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Ahh ... interesting ... Australian owner/breeder challenging JC Live Cover rule ...

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  • Ahh ... interesting ... Australian owner/breeder challenging JC Live Cover rule ...

    via the judicial system ...

    http://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/v...ic.php?t=26921

    Lots of interesting posts and also some very interesting links to various articles and the proceedings as they are unfolding

    I keep hoping that in my lifetime, we will see the abolishment of the Live Cover mandated rule - perhaps this will be the impetus that puts the ball in motion for all Jockey Clubs around the globe ...
    www.TrueColoursFarm.com
    www.truecoloursproducts.com

    True Colours Farm on Facebook

  • #2
    I've never understood, with all the technology surrounding establishing parentage on foals, why the JC sticks to this rule. Perhaps some TB race people will reply to this post. I'm assuming there is some economic reason for it?

    The risk to the stallion with live cover, having to transport mares with valuable foals at foot, expense to the mare owner, etc., it just doesn't make sense.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Go Fish View Post
      I've never understood, with all the technology surrounding establishing parentage on foals, why the JC sticks to this rule. Perhaps some TB race people will reply to this post. I'm assuming there is some economic reason for it?
      You are correct, the reason that the JC sticks to live cover is 100% due to economic concerns. Nobody in the TB industry disputes the technology.

      There was a seminar given by Dr. Twink Allen at Keeneland this past fall on this very subject. The bottom line is that Thoroughbred breeding and sales are big business in central KY, and everyone is scared to death that allowing AI will destroy that business here.
      *Absolut Equestrian*

      "The plural of anecdote is not fact...except in the horse industry"

      Comment


      • #4
        The big subject on the link that was posted is also about "diluting the genetic pool", which I think is a gross misrepresentation of facts. AI does not dilute the gene pool, rather is broadens it - the more horses available to breeding, the bigger the potential gene pool combinations because now all the stallions in Great Britain, France and Australia would now be open to US and Canadian breeders, and vice verse; with the live cover rule, a breeder here would have to ship their mare over there. Otherwise, they are restricted to what's here and usually to what's fairly near by.

        The other side of the coin is that they're afraid everyone will want to breed to one particular stallion. That may or may not be true. For a while there, everyone loved the Cat and sons. Next year it will be some other favourite, so not sure the rush to one stallion will be an ongoing thing. It might for the first few years, but then people will settle as they get used to the idea of shopping world-wide for the the right racing stallion for their mare.

        The more stallions offered to the breeders (world-wide), the bigger and stronger the gene pool, the more diverse the possibilities and the better the quality of breeding available to TB racing breeders.

        They should study other breeds on that whole concept, since the Arabian industry very nearly imploded on itself until the market opened up to European bred Arabians which once again strengthened the genetic blood stock.

        Expense with regards to shipping of semen is minor and not even a relevant point. Shipping frozen semen from Europe is not expensive - maybe $750 round trip. Certainly a heckuva lot less than shipping a mare and/or mare-foal from Seattle to New York to the stud, plus daily board and care fees, and then shipping her all the way back home, hoping she doesn't lose the embryo on the way.

        I agree with Fairview - shipping and boarding is big extra income for the industry that they want to protect. I think, if the tightwads were really interested in protecting the TB blood stock, they need to look much closer at opening up the gene pool. The other aspects of the (boarding, shipping) business will just need to adjust with the times.
        Practice! Patience! Persistence!
        http://www.mariposasporthorses.com/
        https://www.facebook.com/MariposaSportHorses/

        Comment


        • #5
          Agree with Rodawn and FHC.

          The real reason AI is just not happening is because of the business the boarding barns bring in. Lowering the gene pool and over breeding are not the real issues. There was supposed to be so many people not covering their mares in 2009 and when I looked at all the mare returns for Ireland didn't seem to be the case. Staggering numbers for a small island.

