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need your opinion

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  • need your opinion

    Is it "wrong" to use one of the WB "big guns" on an off breed mare, specifically an APHA mare. She is a very nice mare, not the typical "stock" type but I had one person today tell me that I would be wasting my money no matter how nice the foal turned out. The foal is for me, personally and after an exhausting search some of the big boys will fit her well, so I got to thinking, why not?
    I'm thinking specifically about Jazz for a dressage baby.

  • #2
    I think it's ridiculous to NOT go for The Best if it's a foal for you to keep.

    You like the mare, you think she is worth breeding, why would you breed for anything less than The BEST match you could find for her? Registries regardless, it's about breeding the best to the best, and like to like.

    I also think that someday, eventually (though prolly not in my lifetime) someone is going to wake up and realize that not all Paints and QH are stock type and they DO have something of value to add to genetics. But, that's just me.

    THIS is also not the best place to ask questions like this. THIS particular forum has some of the top WB breeders in the US, and in fact, several from all over the world. There is a huge bias against anything American bred, be it QH APHA, Morgan etc. This is NOT your typical sporthorse breeders' board, it's more like the creme-de-la-creme. I would *expect* them to be full of wonderful pride about their breeds, registries and horses.

    But most are going to not be open to the non-traditional sporthorse.
    InnisFailte Pinto Sporthorses & Coloured Cobs

    Bits are like cats, what's one more? (Petstorejunkie)


    • #3

      very well said as I am one of those people that bred an Appendix QH to a Hanoverian. The baby is for my own personal use and I just love my mare. She is well bred and has great looks and conformation. Im looking for a nice hunter and both mare and stallion show this quality.


      • #4
        PP hit the nail right on the head! But not all of us have the luxury of super nice super bred WB mares at our finger tips, and like you said, this foal is for you, so who cares what they think.

        Jazz is spectacular, and he certainly makes movers, but as a warning for you he tends to make hotter babies.

        I recently found Liberty Gold again, and wow! I would at least take a look at him. http://www.hiltonfarm.com/liberty-gold/ He is a nice even build, so I think he could cross well with many types of mares. And a good mind!

        Good luck again!!! Do for yourself and the betterment of the horses. Dont sell yourself or your mare short.
        "Opportunity is missed by most people because it comes dressed in overalls and looks like work." *Thomas Edison
        A champion is a dreamer that refused to give up!!


        • Original Poster

          Hot is OK

          My mare is a babydoll and frankly she could use a little spice .
          I did look at LG, he is very nice but I think Jazz will do her just a bit better.
          Thanks guys.


          • #6
            I am not a "WB" person per se, we raise mostly sporthorse appaloosas, although I am going to try crossing a Oldenburg mare with an arab this year. However, I will say to consider two things. Most "paints" are stock type, or come from stock type, therefore have those genes. The stock type/WB crosses I have seen tend to be "nice guys" in terms of disposition, but also tend to be not put together terribly well. I know a nice QH breeder that over the years crossed a few of her nice mares on some very nice WB's and the product was not outstanding. The second to consider is the future. Although you say you are going to keep the foal, if somehow you cannot a registered Paint (assuming your mare is registered here) will be worth more, especially if a filly, than a WB cross that is not able to be put into a regular WB registry studbook. Personally, I would probably be looking at a really NICE TB for this mare. But at the same time, I understand where you are coming from. So in that case I would try and find a WB stallions that has proven to cross well onto our "american type" horses. If your mare has more TB blood than stck type that will help to insure a better cross. So look for nice WB's that have provven themselves crossing onto your type/bloodlines, which may mean that some of the "big names" have not proven themselves since many people aren't going to breed to them if they are breeding soemthing other than another WB or TB. Just my two cents worth, but not trying to discourage you!!!


            • Original Poster

              I hear ya Shawnee

              I have considered a bunch of guys in the past month. I DONT, DONT, DONT want any chance of getting a hunter mover, so a TB is not happening (and I've looked at frozen guys approved with the various WB registries, actually there was this one, a chestnut that move very dressagey but I decided against him...but I can't remember why) . APHA is not of any interest either, so that does not influence me with this baby. I have nothing against hunters per se but I just have no interest in them so "my daddy" must either jump the moon (big arena, big sticks) or better yet, move like a dressage horse extraordinaire
              My biggest concern is using frozen with a maiden so I may end up with one of the "cooled" guys for this first baby. Holy Cow, this stallion shopping it just too complicated. I've been a stallion owner for too long, I guess. Maybe I should just buy Bon Balou and get it over with!!!! Yeah right. I like that youngster a lot.


              • #8
                If it were me, I would be looking at Holsteiners then. I think their body type is a better choice than a lot of Hanoverians, Oldenburgs etc. Plus, the Holsteiners seem overall to be better jumpers (as a whole in the breed)


                • #9
                  I am not sure how it could be wrong, if you are breeding for yourself and are planning to give the offspring a home.
                  But the OP got me thinking. I had a grade mare that I used to event on when I was a kid, Tb cross. I planed on breeding her to a Trak for size, jump, and movement. I ended up not being able to do so, but I did end up buying one of his fillies. Often wonder what the cross would have been like. When I was young it was very sad because the mare meant the world to me, but now that I am older and have learned more I am suspicious of what the cross would have resulted in.
                  So my question is to the OP, you obviously have expected standards for the offspring as you are spending a fair amount to get the best sire, will you be happy if the cross results in a very average horse? Any cross might end up that way and I do not think that just because a horse is “well bred” entitles it to greatness, but is your mare going to bring the jump or movement that you want? If yes, that will be interesting to see how the different types work together. If the answer is no just wondering what the philosophy is behind the choice of breeding instead of buying a really nice weanling for the same price.


