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Stallion Owners Misrepresenting Size

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  • #41
    I guess the fixation with size just amazes me...like the one person said...everyone had to have a 17:2 hander at one point but now people are thankfully looking at smaller horses...smaller at 16-16:2 or so still being very large when a large horse to your breed is 15 hands. Life would be SO much simpler if kids (and adults) could just ride a horse/pony appropriate to their size or age and one inch this way or that way was irrelevant...
    Not singling out this poster, but wanted to respond to the thinking of this post.

    This seems to miss the point about Honesty and Accurate Representation. It is not up to the stallion owner to lie about the height of their stallion because They don't think size matters, because it Might matter to the mare owner, and that is their prerogative.

    I might really like pink. You might hate pink, and only have red items for sale. But you can't start calling red items shades of pink so that I'll buy them, or because You think red is better and I Should be buying red instead of pink. It isn't up to You to decide what I should buy. It is the seller's responsibility to accurately represent their product (stallion) and let the buyer decide if that is what they want.

    The sad thing about assuming all stallion owners are lying by a couple of inches, is when you apply this reasoning to the HONEST stallion owners, because there are actually still a few of them... Now what are the honest stallion owners supposed to do, if they know everyone is going to assume they are lying and knock off a few inches, should they lie too?

    I don't understand the problem with the sticks. I'm with Formosus, double check them with a measuring tape. It's not that complicated to confirm the measurements are correct, and I'm really surprised that supposedly there is that much variation among sticks.

    I've seen some crazy creative advertising when it comes to heights. I've seen people put the height the horse "will" be, or even more ridiculous, the height it "should have been", such as "he was a maiden's first foal, he should have been a hand taller". I've also seen smaller warmbloods who weren't successful stallions in the warmblood world, suddenly be reinvented as pony stallions. A 15.2 hand stallion might be "16 hands and he throws big foals" one year, and "15 hands but he throws small foals" the next year.

    I suspect people will get tired of the dishonesty, and some sort of system will be devised whereby someone "official" is able to measure a horse and give it a certified height. (Perhaps a veterinarian.) I'm sure all of the DNA requirements came about similarly, from people being dishonest and misrepresenting their horses as registered or a certain bloodline, and enough people got sick of it.
    "No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible." George Burns

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    • #42
      Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center View Post
      Even with gettign heights correct for the ponies, many grow over. Why does there have to be a "gap" size. Why can't horses be like ponies in Small, Medium, and Large Horse Hunters? And not only for the Adults, but these kids outgrowing their ponies should not have to make the jump over no man's land.
      That would be nice. Then I would've had a larger market for the 15 hh Hanoverian/TB cross I bred. We used to joke that there was a mix up with the semen, since her mom is 15.2 1/2ish and her dad is 16.1. But she was super cute and flashy.

      Why is there such a demand for 17+ hh horses? It seems like people don't think that smaller horses are athletic, but I evented prelim with my mare, no problem.

      Comment


      • #43
        Being a pony breeder, and stallion owner I am the BIG stick user. I have two. I check and re-check all my ponies. One is the old fashioned wooden one from years ago and the other is the official one. Frankly I am proud to pull a stick out and measure my stallions. They are as advertised. Everyone needs the USEF stick. Its a must-have item!!!!
        Sandy
        www.sugarbrook.com
        hunter/jumper ponies

        Comment


        • #44
          The problem might be...

          The problem with what people think a horse can do (relative to its size) might just be one quandrant of the viscious circle. If they think a 15.2h horse is actually 16h, and they see a smaller horse (say a 15h horse-that they think is actually 15.2) not making a distance or whatever they think might be attributable to their size. They might say: Jeezz look at that 15.2 h horse struggling! I better get myself a horse that is at LEAST 16h and the viscious circle continues.

          I had a 17 hand gelding for sale years ago. Tons of people called. They all wanted to the tall 17 hands horse. Yup that is what they wanted! Absolutly. They would show up at the barn, I would pull George out of the stall and they would gasp! Ueuuhh no, not so interested-he's too tall. WTF! I said he was 17 h!!

          I saw Jappeloup in person, stood by him when I was talking to his groom back when he showed at Spruce Meadow in 1993 I think. That horse was about 15.2-I noticed that he was the same higth as my jumper (considerable more scope tho! ). Yet commentators or even written article would refer to him as the pony-size jumper. He was almost a full hand taller then a pony people!! But compare to the behemoth he was jumping agains (Big Ben at 17.2) he looked very small. So he was gesstimated to be anywhere from 14.3 to 15.1. Sooo-he could jump just as well.

          The reverse happens in the western world where most horses are on the smaller size. A friend was taking lessons on a 15.1 reining horse and the fellow students were impressed that she was riding "the really big horse-isn't he about 16h!?

