. Pissed, but hardly thinking the staff was criminal.

      #4. You agree that the bedding was poor causing hock sores, etc.

      Wrong again. Bedding was too light FOR SOME. Most found it quite fine, thank you. You can't please everyone - as any barn owner knows. There was certainly no general finding of inadequate bedding or problems with the bedding. Just a mention of a couple of complaints.

      Folks, please understand that there are some who like to scream that the sky is falling. Before you run around and repeat their hysteria, do some REAL research.

      Before I pointed out the link to the Federation's letter, I almost posted a request that those of you reading post what you THINK or BELIEVED happened at the last testing (I'm sure the list would have been horrifying) and THEN posted a link to the letter to show that it was much more tame than the hysteria would indicate. Wish I had done.
      Last edited by Sonesta; Sep. 5, 2007, 08:56 PM.
      Visit Sonesta Farms website at www.sonestafarms.com or our FaceBook page at www.facebook.com/sonestafarms. Also showing & breeding Cavalier King Charles Spaniels.

      Comment


      • #23
        Ya know, I think some buyers hear/read about all the hoopla over the NA testing and rather than wade through all the stuff, they figure it is easier to just pay the extra money and buy in Europe. Semen, horses, whatever.

        The Oldenburg registeries "war" had that effect a few years ago. I could see buyers saying they did not want to make the wrong choice so they would buy neither. I felt that way myself. It's hard enough for mare owners to recoup costs, let alone be ahead.

        The adage "where there's smoke, there's fire" has truth to it. I am not questioning that some bad stuff happened in the past.

        Let's move on. Rehashing and rehashing is such a turn off to buyers for all our programs.
        www.oakhollowstable.blogspot.com

        Comment


        • #24
          removed to rethink
          Visit Sonesta Farms website at www.sonestafarms.com or our FaceBook page at www.facebook.com/sonestafarms. Also showing & breeding Cavalier King Charles Spaniels.

          Comment


          • #25
            I hate to even engage but......tri.....GET A LIFE!!!!
            Owner of a stallion gone through the testing and another son there now!!
            BRING IT ON!!!!!
            www.enavantstud.com

            Comment


            • #26
              I may be reading this wrong but the report cited on page 7 of the previous thread said


              "We did independently verify that the horse was "chased" by an ATV."

              Thus, it seems that this did occur.

              Comment


              • #27
                Depends upon your definition of "chased." Remember, there is ALWAYS more to a story than there appears. I wasn't there and cannot be a source of first-hand knowledge on this issue. IF (HUGE "IF") the TD actually did intentionally chase a stallion with an ATV while the stallion's head was tied to a stirrup, then SHAME ON HIM. No defending it.

                All I'm saying is that we have only ONE person to say this happened. And, I'm sorry, but that person would say (and has said) just about ANYTHING to discredit the testing. So, I consider the source.

                As for tying the head to a stirrup, while it's not something I would ever do in training, it IS in fact a commonly accepting training tactic - like it or not.

                And if THAT is the only thing left to make the entire testing so horrible, then... um, maybe there has been some serious over-reacting? Or maybe some alterior motives? Think about it.
                Visit Sonesta Farms website at www.sonestafarms.com or our FaceBook page at www.facebook.com/sonestafarms. Also showing & breeding Cavalier King Charles Spaniels.

                Comment


                • #28
                  Sonesta,
                  I do not pretend to know much but it seems the quote that I placed in my comment about the ATV was from the report generated by the "Powers that be" and was mentioned in your post in the past. That is where I got it.

                  I really think the problem is that they said the event occurred but noreal explanation has been offered. Maybe you do not feel an explanation is needed but others might feel it is. Horse or any type of animal abuse is a hot button issue as evidenced by the controversy about Amy Tryon and Michael Vick.

                  Being strightforward and honest generally helps and I think even Bill Clinton would tell you that now.

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Is the testing accepted by the KWPN ?

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Originally posted by EAH View Post
                      I really think the problem is that they said the event occurred but noreal explanation has been offered. Maybe you do not feel an explanation is needed but others might feel it is. Horse or any type of animal abuse is a hot button issue as evidenced by the controversy about Amy Tryon and Michael Vick.