          The gene pool would open up. You could cover you're mare in America with Monsun if you so desire. You could search anywhere for bloodlines you wish to improve and compliment your mares. Well smart and clever breeders would. Maybe not so much with the "lets just make a quick buck breeders." How you're supposed to make any money by covering your mare with a stallion that will potentially have 200 foals on the ground in any given year is beyond me, but there you go.

          Beyond stud fees, farms make huge bucks by boarding mares sometimes year round. The big farm here, that we shall not speak it's name, makes a serious amount of money by having horses all over Europe coming to be bred. Bring in AI and they have quite a bit of real estate to be sold and that's no joke.

          I got into a discussion on this topic on a TB board a little while ago. Most of the people on the board don't own horses and simply wanted AI because it was just so darn easy. I spelled out that AI isn't as easy as you all think. Most of us here on the sporthorse board know how easily it all goes pear shaped. Semen deliveries ending up lord knows where, dodgey semen, vet can't get to you,and one t isn't dotted correctly and customs strips the semen off you at the airport ( my personal favorite!).

          That being said, it might actually stabalize these big huge books when people can make decisions based worldwide. I just don't know, but I think the option should be there.

          Terri
          COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

          "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.

          Comment


          • #6
            Yes, it's true that the various forms of AI would definitely affect the economics of thoroughbred breeding for racing, but I have to point out some downsides to it.

            1) The average fertility of thoroughbreds is relatively low. Some figures that have been thrown out are that only about 60% of TB breedings result in live foals as it is. It seems to be fairly well proved that live cover is "more effective" in getting pregnancies than the various forms of AI, as well as being less expensive. While I agree that AI might preserve some of the more infertile lines by concentrating semen or allowing petri dish fertilization of eggs, on average do we want to preserve lines that cannot perpetuate themselves naturally?

            2) I disagree that AI would benefit the breed by spreading genes worldwide. As it is, there are hundreds of regional lines, many from less than the very best runners. Stallions have to be at least adequate racers to get mares as it is. These less than great stallions can produce superior performers. I'm thinking particularly of Cee's Tizzy out in California who is the sire of Tiznow. Another example would be Slew City Slew. Those regional differences are vital in preserving lines that aren't necessarily "Kentucky quality." What happens now is that the actual import and export of breeding stock is based on performance in the shed. Good breeders may end up in Kentucky, while lesser breeders may be exported to Turkey and Korea. But the genes of the exports are still there to be re-imported later. (South America is a good example of that.) If anyone with access to 100k can buy semen from the top studs worldwide, then the concentration of those sire lines will become even greater than the existing situation with shuttle stallions. So instead of having several thousand (or more) breeding stallions, the racing industry will end up like the Holsteiners with only one or two really productive lines and all the others will die out. Unless regional breeding is preserved, there is too much chance that the gene pool will become too concentrated on whatever is currently in fashion for the sales ring.
            "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
            Thread killer Extraordinaire

            Comment


            • #7
              But 'regional stallions' in the US tend to be 'sons-of' (and not the best sons-of), so I don't know that it actually promotes genetic diversity. You can go anywhere and find a third-rate son/grandson of Storm Cat or Mr. P or Seattle Slew.

              Allowing AI could help the cause of the true alternative stallion -- the stallion who is a total outcross or has hard-to-find bloodlines.

              AI could also help promote TBs for sport. Most racing farms can't be bothered to collect (I've looked into this) and don't offer a discount for non-racing offspring (this happens in other countries). Which puts a number of TB sires who might be good for sporthorses out of reach of the sporthorse breeder.

              In the UK and Ireland, dual-and multi-purpose stallions still exist because there's nothing more than a few hours' drive away. You can bring your mare over for live cover, then bring her home. This is simply not the case in much of the US.

              I'm looking forward to the day when the JCs worldwide join the 20th century. Never mind that we're already in the 21st. There is nothing new or unknown about AI and the associated technology.

              But we're talking about the state of Kentucky here. The state where they built a Museum of Creationism.