          So as people get the wrong mental picture in their head about what a 16h horse really is they start to make wrong descisions about what they need and the viscious circle continues. I'm with the other posters that say: I stick to the honnest measurement in hope that one day the perceptions will be adjusted toward reality.
          Véronique
          www.FormosusSporthorses.ca
          Like us on Facebook

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          • #45
            That is why I always put Blue's height in direct cm. NO iffy "what ifs".... but, 1/2 the people cant do cm conversions!
            www.spindletopfarm.net
            Home of Puerto D'Azur - 1998 NA 100 Day Test Champion
            "Charcter is much easier kept than recovered"

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            • Original Poster

              #46
              Originally posted by pinecone
              The sad thing about assuming all stallion owners are lying by a couple of inches, is when you apply this reasoning to the HONEST stallion owners, because there are actually still a few of them... Now what are the honest stallion owners supposed to do, if they know everyone is going to assume they are lying and knock off a few inches, should they lie too?
              No, I don't think any of us are suggesting all stallion owners are lying by a couple of inches.
              That is not at all what my original post suggested. I'm saying (and the rest of us are also) that some do.
              Randee Beckman ~Otteridge Farm, LLC (http://on.fb.me/1iJEqvR)~ Marketing Manager - The Clothes Horse & Jennifer Oliver Equine Insurance Specialist

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              • #47
                Originally posted by pintopiaffe View Post


                It has been difficult for me to HONESTLY market to pony people because out of a 14h Morab mare my guy sired 16h. (no, really, with a real stick. ) Since the height is not quantitative, crossed to my 16h mare, he's had a couple of 15.3 & 16, and apparantly one 14.2 (though she was *just* three at that measurment, haven't heard where she is at four.) The Trak mare crossed w/ him same thing, a few big/size of mares, and one smaller.

                He does have some rather big horses close up (*Alladdinn, etc.) so it's not all that predictable. BUT--I try to let folks ride him, and feel how big he rides... his kids do too. If they take up your leg and are comfortable, what does the actual height matter? (Except, of course, ponies) We're just really in a 'tween' market, where when I was saying 15h got us more interest. I'll stick with being honest though.
                Aladdinn is like, 14.3. Maybe.

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                • #48
                  Originally posted by Formosus View Post
                  The problem with what people think a horse can do (relative to its size) might just be one quandrant of the viscious circle. If they think a 15.2h horse is actually 16h, and they see a smaller horse (say a 15h horse-that they think is actually 15.2) not making a distance or whatever they think might be attributable to their size. They might say: Jeezz look at that 15.2 h horse struggling! I better get myself a horse that is at LEAST 16h and the viscious circle continues.

                  I had a 17 hand gelding for sale years ago. Tons of people called. They all wanted to the tall 17 hands horse. Yup that is what they wanted! Absolutly. They would show up at the barn, I would pull George out of the stall and they would gasp! Ueuuhh no, not so interested-he's too tall. WTF! I said he was 17 h!!

                  I saw Jappeloup in person, stood by him when I was talking to his groom back when he showed at Spruce Meadow in 1993 I think. That horse was about 15.2-I noticed that he was the same higth as my jumper (considerable more scope tho! ). Yet commentators or even written article would refer to him as the pony-size jumper. He was almost a full hand taller then a pony people!! But compare to the behemoth he was jumping agains (Big Ben at 17.2) he looked very small. So he was gesstimated to be anywhere from 14.3 to 15.1. Sooo-he could jump just as well.

                  The reverse happens in the western world where most horses are on the smaller size. A friend was taking lessons on a 15.1 reining horse and the fellow students were impressed that she was riding "the really big horse-isn't he about 16h!?

                  So as people get the wrong mental picture in their head about what a 16h horse really is they start to make wrong descisions about what they need and the viscious circle continues. I'm with the other posters that say: I stick to the honnest measurement in hope that one day the perceptions will be adjusted toward reality.

                  I think this is accurate for a lot of folks.
                  Boomer sticked (with a metal one!) at 16.1H. He was a TB that was not super tall but has a substantial build on him. Folks that came to see him were often SURE he was more than 16.1H. Nope. Then there is the TB that was severely underweigh when she came here. She really is a not insignificant 16.3H, but didn't look it being so thin. Last time our farrier was here he looked at her and said "I know this mare is older and didn't grow but boy she looks big now. I don't remember her being that big." I think she just appears bigger as she no longer looks like an Angelfish. Said farrier is used to doing QHs...so used to generally smaller stockhorses. When he first started doing my young WB mare he thought she was huge. She is a hair under 16H...so smallish by WB standards....but old type build.....so tanker-ette. And then there is my 2 YO TB. He was 15.3 last time I measured him (might be 16H by now) and will be 2 in a couple weeks. Right now he is scrawny looking......long legs, no body.....but Boomer filled out at 5 to be pretty substantial and his momma is a tanker that looks like a WB....so he probably will not end up too delicate or small by 5. SInce the farrier thinks he looks big now he will think he is shoeing a moose in 3 years! Point is....perceptions "eyeballing" height can be skewed.....even with different weight on the same horse like the mare that was really thin.
                  Providence Farm
                  http://providencefarmpintos.blogspot.com/

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                  • #49
                    Just wanted to say that we have two pony stallions and both were officially measured during USDF competition by the show steward...both are actually card carrying members for the real pony fraternity. I expect that both will be measured again this season and continue to be measured until age eight if they continue to be shown in any pony division.