                  • #10

                    Originally posted by paintjumper View Post
                    My mare is a babydoll and frankly she could use a little spice .
                    I did look at LG, he is very nice but I think Jazz will do her just a bit better.
                    Thanks guys.
                    You said "do" her better....

                    Teasing! (did that make me look 10?) haha. Jazz is super amazing! I love him! You must share pictures when the foals born!
                    "Opportunity is missed by most people because it comes dressed in overalls and looks like work." *Thomas Edison
                    A champion is a dreamer that refused to give up!!


                    • Original Poster

                      she is actually quite nice

                      I have been offered really good money for her by various other breeders that have met her.......so it is not just "barn blindness". She would have been even better had she not gotten hurt.
                      Vita....that was funny, I did not realize how that sounded
                      I will keep you posted how things go. I am pretty excited.


                      • #12
                        Please don’t get me wrong, I am not saying she isn’t nice.
                        Put it this way, Salito is a son of Stakkato standing at Spruce Meadows. Very nice horse! But I very much doubt you would find a dressage breeder using him. Likewise you would not want to use a “jump killer” dressage horse on a jumper mare.
                        You described your mare as a jumper type, regardless of breeding, would she be the best for producing a dressage horse?
                        so I got to thinking, why not?
                        I assumed you were looking for ideas about this cross. I know there is some prejudice on this board. But putting that aside there are still consideration about any cross giving you the outcome you want.
                        This is kind of like a woman going in to apply for a non traditional job. Did she not get the job because she is a woman, or just not the right person for the job. The easy/quick answer is to assume that it was because she was a woman...or that it is because your horse is not a Warmblood.
                        Last edited by stoicfish; Jan. 31, 2010, 03:32 PM.


                        • Original Poster

                          You can have both in the same horse

                          a jumper and dressage horse. That is what a bunch of the Holsteiners are and why I really like Bon Balou . The reason I am going for dressage is because that is where I am heading. Jumping is in MY past and this will be my baby so we will see how things go. I've been breeding long enough to know you gather all the info you can, add a little heart (and maybe your gut) and hope for the "foal gods" to give you the nod. Wish me luck!


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by paintjumper View Post
                            a jumper and dressage horse. That is what a bunch of the Holsteiners are and why I really like Bon Balou . The reason I am going for dressage is because that is where I am heading. Jumping is in MY past and this will be my baby so we will see how things go. I've been breeding long enough to know you gather all the info you can, add a little heart (and maybe your gut) and hope for the "foal gods" to give you the nod. Wish me luck!
                            I totally wish you luck and the best of outcomes.

                            But just because I am evil by nature


                            • Original Poster


                              I want mine to look just like that except with that toby color and different plumbing........I would like a filly please.............foal gods??? Are you listening wherever you are???


                              • #16
                                I think there is misconception that APHA breeders for SPORT don't know the lines behind what they are using. A bulldog isn't going to just 'pop up.' There are several lines that are uphill, fancy moving, and have value for sport.

                                I went the opposite and used an APHA stallion on my Sport mare. The resulting foal was and is gorgeous. I researched the stallion a long, LONG time. His lines are known for round, uphill movers, with a very baroque build and type. The colt was everything I could have wished for--except the external plumbing. My vet, who breeds Hannoverians, kept referring to the colt as "the buckskin WB" colt. And really, really did not believe me that he was 1/2 APHA.

                                I am the last person to use a bulldog type, or--worse IMO--a downhill, wasp-waisted "Hunter" type--to breed for dressage. But there are some lines out there that are just fabulous movers.

                                I wish I could find the link to the b&w guy that Reg did a whole series of photos of. He's a prime example.

                                I think it's PERFECTLY VALID to *ask* if a potential breeder knows the lines. But one shouldn't assume that APHA = downhill/bulldog/waspwaisted whatever. There is much variation in the breed, and the smart breeder picks the right lines for the PURPOSE they have in mind.

                                And--FWIW, I absolutley, positively think this board is an AMAZING coalition of breeders, with INCREDIBLY vast knowledge they are willing to share. I LOVE that each is passionate about their breed/type etc. I just don't think it's *typical* of Sporthorses in the US. It's rather, quite extraordinary.
                                InnisFailte Pinto Sporthorses & Coloured Cobs

                                Bits are like cats, what's one more? (Petstorejunkie)


                                • #17
                                  I think there is nothing wrong with it. In fact I would say if you are going to do some wild outcross go with something ubber-proven like Jazz or Weltmeyer.
                                  Marion at Cocollala Creek did just that-I don't think she's regretted it...
                                  In term of frozen semen, from what I know Jazz is one of the good ones out there.
                                  Have fun!
                                  Like us on Facebook


                                  • Original Poster

                                    Thanks guys

                                    One to Jazz and one to Bon Balou! Now that worry is over, on to worrying about getting them in foal and then to worrying about maidens foaling!! Piece of cake!
                                    Now I have just got to make myself not read all the horror stories about foaling this year!!! What did I do when I foaled out 12 a year!!???


                                    • #19
                                      I spent 10k one year on frozen......on a maiden and a proven. No babies. You would be very close to buying that Jazz baby with that amount of $$$$. If you are flush go right ahead. I also remember not to long ago a Sandro Hit x AQHA on warmbloods for sale. Cheap. Didn't sell for a long time. I wonder if it ever did.


                                      • Original Poster

                                        The baby is NOT for sale

                                        Now I know breeding is like pitching for pennies, so no baby may happen, but if it is good, and it should be, I will be happy.