              Comment


              • #8
                I believe it would be very good for the genetics. It would make it worth while particularly for a country like Australia, whose use of the top sires, is governed by whether they are shuttle stallions or not. Also, I can straight away think of 7 USA stallions who I will immediatly use, none of them mainstream,but all suitable for my breeding program.
                www.australiancolouredperformancehorses.com.au

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
                  1) The average fertility of thoroughbreds is relatively low. Some figures that have been thrown out are that only about 60% of TB breedings result in live foals as it is. It seems to be fairly well proved that live cover is "more effective" in getting pregnancies than the various forms of AI, as well as being less expensive.
                  That 60% is all horses, not just TBs.
                  Live cover is definitely not more effective than AI, and when you have to send a mare out - board, shipping, nursemares and the risk at haing your mare not at home where she is most comfortable, live cover is WAY more expensive.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Absolut Equestrian View Post
                    You are correct, the reason that the JC sticks to live cover is 100% due to economic concerns. Nobody in the TB industry disputes the technology.

                    There was a seminar given by Dr. Twink Allen at Keeneland this past fall on this very subject. The bottom line is that Thoroughbred breeding and sales are big business in central KY, and everyone is scared to death that allowing AI will destroy that business here.
                    This post pretty much sums it up.

                    AI for TBs gets debated endlessly online as if "someone" somehow needs to be convinced that it's a good thing.

                    The bottom line is that the "someone" in charge doesn't care. The only entity that can change the rule is the Jockey Club and since they have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo, AI is not going to happen.

                    Vineyridge, Slew City Slew is not a regional sire. He stands at Airdrie Farm in Midway, KY and has for many years.
                    www.laurienberenson.com

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      That 60% is all horses, not just TBs.
                      You beat me to it Darlyn .... I was going to post the exact same thing ...

                      It seems to be fairly well proved that live cover is "more effective" in getting pregnancies than the various forms of AI, as well as being less expensive.
                      Hogwash. I dont know of any data that supports more / easier pregnancies with Live Cover rather than AI. As well - if we are talking shipping a mare from 30-60 minutes away, getting her covered and bringing her home again - I agree - it would be cheaper, but if you are talking shipping hundreds or thousands of miles - no way. AI will win hands down from a cost perspective.

                      There are several TB stallions I would use for one of my mares in TX and CA. Would I ship her there with a foal at side to get covered? Not on your life but would I breed to them if AI was permitted? In a heartbeat ...

                      Considering that many (all???) of the "old boys" that have the mega huge spreads in KY also hold prominent positions on the JC board of directors, it is going to be one of those "over my dead body" scenario's to get ANY of them to get dragged into the 21st century and if anyone tries, it will be accompanied with a lot of kicking and screaming to be sure ...

                      Other than the loss of revenue for said mega huge farms that have hundreds of stalls for visiting mares, and the accompanying fallout for the service sectors that support these large farms that have the mares coming to visit for foaling and/or rebreeding ( vets, blacksmiths, vanning companies, feed companies, etc, etc) are the financial implications for the State itself. The taxes on the revenues collected that go into the State coffers and also most importantly - the State run breeders incentives programs that necessitate the mare foaling in that State to participate in those programs

                      So you can also bet your bottom dollar that if there is a whiff of anything like this being passed, the JC board of directors will call upon their friends and allies in the Senate and explain the serious implications of having anything like this pass and everything from National Security and Im sure to the Taliban (and I am saying that tongue-in-cheek by the way ... ) will be cited as reasons for never allowing the Live Cover rule to ever be abolished

                      Its a shame. There is NO reason why the large farms and / or any Stallion Owner could not set their own parameters and rules for breeding to their stallion(s), as in "If you want to breed your mare to Fluffy the Wonder Stallion, we are offering Live Cover only and your mare MUST be shipped to our farm for breeding otherwise we will have to regretfully decline servicing your mare at this time"

                      That would be the logical resolution to this issue but unfortunately I dont believe that logic will enter into any part of this - now or ever ...