                    Misrepresenting height and bone are common in our breed also. It often seems to me that the smaller pony stallions go unused while the 'overhieght' stallions continue to find favor. And there are definitely several stallions on the market now who have shrunk over the years
                    "You can look at a horse and know what he/she seems to be; you can study the pedigree and know what the horse ought to be; but only the offspring can tell you what horse really is..."
                    Redbud Ranch

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                    • Original Poster

                      #50
                      Originally posted by Sugarbrook
                      Frankly I am proud to pull a stick out and measure my stallions. They are as advertised. Everyone needs the USEF stick. Its a must-have item!!!!

                      Randee Beckman ~Otteridge Farm, LLC (http://on.fb.me/1iJEqvR)~ Marketing Manager - The Clothes Horse & Jennifer Oliver Equine Insurance Specialist

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        This is such a great thread....it took me forever to read through everyone's posts! There are some very good points made here. There are so many people that misrepresent the size of their horses and not only stallion owners, but folks with horses for sale as well. It's really unfortunate when someone says their horse is 16.3 and it turns someone off as it maybe is too big for what they want......but then you find out after it sells to someone else, and you see the horse that it is really only 16 hands.......maybe!! I can't believe how many people think their horses are bigger than what they really are. 17 hands is one whopping horse!! I had one that measured that. He was WAY too big for me.
                        But there are so many people that don't own a stick!!! This is absolutley a MUST HAVE item in ANY barn!! Thanks for posting this thread!!!

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Its a bigger problem in Australia with dressage stallions rather than jumping but I think its funny to see the colts "shrink". Many stallions advertised as "expected to mature at 17hh", then a year later at 16.3hh and then finally they mature at 16.2hh. Or the people who are convinced that 170cm is 17hh when its actually 16.3hh.

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                          • Original Poster

                            #53
                            From what I reading, this is (unfortunately) more common than first thought. It's so deceiving, as so many mare owners are depending on the intregity and honesty of stallion owners to be completely up front with the height of their stallion.
                            Most of us have a good idea where the breaks in size are (visibly speaking) so we know where 14.2 is, 15 hands, 16 and so on. It's easy to say you need to go see them in person, but not if you live a half a world away, or several states away.
                            Randee Beckman ~Otteridge Farm, LLC (http://on.fb.me/1iJEqvR)~ Marketing Manager - The Clothes Horse & Jennifer Oliver Equine Insurance Specialist

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Originally posted by VirginiaBred View Post
                              No, I don't think any of us are suggesting all stallion owners are lying by a couple of inches.
                              That is not at all what my original post suggested. I'm saying (and the rest of us are also) that some do.
                              You may not think this is a widespread problem, but may of us do. So even if it's not what you intended in Your post, it is a problem many breeders Have run into. I was responding generally, not to your op specifically.

                              Formosus makes a great point. Dishonesty is such an issue in regards to misrepresentation of height, people may start to forget what a true 16 hand horse looks like!

                              The moral of the story is buy a stick and measure your horses, and then honestly represent them using these measurements!
                              "No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible." George Burns

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Originally posted by VirginiaBred View Post
                                From what I reading, this is (unfortunately) more common than first thought.
                                Yes, this is what we were saying. lol, I responded to your previous post and now I've read further to see this one. Disregard my previous response I suppose!
                                "No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible." George Burns

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                                • #56
                                  I must admit that this issue gets me frothing at the mouth a bit, but not because of SOs.

                                  People, what the heck are our "associations" supposed to do for us if not to resolve problems like this??????

                                  Why don't these new registeries take some initiative and provide a measurement recording service--and make it required of all mature breeding stock being inspected? Heck, they could CHARGE for it and make some money, too. That way, mares and stallions of mature ages could be some "official" height without having to show to be measured, right? And then, too, there would be a record over the years and generations so that, eventually, the registeries would be HELPING BREEDERS produce what they desire more consistently. I mean, isn't that the point?