                      Being strightforward and honest generally helps and I think even Bill Clinton would tell you that now.
                      You hit the nail right on the head. Stepping up to the plate, and acknkowledging that there have been concerns, and they are trying to fix them would have instantly silenced many people. Instead, the attitude was, we are above answering to anyone, and we can do anything we like and everyone just better shut up, and live with it.

                      I do hope this testing goes smoothly.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Originally posted by EAH View Post
                        Sonesta,
                        I do not pretend to know much but it seems the quote that I placed in my comment about the ATV was from the report generated by the "Powers that be" and was mentioned in your post in the past. That is where I got it.

                        I really think the problem is that they said the event occurred but noreal explanation has been offered. Maybe you do not feel an explanation is needed but others might feel it is. Horse or any type of animal abuse is a hot button issue as evidenced by the controversy about Amy Tryon and Michael Vick.

                        Being strightforward and honest generally helps and I think even Bill Clinton would tell you that now.
                        Yes, you are correct that there has been "no comment" when there should have been forthcoming comment. I was given a very plausible (to me) explanation of what happened with regard to the ATV incident (and lots more stuff). However, I was asked not to forward any of the information in that email. I always honor my word even though I have been SORELY tempted to break it on this one.

                        I would ask that you please take my word for it that sometimes there is more to a story than what meets the eye from across a field. And that it may well have been nothing sinister at all. But I do concede that I was not there and cannot know first hand.

                        But others are also correct and additional rehashing of the subject is counter-productive. So, I will try and end my additions to this thread. I just have a hard time sitting silent while some try to continually poison the well about the testing with absolute falsehoods.
                        Visit Sonesta Farms website at www.sonestafarms.com or our FaceBook page at www.facebook.com/sonestafarms. Also showing & breeding Cavalier King Charles Spaniels.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Let’s not forget that just about everyone on this forum who is so frantically trying to downplay the “issues” from past testings is somehow involved with the testing group and/or the sponsoring registries - either as official videographer, official announcer, registry board member, etc. It is therefore understandable that they do not have an impartial viewpoint.

                          Let’s also not forget that all of us who support stallion performance testing better hope this one is hugely successful and free of the controversy that has marked past testings. If there are problems with this test, it may well be the end of stallion testing in this country, at least for a long while.

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            I'm not an official anything with the testing. I asked permission to video and make the videos available to the public. Same as any photographer.

                            My concerns are that we not DESTROY the testing here with innuendo and falsehoods. That would benefit no one here.

                            And remember, the testings in Germany have issues each year as well. We just don't seem to crucify their testings, like we do here.
                            Visit Sonesta Farms website at www.sonestafarms.com or our FaceBook page at www.facebook.com/sonestafarms. Also showing & breeding Cavalier King Charles Spaniels.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              OK, my bad. But if you have official blessings from the testing company to video the proceedings and sell the DVDs, that sort of makes you official, whether you have the title or not.

                              And I'm not sure that anyone wants to DESTROY the testing, but rather HELP it become better and safer and more fair for ALL participants.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by DownYonder View Post
                                OK, my bad. But if you have official blessings from the testing company to video the proceedings and sell the DVDs, that sort of makes you official, whether you have the title or not.

                                And I'm not sure that anyone wants to DESTROY the testing, but rather HELP it become better and safer and more fair for ALL participants.
                                Cool! Any system can always be improved. By help and not villification.

                                And there are a number of folks out there who seem to have a mission to destroy it.
                                Visit Sonesta Farms website at www.sonestafarms.com or our FaceBook page at www.facebook.com/sonestafarms. Also showing & breeding Cavalier King Charles Spaniels.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by Sonesta View Post
                                  And there are a number of folks out there who seem to have a mission to destroy it.

                                  Boy that is the way I see it from where I have been all these years!!
                                  http://www.talloaksfarm.net ---"Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts." --- Winston Churchill

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    help

                                    Originally posted by Sonesta View Post
                                    Cool! Any system can always be improved. By help and not villification.