                      But what happens if/when the Australian courts find in favor of the plaintiff? That would open up Pandora's box for another "trade related" lawsuit against the American (and other ) JC's for stifling the Australian's ability to trade and sell on the world stage. Once a court precedent has been set to allow AI in Australia (if it does in fact get passed) then the American JC is going to have one helluva'n interesting and expensive battle on their hands trying to explain their stupid gene-pool-limiting rationale and once that is thrown out as absolute bunk, how they will address and win the trade related lawsuit launched against them

                      And this - BTW - has been addressed (and lost) in North America before

                      I was very much involved in this one back in 2000-2001 when Lauren Efford of Goldhope Farm bred some TB mares AI to a TB stallion, declared on the paperwork that they had been shipped to Texas and were bred Live Cover, and when it was discovered 2+ years later that was not the case, the JC yanked the registration papers on all of them - including the colt that I had bought from Lauren that was now no longer registerable

                      She did take this to court and used the "limitation of trade" argument as well, and she lost against the Jockey Club.

                      I dont know if it would be different now, or if a precedent is set first in another country, if that would then put a North American lawsuit against the JC into a different light

                      It will definately be interesting to watch how this all unfolds, and what follow up lawsuits then emerge if he is successful in Australia ...
                      www.TrueColoursFarm.com
                      www.truecoloursproducts.com

                      True Colours Farm on Facebook

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        This has to happen just for the sake of these numerous foals that are being pulled away from their dam and send to thrash so their dams could be used as surrogate mare for those valuable TB foals.
                        Suzanne
                        bloomingtonfarm.com
                        Breeder of Royal Dutch Sport Horse

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #13
                          Here are links to the stories / court documents on the North American case(s). I dont know if the same arguments are being used in Australia or if he is trying a different approach instead ...

                          http://www.courts.state.pa.us/oppost.../s04004_02.pdf

                          http://www.acba.org/scripts/cr2br.pl...e/02051703.art

                          http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...-court?id=6867

                          http://www.sptimes.com/News/053001/n...s_briefs.shtml

                          http://www.paed.uscourts.gov/documen...s/05D0442P.pdf
                          www.TrueColoursFarm.com
                          www.truecoloursproducts.com

                          True Colours Farm on Facebook

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            good grief viney. i suspect you really do know your stuff, but it wasn't at all evident in that post.

                            you need a much better grip of what ai has done for the sport world, how it has worked and what the state of the holsteiner breed is before throwing out hogwash like that. your analagous comments were nonsense.

                            yes, we propagate lineages with known low fertility, and then jump them at the olympics. because with the current breeding technology, we can. this isn't cattle breeding, where fertility is a huge consideration and two missed cycles puts a breeding cow on the hamburger truck. there are genetics which can be difficult to reproduce, but are worth a lot of work trying, because they are otherwise valuable when they are successfully passed down. there is also a possibility of a low fertility stallion having sons with improved fertility, depending on the mare as well as other factors. and all this in the sport world does not usually have the larer price tags attached that many of the racing breedings do. so yes, a top performer with poor fertility? let's ai with that stallion!

                            the holsteiner issue is quite separate and perhaps for another thread, but briefly, ai has absolutely allowed global spread of genetics such that in places where they can actually figure out how to use them (like la silla or zangersheide or vdl, but not yet the usa) ai facilitates propagation of different lineages within a breed. indeed, as has been posted not long ago, the holsteiner stallion singulord joter was bred this way in south america and has been identified and used back in holstein with great success. the 'satelite station' accomplishing something which can feed back to the 'headquarters' if you like, and from there back out to the rest of the world. all made possible by ai. (actually, there was a stallion from the 'r' line approved in america this year which the verband indicated may have a similar course ahead of him as the foals get seen).