                                  And the same applies to hunters: Why can't stewards at shows measure ponies who are not competing? There has to be a vet there anyway and there are other ways to get around cheating issues (like taking blood tests of non-showing horses--even doing soundness exams on them, if necessary). It would be a fee-for-service, after all--and isn't that what our "associations" are supposed to provide us with, SERVICES? So, provide the service of measuring non-showing ponies so that breeders can establish the size of breeding stock if they choose to. Charge us for it, but DO IT. It needs to be done!

                                  And how many centuries are going to have to pass before that "hony" division comes about? EVERYONE wants it, except the trainers and breeders who get the seats on the USHJA committees and can make killings off of selling the "right" sizes. My word, the whole hunter size thing is as much as example of artificially propped up markets as selling ostrich eggs in the nineties was. Everyone knows it isn't height but stride that makes the distances, but there is not one leader in our sport willing to do what it takes to get rid of the misconception (often sold as a bill of goods to inexperienced, uber-wealthy parents) and the gaping measurement hole.

                                  I wish we had the courage and coordination to go on strike. I wish pony breeders could get together and boycott the big shows' breeding divisions (or threaten to) and maybe simultaneously boycott inspections to get this issue addressed once and for all. Just the threat would probably get the power people to finally pay attention, I think...but they know we'll never get together enough to have real clout in ANY of our "associations."

                                  Think about it: What fact better illustrates disfunctional, politics-ridden, vested-interest driven, apathetic and/or intimidated/fearful member-based "associations" than PERPETUAL PROBLEMS, i.e. issues that everyone recognizes but go unresolved, decade after decade after decade. SHAME on all the committees and organizations who could and should address this. SHAME ON YOU ALL!!!
                                  Sportponies Unlimited
                                  Athletic Thoroughbred crosses for the highly motivated, smaller rider.

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                                  • #57
                                    I wish we had the courage and coordination to go on strike. I wish pony breeders could get together and boycott the big shows' breeding divisions (or threaten to) and maybe simultaneously boycott inspections to get this issue addressed once and for all. Just the threat would probably get the power people to finally pay attention, I think...but they know we'll never get together enough to have real clout in ANY of our "associations."

                                    Considering who a few of those that are the "power people" in the associations of which you speak are the same people who benefit immensely from these "artificially propped up markets" it is very, very unlikely that they would do anything to destroy what they have worked so hard to set up, institutionalize and benefit from. Don't get me wrong because I agree with you wholeheartedly on several points that you make and suggestions as to how to improve/rectify the situation. I just know having spoken with or dealt with a few of the individuals personally - no holes barred and gloves off - that you will need more than boycotts or even a changing of the guard to effect change.
                                    Ranch of Last Resort

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                                    • #58
                                      Originally posted by pwynnnorman View Post

                                      And the same applies to hunters: Why can't stewards at shows measure ponies who are not competing? There has to be a vet there anyway and there are other ways to get around cheating issues (like taking blood tests of non-showing horses--even doing soundness exams on them, if necessary). It would be a fee-for-service, after all--and isn't that what our "associations" are supposed to provide us with, SERVICES? So, provide the service of measuring non-showing ponies so that breeders can establish the size of breeding stock if they choose to. Charge us for it, but DO IT. It needs to be done!
                                      USEF offers a measurement card as a SERVICE to it's MEMBERS. So if you want a pony measured you need the pony recorded with USEF and the owner needs to be a member. It needs to be entered because it needs to be under the control of the assoc. and the show rules.
                                      There is nothing in the measurement rule that say the pony needs to actually compete in the show it's being measured at. Simply enter the pony in something, get it measured and scratch.
                                      Fan of Sea Accounts

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                                      • #59
                                        I have had plenty of ponies measured, Pine Tree. Your quickness to over-simplify issues and negativity about what is faced in the practical sense is just what prevents us from ever making progress. Why do you do that?

                                        For example, why not record the pony on-the-spot? Heck, take a digitial picture of it while you're at it. And if it's not showing, why need it be under show rules anyway? Establish a set of rules for measuring ponies regardless of whether they show or not, eliminate the unnecessary paperwork, use the technology available and let people GET ON WITH IT. Sheesh, it's not rocket science!
                                        Sportponies Unlimited
                                        Athletic Thoroughbred crosses for the highly motivated, smaller rider.

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                                        • #60
                                          ...

                                          Hello,

                                          This must be quite common these days because when people see
                                          Tacorde they say "He MUST be 18/19 hands !!" - yes - after
                                          they have seen some other 17.2 HH stallions. He IS 17.2 HH.
                                          (http://www.kvf.ca/tacorde.htm) The other stallions are also
                                          truly the height they are advertised at.

                                          For example, The Canadian Sport Horse Association does perform
                                          an Official stallion measurement and this is recorded and publicized.
                                          The Canadian Warmblood Association does not.

                                          Yours in sport,

                                          Lynn
                                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                          I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message...
                                          Suerte Hostage Crisis Survivor
                                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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