                                    And there are a number of folks out there who seem to have a mission to destroy it.
                                    Sonesta,
                                    I tried to discuss this matter with the "officials" for almost 2 years (between 2002 and 2004). I wanted to share my experiences and wanted to find out what EXACTLY happened to my stallion, so I could treat him better. I got screamed at and threatened with a lawsuit right off the bat. I couldn't do anything then, because I did not have any proof what had been going on....well, after the 2004 event, I have got some.

                                    Also, please, tell me where on earth there's a description of tying the horse's head to the girth then chasing him with a fourwheeler in the books of classical training? There is NO PLACE for this in sporthorse training. PERIOD. Andras
                                    Andras
                                    http://www.prairiepinesfarm.com
                                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4SfHHhoc_8
                                    http://www.andrasszieberthtraining.blogspot.com

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                                    • #38
                                      I sat on the following response for 24 hours.Since I feel just as strongly now as I did when I wrote it...apparently I need to post it.

                                      I was at the CURRENT 100dt 5 days ago and have the following things to say about some of the things posted on this thread:

                                      The bedding is up over his ankles.

                                      I’d have to pay $7 a bale here, in the middle of a hay shortage, to get the kind of hay he’s eating. I’d eat it myself. It doesn’t matter what the hay is like anyway. Don Kappler is tweaking the ration to match the nutrient profiles of the hay.

                                      The farrier’s shoeing schedule is posted on his website.

                                      Conflict of interest WHERE? When was the last time an AHS stallion even placed in the TOP THREE? 1995????????????? With the time, $ and resources my registry pours into this endeavor, year after year, after year, so that we don’t have to ship our stallion prospects back to Germany, it’s very clear TO ME you can’t buy your placing. Heaven forfend that a Hanoverian should actually do well at this test now. The conspiracy theorists will have a FIELD DAY. There is a grassy knoll over every ridge in this particular zip code of cyberspace.

                                      Edgar, as an active, very vocal member of the AHS board, and a member of the executive committee, has done more on this subject than anyone not closely involved in the registry will EVER KNOW. A whole LOT of people put month’s worth of time, thought, and effort into making this test a good one. "Good" doesn't mean my stallion passes. "Good" means he was given the chance to succeed.

                                      Ultimately, no one held a gun to my head to send my stallion. I don’t ‘do” the blame game, and neither do I abdicate my responsibilities as the stallion owner, and an active, interested party. And the last time I bought into a “whisper down the lane” game on the internet was never.

                                      The poisonous, negative energy on this board just oozes off the monitor into my lap.
                                      "No matter how cynical I get its just not enough to keep up." Lily Tomlin

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        "I may be reading this wrong but the report cited on page 7 of the previous thread said

                                        "We did independently verify that the horse was "chased" by an ATV."

                                        Thus, it seems that this did occur. "

                                        EAH, exactly! And, yet we have Sonesta calling names saying I'm clueless. We can all figure it out - threats, name calling, strong arming and sweep it under the carpet mentality is still happening.

                                        Did you also catch the part in the report where neither the AHS or the ISR/Oldna would cooperate with the investigation?

                                        But I have made it clear that if the problems are resolved, that I would be a supporter as I used to be.

                                        Also, as szipi stated, there were a few people, myself included, that did try and work through the channels and were subsequently threatened with lawsuits. It was only after going public despite the threats that anything was done.

                                        AHF, I am glad to hear of your positive comments regarding the current test. I think, in large part, you can thank a few people who had the courage to stand up and fight. I do think it is sad, however that you think the Federation's independent findings is the equivalent to "whispering down the lane". Instead of upholding the integrity of what organization we have in this country, you are dismissing their oversight abilities and trying to render integrity useless as it pertains to keeping high standards for our country's breeding efforts.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          You know, that test was then. This test is now.

                                          You guys need to move on.

                                          Since you are all so determined to drag the people that run the tests through the mud, perhaps you should all go to the testing right now and find/fabricate new dirt on the situation there. Then come back and spread it all over public boards for everyone else to help gossip and blow out of proportion.

                                          At least THEN it would be a relevant thread for a change.
                                          ***************************
                                          Quality European Warmbloods
                                          www.centrelinefarm.ca
                                          ***************************

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