                            if there are good reasons to avoid ai in the tb world, these weren't them. i'm afraid your arguments were thinner than a soup made out of the shadow of a chicken that died of starvation.
                            Hidden Pearl Farm

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by bloomingtonfarm View Post
                              This has to happen just for the sake of these numerous foals that are being pulled away from their dam and send to thrash so their dams could be used as surrogate mare for those valuable TB foals.
                              This kind of uninformed hysteria mongering makes me want to grind my teeth.

                              How many is "numerous", bloomingtonfarm? Do you have any idea what the real numbers are? Or what actually happens to the foals whose dams are used as surrogates when TB mares die? Oh wait, they are "send to thrash". Right, that's it.
                              www.laurienberenson.com

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Wait, the words 'logical' and 'jockey club' used in the same sentance? I'm so confused! Lol
                                Different Times Equestrian Ventures at Hidden Spring Ranch
                                www.DifferentTimesEquestrianVentures.com

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by LaurieB View Post
                                  Vineyridge, Slew City Slew is not a regional sire. He stands at Airdrie Farm in Midway, KY and has for many years.
                                  I know he stands in Kentucky, but from what I gather, he isn't considered an "elite" level stallion. He's a breed to race sire and most of his get end up doing regional racing. He has very little appeal in the sales ring or so it would seem from what people say about him.

                                  Although he is very high on most "best values" lists. . .
                                  "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                                  Thread killer Extraordinaire

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by LaurieB View Post
                                    This kind of uninformed hysteria mongering makes me want to grind my teeth.

                                    How many is "numerous", bloomingtonfarm? Do you have any idea what the real numbers are? Or what actually happens to the foals whose dams are used as surrogates when TB mares die? Oh wait, they are "send to thrash". Right, that's it.
                                    Well I have no idea LaurieB how many, no idea at all. I don't know anything about TB races.

                                    Just read about a shelter who were trying to find home to some foals, less than a month of age because their mom were used to replace TB mares so they could be shipped to the stud farm without the foals. They had 6 or 7 then but where trying to buy some more if they could find help. It had to do with the insurance cie. Anyway these shelters were buying them at the meat auction and were trying to find people willing to commit to these foals as they needed a lot of care.

                                    So if this is very unusual well you get me relief and I am glad to know now that these were only exception, not something that we see on a regular basis. But still.
                                    Suzanne
                                    bloomingtonfarm.com
                                    Breeder of Royal Dutch Sport Horse

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Quote:
                                      Originally Posted by LaurieB
                                      This kind of uninformed hysteria mongering makes me want to grind my teeth.

                                      How many is "numerous", bloomingtonfarm? Do you have any idea what the real numbers are? Or what actually happens to the foals whose dams are used as surrogates when TB mares die? Oh wait, they are "send to thrash". Right, that's it.

                                      Just read about a shelter who were trying to find home to some foals, less than a month of age because their mom were used to replace TB mares so they could be shipped to the stud farm without the foals.
                                      And THAT is one of the HUGE problems created by the stupid rule of NO AI with the JC. Live cover when you have to ship the mare and foal is NOT cheaper. It is also a much higher chance of disease, infection and death in the shipped mare and foal. It is a much higher chance of disease in the breeding stallion. It is a LIMITATION of genetics to what you can ship to. It can also be very, very, very dangerous for the stallion (to be kicked), the mare (to be bitten or otherwise injured) and traumatic for the foal - with all the shipping and potential exposure to disease.

                                      I don't breed TB's for racing, but I started my program with TB mares and went way, way away from the shortsighted TB breeding world.

                                      Plus, as has been said, horses in general, not just TB's have about a 60% conception rate.
                                      Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
                                      Now apparently completely invisible!

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Take a look at this pedigree:
                                        http://www.pedigreequery.com/aggadan

                                        He's now standing in Louisiana. He's got a lovely sport horse pedigree. Would he be given much of a chance to propagate if there weren't a need for regional stallions?
                                        "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                                        Thread killer Extraordinaire

                                        Comment

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